Whatever happened to simulationism?

[Acrux]

As an extended example of the inability for game developers to make games, RPGs have steadily lost one of the major foundational aspects that used to define the genre.

The prime example here is the Realms of Arkania series - purchasing and management of traveling supplies was a huge part of the game. Mountain passes would be blocked off in cold weather, so you'd need to find alternate routes. Characters had negative traits that were more than just a "-2 to rolls" or something similar: a party member with acrophobia might refuse to explore those mountain passes, or a violent temper might cause a negative result in a social interaction. You had to roleplay out of these situations - find another route, cast a spell to temporarily calm the party member, etc.

Are there any good, modern RPGs that fit this style anymore?

P.S. In b4 @ERYFKRAD reminds us of Realms of Arkania HD.

[Humbaba]

I don't think party members feeling like actual people is what most people would sort under "simulationism".



-Humbaba

[Dorateen]

I would guess, no.

Using the very apt Realms of Arkania example, one of the things to remember is that series was based on the pen and paper role-playing system, and much of that simulation stems from the approach of treating it like a table-top adventure, which is played on the computer. Modern games have moved away from the pnp heritage of the hobby, and seek a more cinematic experience. So you are seeing less of a style where the player can craft their own experience, rather than rely on the developer's ham fisted story.

[J1M]

Too expensive to set simulation expectations in the era of 4k pixels.

[rusty_shackleford]

Incompetent developers & designers who want to make movie-games.

[Lich]

I don't think party members feeling like actual people is what most people would sort under "simulationism".



-Humbaba

What are some things people would sort under simulationism in your opinion?

[rusty_shackleford]

Wizardry 8 party banter was nice.

Most of Wizardry 8 is nice, actually. Wish there were games inspired by it.

[Lich]

purchasing and management of traveling supplies was a huge part of the game. Mountain passes would be blocked off in cold weather, so you'd need to find alternate routes.

These were deemed unfun, therefore removed during "streamlining"
Anything that requires effort that isn't part of the game's main so-called gameplay loop tends to be removed from modern games or never developed. Mechanics that current game developers would consider janky often improved immersion and led to memorable experiences.

[Acrux]

gameplay loop

I hate that phrase. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

[Emphyrio]

Anything that requires effort that isn't part of the game's main so-called gameplay loop tends to be removed from modern games or never developed.

good

[Tweed]

I would guess, no.

Using the very apt Realms of Arkania example, one of the things to remember is that series was based on the pen and paper role-playing system, and much of that simulation stems from the approach of treating it like a table-top adventure, which is played on the computer. Modern games have moved away from the pnp heritage of the hobby, and seek a more cinematic experience. So you are seeing less of a style where the player can craft their own experience, rather than rely on the developer's ham fisted story.

RoK is one of the rare examples of doing this right. I've always loved the tone the game takes with the player.

[Decline]

The only simulationist tendencies there's still left in gaming total (not just RPG) is in survival games. The rest has been either replaced with arcade (FPS) or annihilated (RTS).

[SiMtRy]

As an extended example of the inability for game developers to make games, RPGs have steadily lost one of the major foundational aspects that used to define the genre.

The prime example here is the Realms of Arkania series - purchasing and management of traveling supplies was a huge part of the game. Mountain passes would be blocked off in cold weather, so you'd need to find alternate routes. Characters had negative traits that were more than just a "-2 to rolls" or something similar: a party member with acrophobia might refuse to explore those mountain passes, or a violent temper might cause a negative result in a social interaction. You had to roleplay out of these situations - find another route, cast a spell to temporarily calm the party member, etc.

Are there any good, modern RPGs that fit this style anymore?

P.S. In b4 @ERYFKRAD reminds us of Realms of Arkania HD.

The fault lies both on the incompetennce of modern developers and the dumbing down of the consumer base due to many factors.

Modern RPG players are normies who've never played PnP or any of the older CRPG Series you've mentioned with mechanics that has simulationist mechanics.

[rusty_shackleford]

BG3 was a slap in the face to everyone who said the gaming community demands simpler games. It might not seem like a difficult game to grognards, but it's a fairly decent adaptation of 5E with very little handholding, much to the chagrin of pnpers who have been fudging for years. It also goes beyond the rules and simulates a very reactive world true to many older CRPGs e.g., later Ultimas. And it was a smashing success.

Unless your target audience owns a playstation, you can safely assume the person buying your game probably has an above average intellect. Related to this, I assume BG3 probably sold poorly on the PS5.

[SiMtRy]

BG3 was a slap in the face to everyone who said the gaming community demands simpler games. It might not seem like a difficult game to grognards, but it's a fairly decent adaptation of 5E with very little handholding, much to the chagrin of pnpers who have been fudging for years. It also goes beyond the rules and simulates a very reactive world true to many older CRPGs e.g., later Ultimas. And it was a smashing success.

Unless your target audience owns a playstation, you can safely assume the person buying your game probably has an above average intellect. Related to this, I assume BG3 probably sold poorly on the PS5.

big gay 3 is literally 5e slop. There's literally no simulationist aspect to the system by default. Its not a system like Harn, which is highly simulationist in spirit.
Here's an actual live play blog of harnmaster, a simulationist system : https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2008 ... attic.html

[Boontaker]

BG3 was a slap in the face to everyone who said the gaming community demands simpler games. It might not seem like a difficult game to grognards, but it's a fairly decent adaptation of 5E with very little handholding, much to the chagrin of pnpers who have been fudging for years. It also goes beyond the rules and simulates a very reactive world true to many older CRPGs e.g., later Ultimas. And it was a smashing success.

Unless your target audience owns a playstation, you can safely assume the person buying your game probably has an above average intellect. Related to this, I assume BG3 probably sold poorly on the PS5.

big gay 3 is literally 5e slop. There's literally no simulationist aspect to the system by default. Its not a system like Harn, which is highly simulationist in spirit.
Here's an actual live play blog of harnmaster, a simulationist system : https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2008 ... attic.html

Harnmaster looks like ***, character creation involves rolling for every aspect of your character. Including how healthy you grew up, to things like who your parents were. It's an RPG system for normies who can't imagine their own hero or character.

"Oooh sorry bro, you rolled a 1 for race. That means your cool mage character we have spent the past hour generating is a ******! Isn't harnmaster a great system!?"

I have played a few of these random character generation games and they never work out, maybe for a two session thing but never long term. Someone gets lucky and is excited to play, everyone else's gets mediocre results and loses interest. The GM always says "uhh everyone make 3 characters and pick one you like" as if that makes anything better. Sure if you want a system to simulate something then RNG games like gurps could do it, but you get bogged down in so much mechanics that your not really playing a role-playing game at that point.

It's hard to care about the King and his magical realm when your barely functioning peasant swordsmen just lost his dominant hand to a beetle that rolled well.

[Lich]

BG3 was a slap in the face to everyone who said the gaming community demands simpler games... And it was a smashing success.

Could this have been in part due to a different kind of "smashing"?

[Boontaker]

BG3 was a slap in the face to everyone who said the gaming community demands simpler games... And it was a smashing success.

Could this have been in part due to a different kind of "smashing"?

Marketing degeneracy to the modern D&D crowd is a no-brainer if you want easy money. Larian could have released just the bear scene and gotten half as many sales from that alone

[Humbaba]

What are some things people would sort under simulationism in your opinion?

When you put water and flour together to make dough and then you put the dough near an oven and then the dough turns into bread and then you put the bread in your inventory.




-Humbaba

[rusty_shackleford]

Simulationism is when you pay a baker to buy bread and the money goes into the local economy improving the wealth of the town as a result.

[Acrux]

True simulationism has never really been tried.

[ERYFKRAD]

As an extended example of the inability for game developers to make games, RPGs have steadily lost one of the major foundational aspects that used to define the genre.

The prime example here is the Realms of Arkania series - purchasing and management of traveling supplies was a huge part of the game. Mountain passes would be blocked off in cold weather, so you'd need to find alternate routes. Characters had negative traits that were more than just a "-2 to rolls" or something similar: a party member with acrophobia might refuse to explore those mountain passes, or a violent temper might cause a negative result in a social interaction. You had to roleplay out of these situations - find another route, cast a spell to temporarily calm the party member, etc.

Are there any good, modern RPGs that fit this style anymore?

P.S. In b4 @ERYFKRAD reminds us of Realms of Arkania HD.

You had slightly similar aspects in the Expeditions series, where crew gained or lost morale based on your actions, like greedy people hating it when you are generous and all.
Curious Expeditions 2 also has some aspects of logistics and personality influencing actions but it's not much of an rpg.
Then there's the HD remake a game whose name escapes my memory now....

[agentorange]

Isn't Realms of Arkania one of those CRPGS where they give you a ton of skills at character creation that do absolutely nothing because they were only concerned with replicating the PNP material in word only. Not exactly what I would put up as a great example of simulationism in games, especially with an example like what you gave where it's just a binary check as to whether or not you have a certain phobia skill on your character or not.

A game like Thief is by a far better example of creating systems that interact with each other in a way that goes beyond binary checks, that is simulationism to me, and it's something that the vast majority of CRPGs sorely lack, trying to replicate the idea of improvising a solution to a problem in a PNP scenario that goes beyond a skill check.

[asf]

Good simulations are hard from a technical point of view. Can't expect dangerhair dev #2446 to come up with those.