Everquest, what do you consider "bad" design concerning it?

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

So Illiterate, a closet homosexual, and suffering from micro **** worry.

It is ok, you have a lot in common with most game developers these days, but better keep a look out on the "transition" urges, I am sure it is coming.

uh no, I'm not gay. I eat pussy for breakfast lunch and dinner, AND snack time.

you, on the other hand, are a little bottom *****

[GhostCow]

Everything about raiding was a mistake. All of the trade skills sucked are weren't very useful except for jewelcrafting. They improved it later with some racial armors and food that gave stats bonuses, but it was mostly just stuff for fun. Tinkering was totally useless. The aqualung was kind of cool, but you could just get the same effect with a spell much easier and cheaper. Some of the races were a bit OP and the experience penalties for certain classes were stupid as hell. Iksar especially were not good enough to deserve the XP penalty. They were pretty good as necros, but other races were better for every other class they could be. They also had a higher delay on their fists as monks than a human which I don't think was at all justified since they had an XP penalty. Also everything they did after Velious was bad. Luclin made the game worse for me and then PoP made me quit.

Humans got a bonus to exp, but no bonus to anything else.

Humans didn't have an xp bonus. They were supposed to, but somehow halflings ended up getting it instead. Humans just sucked. No infravision, stats mediocre, and nothing to make up for it.

[Killagain665]

Everquest is why I hate Bards and think they should be removed from any serious or respectable RPG, videogame or otherwise.

[GhostCow]

EQ bards were the best bards in any game ever. I loved playing one and grouping with them

[Norfleet]

I don't think so. Attrition encounters (ie endurance play) is its own system of play.

Really Long Fights really need a better framing device than "I have to whack an orc chief 30000 times before he dies". Something like "wooden things are actually pretty hard to sink by shooting them" works better for long fights. It also helps if the battle actually has an attritional character, rather than two sides whailing away at each other until one finally runs out of hitpoints. If, by the end of the fight, half my guns are out of action and the main mast has been shot off while my opponent is on fire and abandoning ship because the fire is about to reach the magazine, it's a much more interesting conclusion than simply having whacked him for the 30000th time to take off his last hitpoint. Attrition battles are uninteresting when the thing being attrited it a numeric that rubberbands back and forth because one or both sides will rapidly heal to full if the pressure is ever taken off even briefly. Fights against near-peer adversaries are also more interesting than fights against blocks of cheese. Everquest was, in many ways, a product of its era in which computational horsepower was severely lacking and so numerical bloat was used to substitute for interesting combat against interesting opponents.

[anvi]

I switched from Bard to Necro which I really liked. But at some point they added a spell that let you transfer your mana to someone. So for a while, raids as a Necro was just a mana battery for Clerics. Worst thing ever.

[Stack of Turtles]

Edit: this is for people who like EQ, but had problems with various features. If you are ******* mainstream ******, yeah... I get it... you are ******** and don't like the ******* game... move along...

Serious question: Why ask if you're going to ***** if people give answers you think are the wrong reason to dislike it?

[Oyster Sauce]

Edit: this is for people who like EQ, but had problems with various features. If you are ******* mainstream ******, yeah... I get it... you are ******** and don't like the ******* game... move along...

Serious question: Why ask if you're going to ***** if people give answers you think are the wrong reason to dislike it?

Virtue signalling

[Norfleet]

Everquest is why I hate Bards and think they should be removed from any serious or respectable RPG, videogame or otherwise.

But what about Fansy the Famous?

[Xenich]

Everything about raiding was a mistake. All of the trade skills sucked are weren't very useful except for jewelcrafting. They improved it later with some racial armors and food that gave stats bonuses, but it was mostly just stuff for fun. Tinkering was totally useless. The aqualung was kind of cool, but you could just get the same effect with a spell much easier and cheaper. Some of the races were a bit OP and the experience penalties for certain classes were stupid as hell. Iksar especially were not good enough to deserve the XP penalty. They were pretty good as necros, but other races were better for every other class they could be. They also had a higher delay on their fists as monks than a human which I don't think was at all justified since they had an XP penalty. Also everything they did after Velious was bad. Luclin made the game worse for me and then PoP made me quit.

Humans got a bonus to exp, but no bonus to anything else.

Humans didn't have an xp bonus. They were supposed to, but somehow halflings ended up getting it instead. Humans just sucked. No infravision, stats mediocre, and nothing to make up for it.

Trying to remember... you are right, not a bonus... (I think the bonus was supposed to happen when they started removing the penalties from certain races and classes, I know it was something like that).

They did some adjusting at some point to all of that, hell levels, etc... I think human monks had some changes to them to try and keep up with iksar, but iksar were just insane with all of their bonuses. The AC bonus alone was ridiculous. Anyway, that bugged the hell out of me though when they started removing penalties for classes, I struggled with being blind in the dark, I got lost many of times going through Blackburrow on my way to Halas.

Edit: this is for people who like EQ, but had problems with various features. If you are ******* mainstream ******, yeah... I get it... you are ******** and don't like the ******* game... move along...

Serious question: Why ask if you're going to ***** if people give answers you think are the wrong reason to dislike it?

What point is there complaining about a game you hate everything about? It is like asking a vegan which type of meat cut they don't like, I mean... they don't eat meat, they don't like it, so why would anyone care? Do you think I am going to get any legitimate evaluation of the game with someone like that? Go ask an action arcade junkie to detail out the key aspects of a turn based game when they hate all turn based games. Do you think you are going to get an honest assessment, or just "turn based games suck, this game sucks...!"

Also, they didn't come in and explain anything (fonts? Seriously), it was more of a "EQ ******* sucks drood!", it isn't a critical evaluation, it is just whiny *** narcist bitching.

As for the others, just discussion... nothing more. If they didn't like the feature, fine... nothing wrong with it, but I would be interested to hear why some people dislike some things and why they think maybe modern MMOs did them better. My responses were more to get that discussion started (ie Oyster's comment of "Quests" to which I went into detail of their issues and what I thought they did well, he he welcome to point out otherwise as well...) if people feel attacked, it isn't that, just diving into what and why.

EQ bards were the best bards in any game ever. I loved playing one and grouping with them

Yeah, they took a lot of skill to play as well. The one "action" class in the game with being able to "twist" songs. What is funny is when Verant left, Smeds crew took over and they had no clue about the bard code and it took them a while before they could figure it out.

[Kalarion]

Edit: this is for people who like EQ, but had problems with various features. If you are ******* mainstream ******, yeah... I get it... you are ******** and don't like the ******* game... move along...

Serious question: Why ask if you're going to ***** if people give answers you think are the wrong reason to dislike it?

It was a bad edit to address an obvious problem cropping up in the thread, which was dudesmoke420 showing up to throw **** around like the deranged ***-raped howler monkey he is. Do you really think Xenich would have had the reaction he did if you, for instance, had written out a thoughtful post outlining the design or implementation problems you had with EQ?

Xenich clearly wanted good-faith discussion. He's always reacted badly to ****-flinging trolls.

Virtue signalling

Oh shut the **** up.

[Stack of Turtles]

Edit: this is for people who like EQ, but had problems with various features. If you are ******* mainstream ******, yeah... I get it... you are ******** and don't like the ******* game... move along...

Serious question: Why ask if you're going to ***** if people give answers you think are the wrong reason to dislike it?

It was a bad edit to address an obvious problem cropping up in the thread, which was dudesmoke420 showing up to throw **** around like the deranged ***-raped howler monkey he is. Do you really think Xenich would have had the reaction he did if you, for instance, had written out a thoughtful post outlining the design or implementation problems you had with EQ?

Xenich clearly wanted good-faith discussion. He's always reacted badly to ****-flinging trolls.

Virtue signalling

Oh shut the **** up.

Kalarion, I think you fundamentally have the same problem of being overly sensitive about Everquest.

[Oyster Sauce]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

[Xenich]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

WoW did apply a more naturalistic type feel for that behavior in some ways, but when you say "mixed up", what do you mean? Most of the mobs in various areas had some sense of purpose. I mean, take EC for instance, you had the human areas, then you had orc tents in various outside edges of the zone with the occasional "ruin" which might have skellies or ghouls. Most of the zone while not as dynamic as WoW in that respect still had some form of logic to it, or do you mean "level" of mobs? Even then, there was some purpose to it such as Hill Giants occasionally popping in EC, or... at night the high level werewolf that would run through the zone... or things like Kithcor Forrest which went on a day and night cycle of low level noob zone during the day and mid to high level undead mobs during the night.

I get the third person camera though. Like I said, first person was the focus in play at release which is why there were numerous spells and abilities that functioned around that "limited" play view. It made exploration a bit more dangerous as you couldn't see around corners or pull way out to see where mobs were off in the distance. You could easily be running along and accidentally run into a mob.

I think at some point the "cameras" were put in for different views you could switch during play, but were not very good for "3rd person" play. It took a few expansions before they started fitting it for that more "natural" 3rd person style. I used to only play EQ first person, but then it got to the point where you would be at a disadvantage if you chose to play that way. Pulling, scouting, and other aspects of play were made so much easier when you could swap cameras or zoom out and see entire areas.

[Tweed]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

Probably EQ's Dikumud and older game design origins talking there. Snakes, spiders, orc pawns or whatever in the starting zones, the usual crap to level up newbs on before they run off and fight a slightly bigger version of it. EQ was still more about crunch and number-go-up than coherency at the beginning. You look at the hill giant and think about how someday you'll be able to kill it instead of it killing you. Worked for 1999, doesn't work so great now.

[Xenich]

Serious question: Why ask if you're going to ***** if people give answers you think are the wrong reason to dislike it?

It was a bad edit to address an obvious problem cropping up in the thread, which was dudesmoke420 showing up to throw **** around like the deranged ***-raped howler monkey he is. Do you really think Xenich would have had the reaction he did if you, for instance, had written out a thoughtful post outlining the design or implementation problems you had with EQ?

Xenich clearly wanted good-faith discussion. He's always reacted badly to ****-flinging trolls.

Virtue signalling

Oh shut the **** up.

Kalarion, I think you fundamentally have the same problem of being overly sensitive about Everquest.

I get a bit pissy at times, but if you notice it isn't simply because of EQ, but more so on the trolling of that **** of dumb *** behavior. I can't stand WoW these days, and while it had some nice concepts at release, I really think the game is completely ******** these days, but... I can discuss the game with people without saying "game sucks, you are a ******! blah blah" and I certainly don't enter into the WoW thread going off about how people are ******** to be playing that mainstream gimmick ******** of a game. I don't see the point, nobody wants to hear it, and it won't achieve any discussion of value.

What really pisses me off is when some brain dead moron walks into a thread with their dumbfuckery, mouths off like a ******, then acts like a ******* emo purple hair ***** when their own **** is dished back at them, especially when people begin to circle the wagons and "white knight" them.

As I mentioned previously, I am not responding to peoples discussion about what they dislike because "I have to prove them wrong", I am simply discussing the details of the game, maybe probing to more details as to why they think that way, or the specifics as to why they think it is better with some other implementation. In the end, I know a lot of people don't like a lot of EQs old mechanics, and that is fine... it really is a matter of "taste" in play, so there isn't really a wrong position in it, but there are some people (you will see them in the MMO discussions around the internet) who think those old mechanics aren't simply tastes in play, but inferior failed concepts.

Anyway, like I said... I just like to discuss this stuff, but I don't like the teenager angst posters who act like ******** trolls, they are insufferable.

[Xenich]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

Probably EQ's Dikumud and older game design origins talking there. Snakes, spiders, orc pawns or whatever in the starting zones, the usual crap to level up newbs on before they run off and fight a slightly bigger version of it. EQ was still more about crunch and number-go-up than coherency at the beginning. You look at the hill giant and think about how someday you'll be able to kill it instead of it killing you. Worked for 1999, doesn't work so great now.

You think it is because younger generations want more action influence? I notice that is a consistent theme when I see various concepts discussed. People are constantly wanting more interaction from the player rather than that concept. Maybe it was because when EQ hit, the bulk of combat systems and play with RPGs was "number crunching"? I get why some want more action, but I don't know... there is something about that simplistic style of play of leveraging character statistics in random encounters that is.. I don't know... enjoyable. I guess less people like that these days.

[Oyster Sauce]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

WoW did apply a more naturalistic type feel for that behavior in some ways, but when you say "mixed up", what do you mean?

I vaguely remember skeletons and goblins and fairies and wild animals all hanging out together in a dark forest as if they shared the same respawn points

[Xenich]

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

WoW did apply a more naturalistic type feel for that behavior in some ways, but when you say "mixed up", what do you mean?

I vaguely remember skeletons and goblins and fairies and wild animals all hanging out together in a dark forest as if they shared the same respawn points

Yeah, they mixed a bit at times... usually it was roaming mobs that tended to be that. Where they tried to keep some sort of consistency was at camps or the like, but yeah... EQ didn't have a lot of design with special attention to that, though later expansions they began to normalize some areas to make sense to some type of theme.

[Stack of Turtles]

I get a bit pissy at times, but if you notice it isn't simply because of EQ, but more so on the trolling of that **** of dumb *** behavior. I can't stand WoW these days, and while it had some nice concepts at release, I really think the game is completely ******** these days, but... I can discuss the game with people without saying "game sucks, you are a ******! blah blah" and I certainly don't enter into the WoW thread going off about how people are ******** to be playing that mainstream gimmick ******** of a game. I don't see the point, nobody wants to hear it, and it won't achieve any discussion of value.

The thing is, he insulted the game, and then you called him a ******. You can say that "pretty much everything the game sucks ****" isn't a highly sophisticated critique, but it is a semantically valid answer to the question you asked. Then you got pissy at him for giving an answer you didn't like, because you're weirdly in love with everquest. Meanwhile, like 80% of the posts in the WoW thread ARE somebody "going off about how people are ******** to be playing it", and nobody goes ******* to defend WoW because, basically, Val is the only person who even seems to like it and he's too nice.

[Kalarion]

Kalarion, I think you fundamentally have the same problem of being overly sensitive about Everquest.

You're right, but for the wrong game. For me it's FF XI.

What I'm overly sensitive about here is that most quality posters aren't the total package. Think of someone like AL; really interesting posts, covers topics and looks at things in ways I never thought to before, but highly sensitive to trolling and prone to withdraw quickly at irritations. I value AL far more, even with the work that would be necessary to keep him engaged with the forums, than I ever would someone like FinalSphincter1488, whether he occasionally makes a point worth reading or a joke worth laughing at or not. So with Xenich and others.

---

Because of this I didn't play very much but my other big problem was the soulless world (at least in the starting zone!). All of the enemies were randomly mixed up placed haphazardly. WoW has ecosystems - kobolds live in a mine, kobold-eating spiders infest the deepest part of the mine, bandits have taken over a nearby farm, murlocs have their little huts lining bodies of water, wolves hyperspawn in their den, etc.

I understand this irritation. I think to some extent it's what Tweed said (MUD origins, where you slay rats and other pest-type stuff in the yard for a couple hours before moving on to other nodes) combined with what seems like this idea that most of a zone is just inhabited by random wildlife, without thought for where it is, for "variety" or whatever. Even in later overworld zones there's some thought put into the major interaction areas though. And the dungeons are masterworks. The classic examples are the Guks and Chardok, to me.

The absolute worst example of this kind of design problem is probably the Karanas. Absolutely no rhyme or reason to any of the mob layouts there, and it's combined with several major questlines requiring rare spawns that can pop from **** that's zonewide. Really really REALLY irritating.

[Xenich]

I get a bit pissy at times, but if you notice it isn't simply because of EQ, but more so on the trolling of that **** of dumb *** behavior. I can't stand WoW these days, and while it had some nice concepts at release, I really think the game is completely ******** these days, but... I can discuss the game with people without saying "game sucks, you are a ******! blah blah" and I certainly don't enter into the WoW thread going off about how people are ******** to be playing that mainstream gimmick ******** of a game. I don't see the point, nobody wants to hear it, and it won't achieve any discussion of value.

The thing is, he insulted the game, and then you called him a ******. You can say that "pretty much everything the game sucks ****" isn't a highly sophisticated critique, but it is a semantically valid answer to the question you asked. Then you got pissy at him for giving an answer you didn't like, because you're weirdly in love with everquest. Meanwhile, like 80% of the posts in the WoW thread ARE somebody "going off about how people are ******** to be playing it", and nobody goes ******* to defend WoW because, basically, Val is the only person who even seems to like it and he's too nice.

He responded like a typical Steam forum mainstreamer troll, I treated him like one. Stop babying him. I am sure he can handle his own arguments without having you flock to his defense. If he can't deal with a little backlash after a his stupid comment, he needs to log off and seek comfort from his mother.

As for WoW forums, I wouldn't know... like I said, I don't spend time there and I really don't care about the game to comment a whole lot about it and even if I did, I wouldn't go off like that.

Yes, I like EQ, but it gets hard to have discussions about the mechanics because some people can't discuss it without resorting to "dem gum sucks... dum dum... hate it...".

[Xenich]

One thing I think is interesting is how sometimes game play gets removed under the guise of "QoL". Take the addition of cameras and 3rd person play in EQ. First person required a different approach to play as opposed to 3rd person. you had to be more careful, rely on spells/abilities, etc... as you could easily get turned around and it was important to position yourself in ways to avoid that "sneak up" mob that would get behind you because you didn't see it approach.

People often looked at the 3rd person as an "improvement", a "QoL" in play, but technically it removed that concept of concern in play. This isn't a dig on people who like 3rd person, but you have to admit such features do remove certain aspects of game play. It was the same with them removing the spell book for casters while medding. This used to be a major concern and balance to a caster and why they had certain spells and abilities to aid in it. It was kind of an important limitation mechanic that was removed as "QoL".

I actually liked it as it was creepy and scary as hell to be in a rough situation, nearing death and having to sit down and med not being able to see what is coming. The removal of this feature of play along with the addition of 3rd person camera completely invalidated that game play mechanic. You could scroll way out, see all around you and tell when mobs were getting close, no suspense, no risk, no need to use spells/abilities to mitigate as the camera view provided all the information you could need to avoid getting caught off guard. I know it seems like a small insignificant thing, but I thought it was one of many layers that gave the game a tense feeling in play.

[Stack of Turtles]

Ultimately, I'm not trying to defend the guy, but I'm annoyed that the exchange between you has poisoned the well for a more thoughtful exchange.

[Xenich]

Ultimately, I'm not trying to defend the guy, but I'm annoyed that the exchange between you has poisoned the well for a more thoughtful exchange.

I seriously doubt he was looking for a thoughtful exchange.

[GhostCow]

Behead those who did not play EQ in first person

[WaterMage]

1 - It started stat stickie itemization
2 - It started high level hp bloat

[Oyster Sauce]

Behead those who did not play EQ in first person

It could at least give you little arms

[rusty_shackleford]

1 - It started stat stickie itemization
2 - It started high level hp bloat

Like most issues, these originated with Diablo 2.

[GhostCow]

Behead those who did not play EQ in first person

It could at least give you little arms

You could see your arms when doing melee. I always thought the first person melee animations were cool. Sad that MnM doesn't have that. First person sucks balls in MnM and I doubt they plan to improve it. The camera isn't even at the right height. At least as a goblin