Everquest, what do you consider "bad" design concerning it?

[methoxetamine]

so its fun when u and a few buddies can shoot the **** while a ****** or two is timing his casts with his movement so he can see his parse number go up and the rest of the raid is playing normally

Brown welfare mindset. Those meter topping chads carried your soft *** you'd do well to not accuse them of being ******

[Kalarion]

I had two main gripes with EQ's design.

The first was the increasing and—as expansions continued to come out—totalizing focus on raids and other multi-group activities as the sole outlet for access to content. I like my content gated behind multiplayer play. I don't like it gated behind mob play. I like my content gated behind skillful play. I don't like it gated behind play that becomes a second job with no pay. Basically, I think all the high-end quests, including stuff like epics, should have been completable with a single group, or an extremely well-geared and -skilled smaller party.

The second was how loot worked. Long spawn windows with low chance for a named monster to spawn, with a small chance to drop required or desired items. This was especially aggravating for quests. Cool quests that rewarded interesting items and equipment for its level required drops that came from a mob that had a very low chance of spawning or were set on deliberately long forced respawn timers; one day, three days, a week. When the named did spawn, the quest item might have a 10% chance to drop. Or 5%. Or 1%. Most such quests effectively never got completed because the player would level faster than he could camp the required mob and gain the required drop. It's absolutely ******** and directly incentivizes the worst kind of grinding for levels over seeking out and conquering content. This is how you get a server full of max levels and the entire world outside the current high-level zones being a dead wasteland.

It's also an example by contrast of WoW genuinely moving the genre a step in the correct direction. Of course Blizzard ****** it up over time, but the idea of self-contained quests that are designed and resourced around your completing them when the rewards are actually relevant to you was a major move in the right direction.

I'm facing a similar situation right now in Monsters and Memories. I'm working on a quest that requires rare drops from spawns that may take anywhere from one to five hours to pop. I've spent upwards of eight hours camping these mobs. The mobs themselves can be soloed by level seventeen or so. If I spent the time camping them on xp instead, I could probably be level thirty (30)! The only reason the presumed reward for this quest is even relevant to me at this point is because I've purposely avoided going hard for xp/levels in order to do these camps and to allow Ghostcow to catch up to me. Now that he's caught up I'll probably just end up abandoning the quest... or complete it, after hours more work at max level, only to receive a silly curiosity of an item and a hollow pit in my stomach as I contemplate what I could have done with it if I actually got the **** thing at level twenty... or even level fifteen, with a good group.

This is one example I think Tweed has a point on when he talks about how MnM seems to be learning all the wrong lessons from EQ.

[Killagain665]

Everquest is why I hate Bards and think they should be removed from any serious or respectable RPG, videogame or otherwise.

But what about Fansy the Famous?

Everquest is why I hate Bards and think they should be removed from any serious or respectable RPG, videogame or otherwise.

[Olivine]

so its fun when u and a few buddies can shoot the **** while a ****** or two is timing his casts with his movement so he can see his parse number go up and the rest of the raid is playing normally

Brown welfare mindset. Those meter topping chads carried your soft *** you'd do well to not accuse them of being ******

tongue my anus you monkey ****** ****

[GhostCow]

tongue my anus

Gay

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

So Illiterate, a closet homosexual, and suffering from micro **** worry.

It is ok, you have a lot in common with most game developers these days, but better keep a look out on the "transition" urges, I am sure it is coming.

uh no, I'm not gay. I eat pussy for breakfast lunch and dinner, AND snack time.

you, on the other hand, are a little bottom *****

@Xenich

[Decline]

Diablo IV is everything EverQuest aspired to be but never could.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Diablo IV is everything EverQuest aspired to be but never could.

Including the romanticization of demonesses as dindus?

[methoxetamine]

uh no, I'm not gay. I eat pussy for breakfast lunch and dinner, AND snack time.

Sopranos | Uncle Junior likes going down to Boca (and other places)

[Xenich]

I had two main gripes with EQ's design.

The first was the increasing and—as expansions continued to come out—totalizing focus on raids and other multi-group activities as the sole outlet for access to content. I like my content gated behind multiplayer play. I don't like it gated behind mob play. I like my content gated behind skillful play. I don't like it gated behind play that becomes a second job with no pay. Basically, I think all the high-end quests, including stuff like epics, should have been completable with a single group, or an extremely well-geared and -skilled smaller party.

The second was how loot worked. Long spawn windows with low chance for a named monster to spawn, with a small chance to drop required or desired items. This was especially aggravating for quests. Cool quests that rewarded interesting items and equipment for its level required drops that came from a mob that had a very low chance of spawning or were set on deliberately long forced respawn timers; one day, three days, a week. When the named did spawn, the quest item might have a 10% chance to drop. Or 5%. Or 1%. Most such quests effectively never got completed because the player would level faster than he could camp the required mob and gain the required drop. It's absolutely ******** and directly incentivizes the worst kind of grinding for levels over seeking out and conquering content. This is how you get a server full of max levels and the entire world outside the current high-level zones being a dead wasteland.

It's also an example by contrast of WoW genuinely moving the genre a step in the correct direction. Of course Blizzard ****** it up over time, but the idea of self-contained quests that are designed and resourced around your completing them when the rewards are actually relevant to you was a major move in the right direction.

I'm facing a similar situation right now in Monsters and Memories. I'm working on a quest that requires rare drops from spawns that may take anywhere from one to five hours to pop. I've spent upwards of eight hours camping these mobs. The mobs themselves can be soloed by level seventeen or so. If I spent the time camping them on xp instead, I could probably be level thirty (30)! The only reason the presumed reward for this quest is even relevant to me at this point is because I've purposely avoided going hard for xp/levels in order to do these camps and to allow Ghostcow to catch up to me. Now that he's caught up I'll probably just end up abandoning the quest... or complete it, after hours more work at max level, only to receive a silly curiosity of an item and a hollow pit in my stomach as I contemplate what I could have done with it if I actually got the **** thing at level twenty... or even level fifteen, with a good group.

This is one example I think Tweed has a point on when he talks about how MnM seems to be learning all the wrong lessons from EQ.

Is the loot drop off that bad? I remember getting the pendant from the elemental in Sol A for my monk. It was way past my level by the time I got it, but... it was definitely an upgrade and filled in a need. I think that by the time I could camp it solo, most of SoL A was grey and only the elemental was light blue on the spawn. I guess it might have not been worth it if I was in a cutting edge group always doing the latest content focused to my need, but I remember it being still an important upgrade even though that was content 20 levels lower than me.

Is M&M following this concept of loot disparity or are they more tightly setting the upgrades and focus? While I like "rare" upon "rare" drop rates, I do agree that there should be some practicality to it. In fact, if some drops are extremely rare, they should have longer value in levels, understanding that the rarity of drop is the driver and so even though it may be on a lower level mob, it is still quite useful to a much higher level. In that design, I think it is rather cool as the one who gets "lucky" to get such a find "at" level feels like a god, but the item is still useful for much higher levels who persist.

[Xenich]

Diablo IV is everything EverQuest aspired to be but never could.

Only in the "loot chasing" game. I still stand by the fact that many subtle aspects of play in EQ (early EQ) were greatly important in play. I do get what you mean though, modern "interpretations" of what EQ was is definitely the focus of some adaptions (THJ, Quarm Emu, EQ Legends etc...), but I think they are their own focus, forcing EQ to be more like Diablo than what EQ was, which was a MUD (it was literally designed after and on a MUD platform).

EQ had a lot of subtly to its play. It had the mix of text adventure gaming of old, the MUD/MUSH, the concepts of AD&D, and that of the generic RT First person PC RPG games of old. EQ is a strong reflection of the 90's era of RPG gaming. Probably why I have such a fondness for it. Those games didn't hold your hand, they were brutal in their consequence, and they didn't care about peoples complaints about "their time", I mean... best way to avoid the complaint of "wasted time" on a game is simply not to play it, but for some reason EQ had a ton of addicted players who played obsessively, yet constantly complained about how it was a waste of time. I always found that odd...

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

uh no, I'm not gay. I eat pussy for breakfast lunch and dinner, AND snack time.

Sopranos | Uncle Junior likes going down to Boca (and other places)

Sopranos. :puke: Disgusting Western television series that glorifies crime, gangsters, and just rude behavior. And, just plain bad writing. Instead, you should be watching a good show like Naruto, which has action, funny, emotion, and has a good message

Naruto Opening 2 | Far Away

[Algol]

You must really like Everquest, bro.

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

You must really like Everquest, bro.

idk never played it but it looks pretty BAD

Extreme Peace: Charls GF Breakup Snippet - \u0022Bad News\u0022 #extremepeace #mde2 #milliondollarextreme

[Algol]

I'll be serious about the subject momentarily.

I played Everquest Classic I think around a year ago now (maybe longer) and I just couldn't really figure out what to do or why to do it. Also, if I remember right, it had a really archaic movement/look system. I don't know, maybe I should give it a shot again?

[anvi]

I didn't like how levels were the be all and end all. If you are level 9 and find a boss that's level 10 then you can have a really tough fight to take him down. And then there is a nice item to loot. But most people just grind their *** off to level 20 in no time, then go back and kill the level 10 in one hit. Now that item is no longer special. Everyone has it, and they are selling it cheap because it's no longer useful once you are level 30+. It's like each level you gain you make a huge chunk of the game world obsolete.

An obvious solution is level scaling but people hate that too. And you lose the sense of progression. But there are other solutions. Like one custom server had bosses called Elites or something. They dropped gear that would be good for the whole rest of the game. So even at level 10 you might get something you could use all the way to level 60. But it wouldn't let you engage after a certain level. So the elite at level 10 could only be engaged by level 10s and below. The level 20 elite needed level 20 max, etc.

I'll be serious about the subject momentarily.

I played Everquest Classic I think around a year ago now (maybe longer) and I just couldn't really figure out what to do or why to do it. Also, if I remember right, it had a really archaic movement/look system. I don't know, maybe I should give it a shot again?

It is so old it does a bad job of setting things up automatically. When you start you need to setup all kinds of stuff, it takes ages. Set your proper resolution, frame rate or the mouse is wonky, pick proper graphics settings, etc. Then you need to get to work on controls. Everything can be set up how you want but you have to do it all yourself. I think they finally set it up for WASD but the rest is batshit. Like auto run is numlock and a lot of stuff needs ctrl or shift, and they did mad **** like.. To strafe you can hold ctrl and left or right. But left or right is A or D. And Ctrl A does something annoying and Ctrl D disbands your group... So you have to change all that to not constantly screw you up.

That said it's still a great game and the controls are good once you set them up. The live game is not great though, the live game is a disaster. The emulators are the best.

[Xenich]

I'll be serious about the subject momentarily.

I played Everquest Classic I think around a year ago now (maybe longer) and I just couldn't really figure out what to do or why to do it. Also, if I remember right, it had a really archaic movement/look system. I don't know, maybe I should give it a shot again?

Controls are client dependent, so if you play older clients (p99 or other emus) some modern features are not present and don't work as well. Modern EQ clients have all the "3rd person" frills and function so they tend to be better right out of the box, or as Anvi said, can be configured with some effort.

Keep in mind, EQ was from an era where people still read the instruction manuals to play a game to figure out things that maybe weren't intuitive in normal play, so that is a limit to it. EQ did originally ship with an offline tutorial you could run which showed "basic" functions of play, but for the most part it was "read the manual" and figure out the rest. This also is a basic difference in games from that era. Many games required the player to "explore" the game and figure things out. So questing in early EQ was much like the old adventure games where you had to query with text input to see if it triggered something while paying attention to the responses. EQ actually had quite a few quests, but you had to explore and investigate to find them.

EQs base purpose of play is akin to older RPGs for its progression, which is killing mobs. This is the point (quests are for items, story, etc... not leveling even though the do offer some exp). You try to find mobs you can kill and use them as a means to level. Most items in EQ that drop have some use, be it crafting, quests, or as equipment. You would be surprised at how most things have a purpose or use, even though at first it looks like a bunch of junk. Release EQ didn't provide "hints" on this. You had to think logically about what dropped, pair it with some crafting use and then experiment with combines to make things. Modern EQ streamlined all this providing a crafting interface with all the preloaded recipes.

Everything in original EQ was a journey. Travel was slow, leveling was slow, zones were dangerous, mobs took time to kill and could run as fast or faster than default run speed, there was no map, and if you died you would end up back at a starting city having to go all the way back to your corpse "naked" to retrieve it which could take a hours depending on where you died. This is where class and race pros/cons came into play. Some classes had invaluable tools that helped with certain obstacles, some did not but had benefits in other areas and at different times. This is also why EQ was a "group" dependent game. You could solo in EQ (depending on class), but you had to figure out how to and it came with risks, but also rewards. That said, you were better off grouping with people to face various obstacles relying on each others strengths. Also, drops were not "vast", they were slowly earned and gear lasted over numerous levels, slowly building power.

The whole point of play was to go out and explore, figure things out, learn what you could do, etc... many aspects of play were organic in nature. For instance, Feign Death pulling was never intended to happen, it was a result of people learning mob behavior and how to leverage agro wiping with it to manipulate splitting mobs. Fear kiting, snare kiting, etc... were not intended in play, again... it was the result of players learning how to use the numerous spells and abilities to their advantage. In fact, kiting and FD was even "combated" by devs to try and stop it before they finally just embraced it as a play style because people kept finding ways to make it work.

As for if you should give it a try... here is what I would suggest. If you are playing an EMU, spend time reading up on how to properly setup your interface and controls. Read the manual or basic "game play" guides on various EQ features. You don't have to go in-depth with cheat guides, just read the basics on game play, classes, read over the spells abilities, and how basic game play features work. Then, go out and explore... if you need more than that, there are plenty of guides on various things and if you get stumped, look up the details if you need on how they work, but try to explore and enjoy the "mystery" of the game world.

Release EQ is kind of crappy due to all the excessive "monetary" and QoL crap, not to mention you are getting hit with a ton of expansions of content which will confuse the hell out of you. Also, even though they made the game easier over the years, it is still EQ and heavy group/raid focused, so you will struggle trying to solo until you learn all the tricks how to do it, which... is a lot to learn for a new player. That said, it is still "fun", but it will be frustrating, which... is a part of EQ gaming... you won't like the penalties, the negatives of failure, you aren't supposed to, you should dread it, fear it, etc... that is the point. Though release EQ has so much QoL, I doubt many "negatives" exist anymore.

P99 will be more of a traditional experience and will have more frustration and negatives, as well as the need to group to succeed. If you can handle it, it is the best experience that is close to original EQ, but it is mired with many of its own problems. So take that as you will.

For more of an "original" EQ style, Monsters and Memories will be the place you want to be, and the good news is that there will be plenty of people to play with to have that "original EQ" experience when it releases.

If you are more "modern" focused, then wait for EQ legends. While not EQ... it has a lot of flavors of it and being able to play 3 classes with the system of play they have and being able to solo as well as having a lot of the features of the modern EQ clients background functionality to make it updated to newer configs and machines, it may be the best bet. It doesn't have any of the traditional "negatives" that original EQ had, but it may give you enough experience in play where at some point you might want to try a more traditional EQ experience with M&M.

The only thing I can say though, is with EQ, losing is part of the play. Frustration is not something to fear, but be a guide in how to avoid the circumstances of it reoccurring as well as getting used to the fact that "**** happens".

[Norfleet]

Keep in mind, EQ was from an era where people still read the instruction manuals to play a game to figure out things that maybe weren't intuitive in normal play, so that is a limit to it. EQ did originally ship with an offline tutorial you could run which showed "basic" functions of play, but for the most part it was "read the manual" and figure out the rest. This also is a basic difference in games from that era. Many games required the player to "explore" the game and figure things out. So questing in early EQ was much like the old adventure games where you had to query with text input to see if it triggered something while paying attention to the responses. EQ actually had quite a few quests, but you had to explore and investigate to find them.

As an old sea dog, I've never read an instruction manual for a game in my life. A man of the sea needs no manual!

EQs base purpose of play is akin to older RPGs for its progression, which is killing mobs. This is the point (quests are for items, story, etc... not leveling even though the do offer some exp). You try to find mobs you can kill and use them as a means to level. Most items in EQ that drop have some use, be it crafting, quests, or as equipment. You would be surprised at how most things have a purpose or use, even though at first it looks like a bunch of junk. Release EQ didn't provide "hints" on this. You had to think logically about what dropped, pair it with some crafting use and then experiment with combines to make things. Modern EQ streamlined all this providing a crafting interface with all the preloaded recipes.

Yes, it's much like old MUDs where you levelled by simply grinding mobs. You are essentially dropped into the world and left to do your own thing, unlike the more modern MMO where you're led by the nose, often forcibly, through prefabricated content.

[Olivine]

grinding mobs is ******* gay and theres a reason vanilla worlo wiped its *** with everquest's "manual" and even sniped some of its top players and turned them into developers!

[Xenich]

He says as he grinds 1000's of fetch quests and 5 min dungeon token runs, but hey... at least he can play dress up to impress people in the city hubs!

[rusty_shackleford]

It's impossible to deny that THJ was a massive success for a good reason.