Everquest, what do you consider "bad" design concerning it?

[Xenich]

Edit: this is for people who like EQ, but had problems with various features. If you are ******* mainstream ******, yeah... I get it... you are ******** and don't like the ******* game... move along...

So since I am not 100% clear on what people disliked about EQ, maybe you could list out the things you consider "bad" design for it.

For me...

1. Raid size (way too large... ridiculous... seriously... it was fun for a few times, but became a hassle really quick).
2. Contested content: Not as bad with groups (depended on server pop), but for raids? Completely stupid. This works into #1, but still is a problem. It is bad enough to tell people they have to be on call for a frigging video game, but to require 30-70 people to do the raid AND be on call? Worst design ever.
3. Most design changes post SoL (Smedley screwed up the game with focus on raids and treating people who couldn't raid contested like they were casual ******* that needed tons of QoL). I am not saying there were not good ideas past SoL, but they were mired in modern gimmicks.

I am sure there are more things, but that is the basis of my objection.

So, I hear lots of people that go on about how bad EQ was how it didn't respect their time, how this or that was bad... so... list them... what made EQ a bad game in your eyes?

[rusty_shackleford]

Sitting in one spot killing the same monster over and over as it respawns.

[Oyster Sauce]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

[Xenich]

Third person camera placement is unplayably bad

It was originally designed to be played first person. Camera switching was merely supposed to be alternate views under specific circumstances.

Also, if I remember right (been a while obviously) that was added later. First person was the main perspective, as well as things like casters having a spell book in their face (not being able to see) when medding. There were even spells that were specifically designed for this concept (sentinel, which alarmed when anything got close, as well as various illusion forms, faction (druid), etc.. which allowed a caster to med without concern about certain approaching enemies).

[Xenich]

Sitting in one spot killing the same monster over and over as it respawns.

So I assume your preference is "dungeon spawn" (ie WoW do the dungeon, go out, reset... do again) as opposed to "mob spawn"?

[Oyster Sauce]

Sitting in one spot killing the same monster over and over as it respawns.

So I assume your preference is "dungeon spawn" (ie WoW do the dungeon, go out, reset... do again) as opposed to "mob spawn"?

Quests

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

pretty much everything the game sucks ****

but if you really want me to name something, i'd say the times new roman font text floating above everything is ******* dumb

[Xenich]

Sitting in one spot killing the same monster over and over as it respawns.

So I assume your preference is "dungeon spawn" (ie WoW do the dungeon, go out, reset... do again) as opposed to "mob spawn"?

Quests

EQ had good quests, though... to be fair... they were mired by current tech with text input being what it was... but EQ quests were often (not always) very cool in that you had to seek out, pay attention to th text and consider what it would mean (ie riddle like, sleuth like). The biggest problem with EQ quests were text input (ie phrases/words not being accepted and so not triggered) as well as turn ins being eaten by NPCs for various reasons (wrong NPC, wrong script position, etc..). That said, their quests were far more... involved than modern MMOs where everything is simply following a bouncy ball.

Also, EQ had quests by items... where you had to pay attention to lore, NPC comments, Mob comments, etc... to piece together what an item should be used for and how.

To be honest, I think Text input questing is the pinnacle of game play. It requires the player to read, understand what was given and then speculate on what is needed to trigger things. With AI and text input entry systems, these days I think a text input system would do quite well and provide the optimal means for true investigative game play.

[Xenich]

pretty much everything the game sucks ****

but if you really want me to name something, i'd say the times new roman font text floating above everything is ******* dumb

You are ******** though, so... good for you!

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

pretty much everything the game sucks ****

but if you really want me to name something, i'd say the times new roman font text floating above everything is ******* dumb

You are ******** though, so... good for you!

no, i'm smart. and you're gay with small ****

[rusty_shackleford]

Sitting in one spot killing the same monster over and over as it respawns.

So I assume your preference is "dungeon spawn" (ie WoW do the dungeon, go out, reset... do again) as opposed to "mob spawn"?

Dungeon crawling is more fun than grinding, yes. We figured this out pretty early into RPG design.

[Xenich]

Sitting in one spot killing the same monster over and over as it respawns.

So I assume your preference is "dungeon spawn" (ie WoW do the dungeon, go out, reset... do again) as opposed to "mob spawn"?

Dungeon crawling is more fun than grinding, yes. We figured this out pretty early into RPG design.

We? There are still a subset of people who like the "camping" aspect of play.

While I do like dungeon crawling, what it lacks is the concept of breaking a camp and holding it due to spawn times. If you look to WoW, you basically move in and assess each "area" you are to attack. Once it is completed, you med up and move to the next area. There was no urgency in WoW, you could take your time, prepare and approach every obstacle at your best.

Contrast that with a "timed" based respawn dungeon where you couldn't simply wait around for everyone to be full, you had to seek safe spaces, or deal with the pops as they came. It was one thing to "break" a room in EQ, but another to "hold" it and this was due to player management of resources. You didn't have a neat little "reset" button to which you could hit when you were ready, you had to deal with the timing as it came, regardless if things went bad on the last fight you had.

[Ranselknulf]

People under 40 are allowed to play it.

Major flaw.

[Xenich]

pretty much everything the game sucks ****

but if you really want me to name something, i'd say the times new roman font text floating above everything is ******* dumb

You are ******** though, so... good for you!

no, i'm smart. and you're gay with small ****

You are smart... so smart that the first thing you did in the discussion was to go to **** size. Is this on your mind a lot? Do the girls constantly bring this up to you? Is is something you feel a bit self conscious about so you need to... well... over compensate? I mean, if you call every other guy gay with a small ****, maybe it will detract from the homosexual thoughts you have and help alleviate all the shameful comments the girls give you about your manhood. Maybe... there is some "guy" out there that will appreciate you for what you are? Maybe... those feelings you have while you are looking through those men magazines are more than simply passing thoughts? Maybe... you are projecting that you are a tiny **** ****** who needs people to think they aren't as dumb as a stump. Then again, maybe being a dumb ****** like you will work to your favor?

[rusty_shackleford]

So I assume your preference is "dungeon spawn" (ie WoW do the dungeon, go out, reset... do again) as opposed to "mob spawn"?

Dungeon crawling is more fun than grinding, yes. We figured this out pretty early into RPG design.

We? There are still a subset of people who like the "camping" aspect of play.

While I do like dungeon crawling, what it lacks is the concept of breaking a camp and holding it due to spawn times. If you look to WoW, you basically move in and assess each "area" you are to attack. Once it is completed, you med up and move to the next area. There was no urgency in WoW, you could take your time, prepare and approach every obstacle at your best.

Contrast that with a "timed" based respawn dungeon where you couldn't simply wait around for everyone to be full, you had to seek safe spaces, or deal with the pops as they came. It was one thing to "break" are room in EQ, but another to "hold" it and this was due to player management of resources. You didn't have a neat little "reset" button to which you could hit when you were ready, you had to deal with the timing as it came, regardless if things went bad on the last fight you had.

Well-designed encounters will always be more difficult than respawning enemies, which just leaves attrition. Which… yea, I guess? MMOs purposely deleted attrition because casuals don't like it.
DDO's dungeons remain the best dungeons of any MMO I've played. Some WoW ones may have been better in certain ways.

[Kalarion]

Dungeon crawling is more fun than grinding, yes. We figured this out pretty early into RPG design.

We? There are still a subset of people who like the "camping" aspect of play.

While I do like dungeon crawling, what it lacks is the concept of breaking a camp and holding it due to spawn times. If you look to WoW, you basically move in and assess each "area" you are to attack. Once it is completed, you med up and move to the next area. There was no urgency in WoW, you could take your time, prepare and approach every obstacle at your best.

Contrast that with a "timed" based respawn dungeon where you couldn't simply wait around for everyone to be full, you had to seek safe spaces, or deal with the pops as they came. It was one thing to "break" are room in EQ, but another to "hold" it and this was due to player management of resources. You didn't have a neat little "reset" button to which you could hit when you were ready, you had to deal with the timing as it came, regardless if things went bad on the last fight you had.

Well-designed encounters will always be more difficult than respawning enemies, which just leaves attrition. Which… yea, I guess? MMOs purposely deleted attrition because casuals don't like it.
DDO's dungeons remain the best dungeons of any MMO I've played. Some WoW ones may have been better in certain ways.

I'm torn. I love sitting with my bros in a broken camp, maybe having to deal with occasional trains or **** like that, chatting and in a zen flow of xp for a level or three. Think Blackburrow or some of the high-level vanilla or Kunark dungeons. My only gripe with camp-based play is that most camps don't reward anything but xp. I'd like more material reward in any camp, even if it's just vendor junk for a bit of money.

On the other hand, LDoN was my second-favorite expansion for a reason. Grinding dungeons for time and big rewards with a tight-knit group is ******* outlandishly fun.

Could we maybe have both?

[Xenich]

Dungeon crawling is more fun than grinding, yes. We figured this out pretty early into RPG design.

We? There are still a subset of people who like the "camping" aspect of play.

While I do like dungeon crawling, what it lacks is the concept of breaking a camp and holding it due to spawn times. If you look to WoW, you basically move in and assess each "area" you are to attack. Once it is completed, you med up and move to the next area. There was no urgency in WoW, you could take your time, prepare and approach every obstacle at your best.

Contrast that with a "timed" based respawn dungeon where you couldn't simply wait around for everyone to be full, you had to seek safe spaces, or deal with the pops as they came. It was one thing to "break" are room in EQ, but another to "hold" it and this was due to player management of resources. You didn't have a neat little "reset" button to which you could hit when you were ready, you had to deal with the timing as it came, regardless if things went bad on the last fight you had.

Well-designed encounters will always be more difficult than respawning enemies, which just leaves attrition. Which… yea, I guess? MMOs purposely deleted attrition because casuals don't like it.
DDO's dungeons remain the best dungeons of any MMO I've played. Some WoW ones may have been better in certain ways.

I don't think so. Attrition encounters (ie endurance play) is its own system of play. A confined system allows the player to specify their need in resources. They challenge the encounter and apply it, but with a reoccurring system, it becomes more dynamic. There is a shift between each fight that is not easily manageable. Players need to adapt, shift spells, shift behavior, and because the encounters are not "static", this constantly creates a shift in play. Casuals like "I do this, I win", they don't like having to think, to consider and to manage, they want their prize, and it is why most modern MMOs are "fail upward" where there is no consequence in loss, simply staying static. While some may like that, I find it to be boring and easy to overcome. Without "risk", there is no reward... with out "failure", there is no success...

Modern gaming is essentially a bunch of babies who can't stand to lose (ie consequence). That is, modern gaming is for women who HATE consequence.

[Xenich]

We? There are still a subset of people who like the "camping" aspect of play.

While I do like dungeon crawling, what it lacks is the concept of breaking a camp and holding it due to spawn times. If you look to WoW, you basically move in and assess each "area" you are to attack. Once it is completed, you med up and move to the next area. There was no urgency in WoW, you could take your time, prepare and approach every obstacle at your best.

Contrast that with a "timed" based respawn dungeon where you couldn't simply wait around for everyone to be full, you had to seek safe spaces, or deal with the pops as they came. It was one thing to "break" are room in EQ, but another to "hold" it and this was due to player management of resources. You didn't have a neat little "reset" button to which you could hit when you were ready, you had to deal with the timing as it came, regardless if things went bad on the last fight you had.

Well-designed encounters will always be more difficult than respawning enemies, which just leaves attrition. Which… yea, I guess? MMOs purposely deleted attrition because casuals don't like it.
DDO's dungeons remain the best dungeons of any MMO I've played. Some WoW ones may have been better in certain ways.

I'm torn. I love sitting with my bros in a broken camp, maybe having to deal with occasional trains or **** like that, chatting and in a zen flow of xp for a level or three. Think Blackburrow or some of the high-level vanilla or Kunark dungeons. My only gripe with camp-based play is that most camps don't reward anything but xp. I'd like more material reward in any camp, even if it's just vendor junk for a bit of money.

On the other hand, LDoN was my second-favorite expansion for a reason. Grinding dungeons for time and big rewards with a tight-knit group is ******* outlandishly fun.

Could we maybe have both?

Having the named (or even the mobs) grow in power each cycle (as well as providing better rewards) would be a cool concept.

[rusty_shackleford]

We? There are still a subset of people who like the "camping" aspect of play.

While I do like dungeon crawling, what it lacks is the concept of breaking a camp and holding it due to spawn times. If you look to WoW, you basically move in and assess each "area" you are to attack. Once it is completed, you med up and move to the next area. There was no urgency in WoW, you could take your time, prepare and approach every obstacle at your best.

Contrast that with a "timed" based respawn dungeon where you couldn't simply wait around for everyone to be full, you had to seek safe spaces, or deal with the pops as they came. It was one thing to "break" are room in EQ, but another to "hold" it and this was due to player management of resources. You didn't have a neat little "reset" button to which you could hit when you were ready, you had to deal with the timing as it came, regardless if things went bad on the last fight you had.

Well-designed encounters will always be more difficult than respawning enemies, which just leaves attrition. Which… yea, I guess? MMOs purposely deleted attrition because casuals don't like it.
DDO's dungeons remain the best dungeons of any MMO I've played. Some WoW ones may have been better in certain ways.

I don't think so. Attrition encounters (ie endurance play) is its own system of play. A confined system allows the player to specify their need in resources. The challenge the encounter and apply it, but with a reoccurring system, it become more dynamic. There is a shift between each fight that is not easily manageable. Players need to adapt, shift spells, shift behavior, and because the encounters are not "static", this constantly creates a shift in play. Casuals like "I do this, I win", the don't like having to think, to consider and to manage, they want their prize, and it is why most modern MMOs are "fail upward" where there is no consequence in loss, simply staying static. While some may like that, I find it to be boring and easy to overcome. Without "risk", there is no reward... with out "failure", there is no success...

Modern gaming is essentially a bunch of babies who can't stand to lose (ie consequence). That is, modern gaming is for women who HATE consequence.

I cannot think of a way to make respawning enemies as difficult as hand-tuned encounters unless the spawn time was randomized, they spawned in waves, and the waves were largely pre-designed to be difficult.
But it's not like WoW doesn't have attrition encounters, that's what the majority of bosses are. You're just not getting attrition between encounters, which also isn't true if you're going fast or there's a mechanic to make you not be able to stop — I recall at least a few of those off the top of my head from when I played a healer.

[Xenich]

Well-designed encounters will always be more difficult than respawning enemies, which just leaves attrition. Which… yea, I guess? MMOs purposely deleted attrition because casuals don't like it.
DDO's dungeons remain the best dungeons of any MMO I've played. Some WoW ones may have been better in certain ways.

I don't think so. Attrition encounters (ie endurance play) is its own system of play. A confined system allows the player to specify their need in resources. The challenge the encounter and apply it, but with a reoccurring system, it become more dynamic. There is a shift between each fight that is not easily manageable. Players need to adapt, shift spells, shift behavior, and because the encounters are not "static", this constantly creates a shift in play. Casuals like "I do this, I win", the don't like having to think, to consider and to manage, they want their prize, and it is why most modern MMOs are "fail upward" where there is no consequence in loss, simply staying static. While some may like that, I find it to be boring and easy to overcome. Without "risk", there is no reward... with out "failure", there is no success...

Modern gaming is essentially a bunch of babies who can't stand to lose (ie consequence). That is, modern gaming is for women who HATE consequence.

I cannot think of a way to make respawning enemies as difficult as hand-tuned encounters unless the spawn time was randomized, they spawned in waves, and the waves were largely pre-designed to be difficult.
But it's not like WoW doesn't have attrition encounters, that's what the majority of bosses are. You're just not getting attrition between encounters, which also isn't true if you're going fast or there's a mechanic to make you not be able to stop — I recall at least a few of those off the top of my head from when I played a healer.

Really? You don't see how timer based respawns can't increase difficulty on groups? That their resources wane over time which is often due to inefficient player responses and selections? I mean, in EQ my groups were always pushing the limits and getting ourselves into trouble. We were doing content often above our level, and under geared and this concept was consistent in our play. I guess for players who always "over leveled" content, always went in with the best classed and geared players, taking it safe... this might seem like a situation, but this was never my experience in play. It was constant chaos and a constant push in play.

I do remember having some healers in a party who used to claim they were bored though... well... as a monk puller, I quit them of that really quick. Point is... if you take on easy, you get easy my groups were never easy (I have many players who refused to play with me and my group because of it). If you aren't challenged, you aren't pushing enough (ie level, gear, etc...).

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't think so. Attrition encounters (ie endurance play) is its own system of play. A confined system allows the player to specify their need in resources. The challenge the encounter and apply it, but with a reoccurring system, it become more dynamic. There is a shift between each fight that is not easily manageable. Players need to adapt, shift spells, shift behavior, and because the encounters are not "static", this constantly creates a shift in play. Casuals like "I do this, I win", the don't like having to think, to consider and to manage, they want their prize, and it is why most modern MMOs are "fail upward" where there is no consequence in loss, simply staying static. While some may like that, I find it to be boring and easy to overcome. Without "risk", there is no reward... with out "failure", there is no success...

Modern gaming is essentially a bunch of babies who can't stand to lose (ie consequence). That is, modern gaming is for women who HATE consequence.

I cannot think of a way to make respawning enemies as difficult as hand-tuned encounters unless the spawn time was randomized, they spawned in waves, and the waves were largely pre-designed to be difficult.
But it's not like WoW doesn't have attrition encounters, that's what the majority of bosses are. You're just not getting attrition between encounters, which also isn't true if you're going fast or there's a mechanic to make you not be able to stop — I recall at least a few of those off the top of my head from when I played a healer.

Really? You don't see how timer based respawns can't increase difficulty on groups? That their resources wane over time which is often due to inefficient player responses and selections? I mean, in EQ my groups were always pushing the limits and getting ourselves into trouble. We were doing content often above our level, and under geared and this concept was consistent in our play. I guess for players who always "over leveled" content, always went in with the best classed and geared players, taking it safe... this might seem like a situation, but this was never my experience in play. It was constant chaos and a constant push in play.

I do remember having some healers in a party who used to claim they were bored though... well... as a monk puller, I quit them of that really quick. Point is... if you take on easy, you get easy my groups were never easy (I have many players who refused to play with me and my group because of it). If you aren't challenged, you aren't pushing enough (ie level, gear, etc...).

If you killed the group once then it's a gear check regarding how fast you can kill/how little damage you take/healer mana. Which is fine.

[xXD4rk_s3pher0th22Xx]

You are smart... so smart that the first thing you did in the discussion was to go to **** size. Is this on your mind a lot? Do the girls constantly bring this up to you? Is is something you feel a bit self conscious about so you need to... well... over compensate? I mean, if you call every other guy gay with a small ****, maybe it will detract from the homosexual thoughts you have and help alleviate all the shameful comments the girls give you about your manhood. Maybe... there is some "guy" out there that will appreciate you for what you are? Maybe... those feelings you have while you are looking through those men magazines are more than simply passing thoughts? Maybe... you are projecting that you are a tiny **** ****** who needs people to think they aren't as dumb as a stump. Then again, maybe being a dumb ****** like you will work to your favor?

sry can't read huge text blocks i have ligma

[Xenich]

You are smart... so smart that the first thing you did in the discussion was to go to **** size. Is this on your mind a lot? Do the girls constantly bring this up to you? Is is something you feel a bit self conscious about so you need to... well... over compensate? I mean, if you call every other guy gay with a small ****, maybe it will detract from the homosexual thoughts you have and help alleviate all the shameful comments the girls give you about your manhood. Maybe... there is some "guy" out there that will appreciate you for what you are? Maybe... those feelings you have while you are looking through those men magazines are more than simply passing thoughts? Maybe... you are projecting that you are a tiny **** ****** who needs people to think they aren't as dumb as a stump. Then again, maybe being a dumb ****** like you will work to your favor?

sry can't read huge text blocks i have ligma

So Illiterate, a closet homosexual, and suffering from micro **** worry.

It is ok, you have a lot in common with most game developers these days, but better keep a look out on the "transition" urges, I am sure it is coming.

[Xenich]

I cannot think of a way to make respawning enemies as difficult as hand-tuned encounters unless the spawn time was randomized, they spawned in waves, and the waves were largely pre-designed to be difficult.
But it's not like WoW doesn't have attrition encounters, that's what the majority of bosses are. You're just not getting attrition between encounters, which also isn't true if you're going fast or there's a mechanic to make you not be able to stop — I recall at least a few of those off the top of my head from when I played a healer.

Really? You don't see how timer based respawns can't increase difficulty on groups? That their resources wane over time which is often due to inefficient player responses and selections? I mean, in EQ my groups were always pushing the limits and getting ourselves into trouble. We were doing content often above our level, and under geared and this concept was consistent in our play. I guess for players who always "over leveled" content, always went in with the best classed and geared players, taking it safe... this might seem like a situation, but this was never my experience in play. It was constant chaos and a constant push in play.

I do remember having some healers in a party who used to claim they were bored though... well... as a monk puller, I quit them of that really quick. Point is... if you take on easy, you get easy my groups were never easy (I have many players who refused to play with me and my group because of it). If you aren't challenged, you aren't pushing enough (ie level, gear, etc...).

If you killed the group once then it's a gear check regarding how fast you can kill/how little damage you take/healer mana. Which is fine.

Which is a variable. A group can move in, kill the room, then port out... but may not be able to hold the room (seen this a lot). Gear check in some ways, player skill and use of abilities in others. I knew guys with relatively the same gear, but were not equal at all. One was careful in use, reserved in choice and selection and always had enough mana, while the other was constantly out of mana. So no, "gear" alone isn't enough to establish "value" of a player (unless the gear completely overpowers the content, which again is the "over leveled, over geared" aspect).

Point is, I have picked lower geared "skilled" players over higher geared ones because... in the long run, an well geared idiot is still... an idiot.

[GhostCow]

Everything about raiding was a mistake. All of the trade skills sucked are weren't very useful except for jewelcrafting. They improved it later with some racial armors and food that gave stats bonuses, but it was mostly just stuff for fun. Tinkering was totally useless. The aqualung was kind of cool, but you could just get the same effect with a spell much easier and cheaper. Some of the races were a bit OP and the experience penalties for certain classes were stupid as hell. Iksar especially were not good enough to deserve the XP penalty. They were pretty good as necros, but other races were better for every other class they could be. They also had a higher delay on their fists as monks than a human which I don't think was at all justified since they had an XP penalty. Also everything they did after Velious was bad. Luclin made the game worse for me and then PoP made me quit.

[Xenich]

Everything about raiding was a mistake. All of the trade skills sucked are weren't very useful except for jewelcrafting. They improved it later with some racial armors and food that gave stats bonuses, but it was mostly just stuff for fun. Tinkering was totally useless. The aqualung was kind of cool, but you could just get the same effect with a spell much easier and cheaper. Some of the races were a bit OP and the experience penalties for certain classes were stupid as hell. Iksar especially were not good enough to deserve the XP penalty. They were pretty good as necros, but other races were better for every other class they could be. They also had a higher delay on their fists as monks than a human which I don't think was at all justified since they had an XP penalty. Also everything they did after Velious was bad. Luclin made the game worse for me and then PoP made me quit.

Brad said originally they had planned to focus on the "group play", but moved into raiding when people started getting excited about that play with the dragons. If you notice, most of Verants expansions paid special attention to giving "group" content value while adding the "raid" content. I think up to SoL, it was balanced pretty well as there was a lot of content for people who didn't raid to evolve through. PoP through that one out the door with all the excessive zone keying and focus (**** Smed, guy ruined EQ).

Race/Class penalties good or not served a balance. Humans got a bonus to exp, but no bonus to anything else. Other races got special bonuses be it vision, regen rates, increased AC, etc... and they paid for the permeant abilities by having to gain an extra bit of exp, something that was "meaningless" at cap, but somehow was the biggest offense to people as they leveled and of course this was changed over time while sticking the ******* screws to the human. Yes, I watched how they removed all the ******* penalties for these classes making them gain the same exp as humans while humans got the shaft! It was pretty ****** up if you were a human at that time.

As for monks? Humans had a faster fists (slightly changed, but didn't make up the difference), but Iksar's had higher AC (HUGE at the time) and a regen rate that was ******* insane... Not only that, but Monks prior to Kunark were a "class skilled" class, that is... how good they were was based on their skills being developed. Once Iksar's hit, every ******* moron and their mother was twinking them out because monks now used "weapons" and there was a slew of gear introduced to the game where players could twink out a monk with tunics, fists/staffs, etc... and everyone was playing ******* iksars as a twink (lots of necros who farmed fungi tunics, 100 fist staffs, etc...). I remember a ton of them coming into groups with skills extremely low, so they couldn't FD (or have any concept of how to ******* pull), ID, or do most of the effects of a monk because they were PLd as a twink by some other character.

I remember pulling Tormax one night. All the monks (******* Iksars) said it could not be done, that we needed a bard. I told the raid to sit at the zone out to wakening lands, that I would pull him to them. They went on about how it could not be done (I did it often for people doing turn ins). The reason is, because they were used to the increased AC, taking the hits, rather than having to work how to pull without getting hit. Anyway... sorry about the self indulgence, but the monk thing pisses me of.. and don't get me started on the ******* nerf!!!

Yeah... lol rant over.

[anvi]

I loved it but there are things that I would have changed.

Mostly the brutal aspects and how long it took to do things. The grind was so insane early on. It got faster with each expansion so even people who played it years later wouldn't appreciate how long it took to level up before even Kunark. I remember grinding in a group for about 4 hours in Lower Guk and making one twelfth of a level. So it would take 48 hours just to get me from level 35 ish to 36. I never cared about the slow pace from about 1-30 ish. But 30+ it started feeling like such a crazy slog. 40-50 was even worse but I figured out some tricks by then.

I also didn't like how the loot could be too brutal with RNG. I didn't care most of the time, I just got whatever I got and that's fine. But there were times I needed something specific and maybe the watched kettle never boils thing took over, but my god it was brutal. I camped the FBSS from Frenzy with a group. I'd play maybe 5 hours and only 1 would drop if we were lucky. It could have taken more like 20 hours to get one. But then it would be rolled on by the whole group. Not just characters that could use it but the entire group because people wanted it to sell or to give to twinks. So you could group there for 5-20 hours and then had to roll against 5 other people. If someone else won it, then you had to spend another 5-20 hours just to get a chance to roll again.

The most brutal one for me was when I camped the Jboots. At first I was excited to setup camp at that Ancient Cyclops and I could do it solo so I didn't need to roll, and I didn't need to work with other people or anything. I could just sit there and watch TV or something and every 20-30 minutes I would kill the thing and fingers crossed I got the ring. Only... I ended up spending about 4 hours a night 5 nights until it finally dropped. 20+ hours to get the **** thing. I am sure some people came along after I left and killed it and got it first time... But there was no way around it. The whole thing was RNG. So technically it could have taken 200 hours or more if you just kept getting unlucky. I hated that. Those 20 hours bugged me. It was basically a whole week or me playing to get that one item. It made me question everything. I decided the only good way for games to do something like that was to have it drop a component every 1-2 hours instead. Garanteed. And then you needed say 4 components to combine to make the item. So they could still have it take several hours, but it wouldn't go on forever.

Travel was also far too harsh. Especially in the early days before there were many Wizards/Druids who could port people for donations. As a newbie Bard in Kelethin they put a spell in Qeynos... It really wasn't worth the journey but I didn't know that at the time and was determined to get the spell. That journey ended up taking me days. About 12+ hours just to get there. Then I had to get back. The worst was forgetting to bind and then dying. I remember getting too excited and going to Sebilis to meet a buddy. We died in Seb, but I respawned back in Kelethin or somewhere. So it was hours of running and a boat ride just to get back to my corpse, and then another few hours to recover the lost exp. The feeling that you played 5 hours and came out worse off than you did the day before was just so brutal. Yet I would still defend some of this. The travel is what made it feel like a real world, not just a mutiplayer lobby that would connect you to stuff. I wanted the world to stay whole, I just didn't want it to be so brutal and slow. And they never found a good middle ground with any of this. It went from being brutal and harsh to being far too easy. Like when PoK came out and you could just teleport to almost anywhere in the world instantly. I hated that.

The biggest issues for me though were raiding. I hated it. it was so slow and boring. What bothered me the most is that the best gear in the game was from raiding, so all the simple minded **** players became obsessed with raiding. And each expansion added more and more raid content to the point that the game stopped even being about going on adventures as a group. And yet if you just rejected raiding you would be completely obsolete. The group game which used to be the focus became mostly dead. I knew this was absolute batshit when it happened but I couldn't convince anyone. Yet as soon as EQ Emulator showed up, the first server did a lot to redo all of this. They reworked some raid content to be done as a group and I loved it. They also added improved travel and stuff to fix most of my problems with the game.

For me the biggest problem of all was the kind of planned obsolecence from expansion packs. To me it was basically like you are supposed to play for a year to get +10 to everything. Then an expansion comes out which you are supposed to play for another year because all the gear gives +20 to everything! Then guess what? Yep another expansion, which gives +30 to everything. So you better keep buying these expansions when they drop or you are left behind. I hate that so much. I would completely redesign how all of that was done if I was in charge. It also bothered me how physically the expansions were separate from the rest of the game, they were put on new continents. And the old world got no new things. So each expansion made the classic game more and more obsolete and tumbleweedy. It was just such bad design. Kunark could have been blended into the existing world. Some new zones but old zones reworked and expanded. Then Velious didn't need to be a frozen continent. There were already cold regions like Everfrost, Halas, Permafrost, etc. Velious should have been attached to that and again blended into existing content. Some new zones but old zones revamped. I didn't like what it did to the game but I really hated it when they started feeding people drips they were desperate for with each expansion too. Things like an extra bank slot... Having trouble storing all your stuff? Tough ****! Oh wait, now we have a new expansion with extra bank slots so now we have decided to give you exactly what you wanted for years. You just have to pay for it.

[Olivine]

never played EQ (nor will i ever) and i cant read so your edit doesnt affect me!
that being said

1. Raid size (way too large... ridiculous... seriously... it was fun for a few times, but became a hassle really quick).

im fine with big raids, vanilla wows 40 was good because it did not require your entire ******* group to be on the ball and laser focused all the time. raids are a social event for the guild so its fun when u and a few buddies can shoot the **** while a ****** or two is timing his casts with his movement so he can see his parse number go up and the rest of the raid is playing normally

putting a/an before ever mob name has always seemed weird to me. why not just call it "Gnoll" instead of a "Gnoll" ? im not reading a ******* book miss me with that rpg **** it makes me want to roll an Uninstall Wizard

[Xenich]

never played EQ (nor will i ever) and i cant read so your edit doesnt affect me!
that being said

1. Raid size (way too large... ridiculous... seriously... it was fun for a few times, but became a hassle really quick).

im fine with big raids, vanilla wows 40 was good because it did not require your entire ******* group to be on the ball and laser focused all the time. raids are a social event for the guild so its fun when u and a few buddies can shoot the **** while a ****** or two is timing his casts with his movement so he can see his parse number go up and the rest of the raid is playing normally

putting a/an before ever mob name has always seemed weird to me. why not just call it "Gnoll" instead of a "Gnoll" ? im not reading a ******* book miss me with that rpg **** it makes me want to roll an Uninstall Wizard

The issue with EQ, and more of my problem with large raids was the fact that it was contested. With WoW, you could at least "schedule" the raid (instances), tell everyone that you wanted to meet up and do this task on a certain day to which everyone could agree upon. With EQ? Nope... you had a 7 days +/- random time spawn cycle where when it popped, you had to have 32 (highly skilled) or 72 (blob of half competent masses) pop on within short time to take down a target that could take anywhere from 30 mins to 4 hours or more to take down. If you didn't pop on and do the mob, some other guild would do it, which for the US servers, the problem was Euro players playing on US servers and syncing the kill times off hours (which made it even worse to try and compete).

Point was, raiding in EQ was either "picking up random scraps at random times", or going on welfare and playing 24/7. It was ********, and it drilled in the concept of "I have a ******* life" (ie I worked a real job and couldn't take time off to raid a ******* video game). Kind of why I also get pissy about mainstream ******* that go on about how "They have a life", but somehow can't ******* schedule a weekly event or complains about how having to deal with "consequence" in a game is somehow an affront to the "real world".

Funny how we went from "You have to spend all your life to raid a game and be on call 24/7" to "What I have to run back to my corpse!!! I have a ******* life and work and ****!"

Man, I really hate modern gaming.

[anvi]

About the camping in one spot thing.

The game didn't want people to do that or expect it. They expected people to do dungeon crawls. I think it was the brutality of the game that made players figure out that you could just sit in one room and not risk going from named to named. People set up camps in rooms to focus on 1 named. Then someone would run around and pull mobs to them. I ended up really liking it because most of the time people spent travelling. So getting a group in one spot was so chill and a relief. Especially if someone else was doing all the pulling. I could sit and eat snacks and every few minutes he would say Inc! and would run to us with a few creatures to blast. I think the old game just made it too harsh to do dungeon crawls. Moving through a dungeon was an anxious experience, taking you further and further from the entrance. So if you died you now had much further and much more danger to recover your corpses. Later on they added corpse summoning spells but originally that didn't exist so I think that's what created all of this. And in places like Lower Guk you couldn't just invis your way back to the corpse. You needed 2 types of invis and they didn't stack. Also many classes had no way of gating, so even if you bum rushed to your corpse you would just die again.. You had to get the corpse, loot it, then figure out a way back out. It was so brutal early on...

When WoW came along I got to experience the supposed antidote to a lot of EQ stuff. So in that game dungeons were always about doing the full crawl. My conclusion was that it was just more work than sitting in one spot and having someone pull. I went back to EQ on another server and I think I was multiboxing so I could be my own group. But I was still excited to find a spot in a dungeon to hold down. I didn't want any nameds. I just wanted a room or corridor somwhere that was easy to hold. It ended up being more tense than I expected though because I had to split the room which was hard. And then I had to keep track of respawn times. Every 20 minutes something would respawn and if I slacked off I would get multiple respawns at once and either have to split it all up again, or die from being unprepared. So I ended up setting up a timer for 20 minutes to get me ready for the first respawn. And then the whole room would start respawning within minutes of that. Still, I like the one spot thing. It is more chill than moving through a dungeon. Ideally a game should offer both.

Also the one spot thing was far better outdoors. I remember getting a group at the Aviak Village in the Karanas and we just hung around near the ramp to the village and 1 (fast tanky) person would run off and grab the Aviaks and bring them to us. I loved that. Sitting in one spot in big open plains was a lot nicer and less claustrophobic than sitting in one spot in a slimy cramped dungeon.