How to model relationships with NPCs?

[rusty_shackleford]

A lot of games gave simplified relationship systems where you can give a gift and your relation with the character goes up. From Stardew Valley to Dragon Age Origins and so on. It's a very poor model of a much more complex process. Giving someone 17 vaguely gift-shaped items probably won't make that person your soulmate, unless she's the kind of person to go to Dubai. But I digress.

In fact, if someone repeatedly gave me gifts I'd be very suspicious.
Rapport is probably a good way to model relationships. I think one of the new xcom games had soldiers have affinity and become buddies if they went on enough missions together. Regular interactions in a positive way.
Not enough characters just inherently dislike others for certain reasons too.

---

Been playing a bit of hero's adventure and,
*gives 13 mystery novels to a merchant to make me his best friend in the world so I can take his stuff without it being called stealing*

[Bertram_Tung]

A lot of games gave simplified relationship systems where you can give a gift and your relation with the character goes up. From Stardew Valley to Dragon Age Origins and so on. It's a very poor model of a much more complex process. Giving someone 17 vaguely gift-shaped items probably won't make that person your soulmate, unless she's the kind of person to go to Dubai. But I digress.

In fact, if someone repeatedly gave me gifts I'd be very suspicious.
Rapport is probably a good way to model relationships. I think one of the new xcom games had soldiers have affinity and become buddies if they went on enough missions together. Regular interactions in a positive way.
Not enough characters just inherently dislike others for certain reasons too.

---

Been playing a bit of hero's adventure and,
*gives 13 mystery novels to a merchant to make me his best friend in the world so I can take his stuff without it being called stealing*

Midnight Suns had gift giving (that term sounds gay) where you had to pay attention to the NPC's dialogue and stuff for it to pay off. So like if you give the wrong gift they'll be like "uhhh whateverrrr"

[rusty_shackleford]

A lot of games gave simplified relationship systems where you can give a gift and your relation with the character goes up. From Stardew Valley to Dragon Age Origins and so on. It's a very poor model of a much more complex process. Giving someone 17 vaguely gift-shaped items probably won't make that person your soulmate, unless she's the kind of person to go to Dubai. But I digress.

In fact, if someone repeatedly gave me gifts I'd be very suspicious.
Rapport is probably a good way to model relationships. I think one of the new xcom games had soldiers have affinity and become buddies if they went on enough missions together. Regular interactions in a positive way.
Not enough characters just inherently dislike others for certain reasons too.

---

Been playing a bit of hero's adventure and,
*gives 13 mystery novels to a merchant to make me his best friend in the world so I can take his stuff without it being called stealing*

Midnight Suns had gift giving (that term sounds gay) where you had to pay attention to the NPC's dialogue and stuff for it to pay off. So like if you give the wrong gift they'll be like "uhhh whateverrrr"

I think giving gifts should fall off rapidly in terms of actual relationship value. If you know your friend wanted something specific and you bought it, they'd be elated. Or if you gave someone a housewarming gift.
A merchant might become your friend if you've been a loyal customer for a long time etc.,

[Oyster Sauce]

Characters in Fire Emblem become close by literally being close to each other on the battlefield.

[J1M]

Real life friendships are not that mysterious. Just model how they actually work, which is that friendship level is primarily a factor of how much time people spend together. Various competing elements will reduce the time spent together (the person smells bad, you would rather spend that time doing something else, they live far away) and thus limit the friendship level.

A thoughtful gift could be a one-time way of boosting friendship. But the main way to increase the bond should be to have emotionally charged experiences while spending time together (near-death experiences, winning a sports tournament, participating in a principled cause).

Also, I think the way Fire Emblem does it is stupid because it discourages tactical variety.

[Bertram_Tung]

honestly i think "Making friends" with NPCs is gay. If the NPC is supposed to be my friend then write it into the story. It doesn't matter, I just need to complete my quest.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I like how JRPGs and VNs do it, where you have to spend enough time with the girl you want to form enough of a relationship to be able to ask her out on a date near the end of the game.

Sakura Wars series had the most immersive execution I can recall. It used timed dialogue choices to make you more immersed and make the visual novel gameplay an engaging rather than a passive experience. The player has a short window of opportunity to choose a dialogue option. If the timer runs out, the player character remains silent, and the person they are conversing with will react as such. Sometimes, if you remain silent a few times in a row, they will think you're giving them the silent treatment and get mad at you. Sometimes remaining silent is the right answer. Depends on the character you are talking to and the situation. You can't always pick the "nice" answer (some of the girls like Sumire, Orihime, or Subaru will think you are a pathetic or a wimpy kiss *** if you do and boss you around).

By the 2/3rd point of the game, you reach the point where you have to pick amongst the characters you have raised high enough likeability to ask out on a date. Because most dialogue options will not satisfy everyone and will rub some people the wrong way, it is impossible to have everyone eligible at the end.

In SW2, your romance from the prior game gets imported over.

[Tadeusz]

Rapport is probably a good way to model relationships.

I like NWN2 system of influence points - you get them by doing what the character likes and lose them if you do what he doesn't like. It simulates rapport in a way as the influence grows over time if PC is compatible with the companion.
PoE2 goes even further and simulates relationships of every companion with each other depending on their traits, views and actual interactions throughout the game.

[logincrash]

A lot of games gave simplified relationship systems where you can give a gift and your relation with the character goes up. From Stardew Valley to Dragon Age Origins and so on. It's a very poor model of a much more complex process. Giving someone 17 vaguely gift-shaped items probably won't make that person your soulmate, unless she's the kind of person to go to Dubai. But I digress.

In fact, if someone repeatedly gave me gifts I'd be very suspicious.
Rapport is probably a good way to model relationships. I think one of the new xcom games had soldiers have affinity and become buddies if they went on enough missions together. Regular interactions in a positive way.
Not enough characters just inherently dislike others for certain reasons too.

---

Been playing a bit of hero's adventure and,
*gives 13 mystery novels to a merchant to make me his best friend in the world so I can take his stuff without it being called stealing*

Midnight Suns had gift giving (that term sounds gay) where you had to pay attention to the NPC's dialogue and stuff for it to pay off. So like if you give the wrong gift they'll be like "uhhh whateverrrr"

I think giving gifts should fall off rapidly in terms of actual relationship value. If you know your friend wanted something specific and you bought it, they'd be elated. Or if you gave someone a housewarming gift.

Funnily enough, that's exactly how it works in Dragon Age Origins.
Giving a companion a gift he would like nets you +10 Approval. Giving another one after that nets you +9. It goes down by one to the point that generic gifts that would give +5 the first time you give them rapidly bottom out at +1.

But I like the Friend/Rival system BioWare implemented in Dragon Age 2. It doesn't really work in a "they like/dislike you" way. It goes up or down because of how much you affirm their worldview. Maxing out Rivalry points means that you challenge them enough to make them reconsider said worldview.

[TKVNC]

The only good system is a M&B style reputation system where actions increase, or decrease opinion based on a personality type. Gifts are fine, but should reward minor bonuses, and if given frequently enough, little, with unwanted gifts reducing opinion - perhaps add it so too many gifts lowers opinion, and a lack of gifts after a lot adds a decay factor to opinion.

Games often fail to account for entropy toward indiference.

[sheet]

Giving someone 17 vaguely gift-shaped items probably won't make that person your soulmate, unless she's the kind of person to go to Dubai. But I digress.

This is a white perspective.

Doesn't Rimworld just have characters connect after a series of conversations, each one being a dice roll for positive or negative outcome? The Sims also has something similar iirc

[anvi]

I like dialogue choices determining whether they like you or not. Not just with the group character but with others in the game. But most games don't spend much effort on the dialogue choices or their consequences.

[maidenhaver]

I think having characters or followers level affinity as they complete quests or share supplies makes sense. Maybe include traits that give maluses, too "why are you giving me this" or "why'd you steal my kill." Or give a bonus, like Gimili and Legolas in the movies had that kill count competition.

[Tinky Winky]

SNCA foid issue

[Tweed]

Giving someone 17 vaguely gift-shaped items probably won't make that person your soulmate, unless she's the kind of person to go to Dubai. But I digress.

This is a white perspective.

Doesn't Rimworld just have characters connect after a series of conversations, each one being a dice roll for positive or negative outcome? The Sims also has something similar iirc

The Sims:

Talk to 40, compliment to 60, hug to 100, then throw them out, you need to make another 8 friends before you can get that next promotion.

[WaterMage]

I would prefer if relationship is something like Mount & Blade. IE - pure "political" marriage that affects family relationships and relations with other nobles.

[Tweed]

I would prefer if relationship is something like Mount & Blade. IE - pure "political" marriage that affects family relationships and relations with other nobles.

love.jpg

Ahh yes, nobles.

[Manny V]

I would prefer if relationship is something like Mount & Blade. IE - pure "political" marriage that affects family relationships and relations with other nobles.

Ahh yes, nobles.

we WAAAGH!ing in da bed dis toime

[Irenaeus]

But I like the Friend/Rival system BioWare implemented in Dragon Age 2. It doesn't really work in a "they like/dislike you" way. It goes up or down because of how much you affirm their worldview. Maxing out Rivalry points means that you challenge them enough to make them reconsider said worldview.

This reminds me of the NPC relations system in Alpha Protocol, which works like NWN2 and a lot of RPGs (+1 or +2 if you do or say something they like/-1 or -2 something they dislike). It was interesting getting the bonuses for making someone your enemy along with the obvious bonus for making someone your ally.

[roldet]

Slight correction to OP's post, Dao's gift system requires you to give specific items that requires knowledge about your companion's character and worldview. Random items do very little. Not a perfect system but at least requires some thought. Needlessy vilified by urinalist types bc it makes relationships "gamey" or whatever so we get "complex and thoughtful" BG3 faggotry instead.

[ThulsaDoomer]

My ideal would be a more complex form of rapport, where you have to play to the characters bias, have them around often, generally a rough emulation of what would build a friendship. As well as the ability to **** them off if you go against their beliefs often, making choices that they would judge you harshly for.

This would involve multiple systems, including a basic disposition system to track general attitude and adding additional checked values for favor and dislike, potentially others, although that would grow more complex at that stage. Perhaps leaving the complexity for specially written NPCs. I enjoy when npcs feel genuinely attached to their beliefs and motivations, and if the player proves an obstacle, then there is a consequence, as well as the reverse of that. It would require a bit more effort to balance NPCs if you're wanting to keep certain characters in the party, but it should be possible.

[Oyster Sauce]

You should have to meet love interests on dating apps

[nepbnhurj]

Take the Undertale approach and have the NPCs like the player character because of the player's choice to not kill each and every other character in the Underground.

A cool way to model a friend system in an RPG could be by assigning invisible attributes to the player based on their actions. These attributes would record stuff like weapon use and choice over time, honesty to NPCs, orderliness, etc and would combine to make behavioral qualities. For example, a "Good Samaritan" behavior could represent a willingness to help others and an unwillingness to lie.

NPCs would also possess these attributes. Based on how closely their two attribute tables align, the player character would perform better or worse in interaction with an NPC. The results of these interactions would contribute to an invisible score that determines how much the NPC likes the player character. There could even be attributes that reward or punish the player for repeatedly interacting with NPCs because of association; to become friends with one guy might mean becoming friends with another first.

I do not believe I have ever seen an RPG do anything like this. It would be difficult to pull off, but it'd standardize NPC creation and make sure that all interactions have a baseline level of quality to them.