Monsters & Memories

[Xenich]

Who would want to buy rat pelts or rat meat?

If I remember right, in EQ I think you could break them into leather (been a while) and I think rat meat could be used for some food making as well.

Yes, but it comes from rats. You can't kill your own rats? Diegetically, you're going to trust a gross parcel of mystery meat some guy tells you is from a rat? Who wants to eat a rat or wear rat skins anyway?

Well, if you have the cash, but not the time/skill to hunt, why wouldn't there be some people buying it? What about the street vendor who decides to pick up meat from the local hunters, etc...

It is one of those things I don't read into too much because I see it more from a mechanic perspective rather than the details of "realism".

[Stack of Turtles]

If I remember right, in EQ I think you could break them into leather (been a while) and I think rat meat could be used for some food making as well.

Yes, but it comes from rats. You can't kill your own rats? Diegetically, you're going to trust a gross parcel of mystery meat some guy tells you is from a rat? Who wants to eat a rat or wear rat skins anyway?

Well, if you have the cash, but not the time/skill to hunt, why wouldn't there be some people buying it? What about the street vendor who decides to pick up meat from the local hunters, etc...

It is one of those things I don't read into too much because I see it more from a mechanic perspective rather than the details of "realism".

I prefer the opposite, I don't care about the mechanical perspective at all. I want rich soulful worldbuilding that makes sense. I want vendors to only buy things they would reasonably have demand for, not just "offload your inventory full of random scraps on the first sucker you see in town". The more simulationist, the better.

In real-life history, only a very unscrupulous street vendor would buy mystery meat directly from a hunter, especially a foreign murderhobo with no local reputation. Generally, in major market towns, there would be either market officials or guilds restricting who could sell things. Butchers' guilds were powerful organizations who would definitely not look kindly on you selling some rat chunks out of your pocket. Things would be more informal in a small village, but then you'd have to be a local everyone knows to be trusted, and you wouldn't be selling meat for cash, either, but gifting or bartering it. And of course in some jurisdictions at certain times, like England, hunting large game was illegal outright for anyone outside the elite social apparatus (and those inside certainly would not stoop to selling anything), so you would be trading game, if at all, in a black market where, once again, reputation is everything.

In real life also, people who are so poor as not to be picky about where their next meal comes from most likely wouldn't be eating meat anyway, and would be subsisting off religious charity. So nobody would really be both willing and able to buy your gross pocket meat. After all, like I said, who would want to?

So this only works in settings where the player is part of a small village or tribal reputation network (which, again, wouldn't be trading in money), or maybe where some kind of magic is cheaply available to guarantee quality and provenance. In a more economically advanced setting, the food trade would be tightly controlled by guilds or other regulatory apparatus, so the player would have to participate in that instead; perhaps selling game only to a butcher's guild in the form of intact carcasses, allowing guild members to control the breakdown of the carcass into its more valuable parts (and the subsequent disposition of those parts).

Details like this matter to me!

[Xenich]

Yes, but it comes from rats. You can't kill your own rats? Diegetically, you're going to trust a gross parcel of mystery meat some guy tells you is from a rat? Who wants to eat a rat or wear rat skins anyway?

Well, if you have the cash, but not the time/skill to hunt, why wouldn't there be some people buying it? What about the street vendor who decides to pick up meat from the local hunters, etc...

It is one of those things I don't read into too much because I see it more from a mechanic perspective rather than the details of "realism".

I prefer the opposite, I don't care about the mechanical perspective at all. I want rich soulful worldbuilding that makes sense. I want vendors to only buy things they would reasonably have demand for, not just "offload your inventory full of random scraps on the first sucker you see in town". The more simulationist, the better.

In real-life history, only a very unscrupulous street vendor would buy mystery meat directly from a hunter, especially a foreign murderhobo with no local reputation. Generally, in major market towns, there would be either market officials or guilds restricting who could sell things. Butchers' guilds were powerful organizations who would definitely not look kindly on you selling some rat chunks out of your pocket. Things would be more informal in a small village, but then you'd have to be a local everyone knows to be trusted, and you wouldn't be selling meat for cash, either, but gifting or bartering it. And of course in some jurisdictions at certain times, like England, hunting large game was illegal outright for anyone outside the elite social apparatus (and those inside certainly would not stoop to selling anything), so you would be trading game, if at all, in a black market where, once again, reputation is everything.

In real life also, people who are so poor as not to be picky about where their next meal comes from most likely wouldn't be eating meat anyway, and would be subsisting off religious charity. So nobody would really be both willing and able to buy your gross pocket meat. After all, like I said, who would want to?

So this only works in settings where the player is part of a small village or tribal reputation network (which, again, wouldn't be trading in money), or maybe where some kind of magic is cheaply available to guarantee quality and provenance. In a more economically advanced setting, the food trade would be tightly controlled by guilds or other regulatory apparatus, so the player would have to participate in that instead; perhaps selling game only to a butcher's guild in the form of intact carcasses, allowing guild members to control the breakdown of the carcass into its more valuable parts (and the subsequent disposition of those parts).

Details like this matter to me!

I get it, honestly, I would love every detail to matter as well, but... that would take some serious forethought and attention to extreme detail and balancing. It would be VERY cool, and honestly... when EQ came out, I thought eventually this is where it would lead at some point, that we would go through iterations of trying to provide extreme detail, relevance, and RL balance to the various aspects of play.

Neither of us got that though. You didn't get the detailed world with extreme attention, and all the mechanical balance and play was thrown out for cheap gimmicks to monetize off of.

In short, we both got screwed.

Being that the cost to produce the level of detail you mention, while "possible" it isn't something a starter company is going to be able to attend to I think "reasonably", but... if they get mechanics right and produce a good "game play" system, maybe... if they are doing well enough, it will allow them the time and money to slowly implement this type of granular play system detail.

Or not... regardless, I get what you mean and it is a shame we never reached that potential and instead got cheap gimmicked **** for OCD types.

[Kalarion]

I could also vendor trash rat pelts or rat meat to random npcs.

Can't do that in M&M

You can. Cooks buy and sell animal parts, armorers buy and sell metallic armor, weaponsmiths buy and sell weapons and shields, cloth vendors buy and sell cloth and leather armor, and there are hide and pelt vendors that buy and sell skins. There are also a couple vendors (the most famous of which is the Shady Gnome) who will buy and re-sell anything, but you're going to lose out on a shitload of money. They make you pay for the convenience of selling anything to them. Both Charisma and your standing with the given merchant's faction also heavily affect price. During most of the playtests there was also a Commerce skill that went up as you bought and sold goods. I didn't get any Commerce skillups this last playtest, so it's possible it got axed (it's also possible my skill had just gotten high enough that further gains will take awhile).

There was a lot of complaining from people during the playtests on the vendors being picky (Tweed was one), but I like it. I find it both makes the game more immersive and rewards exploration of cities. Finding and marking in your mind the appropriate vendors for the right type of item is very satisfying.

[Tweed]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

[rusty_shackleford]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

It's called immersion, try it

[Tweed]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

It's called immersion, try it

You didn't enjoy the immersive trap on the bridge and the immersive kidnapping the bandits did in Outward.

[rusty_shackleford]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

It's called immersion, try it

You didn't enjoy the immersive trap on the bridge and the immersive kidnapping the bandits did in Outward.

The kidnapping was cool tho, the trap is stupid because why would there be no guards at a major bridge that presumably is used by caravans to access the town??

[Tweed]

It's called immersion, try it

You didn't enjoy the immersive trap on the bridge and the immersive kidnapping the bandits did in Outward.

The kidnapping was cool tho, the trap is stupid because why would there be no guards at a major bridge that presumably is used by caravans to access the town??

Because they were caught by the bandits with the trap.

[rusty_shackleford]

You didn't enjoy the immersive trap on the bridge and the immersive kidnapping the bandits did in Outward.

The kidnapping was cool tho, the trap is stupid because why would there be no guards at a major bridge that presumably is used by caravans to access the town??

Because they were caught by the bandits with the trap.

Yeah like I said it's stupid, not enough worldbuilding goes into games. The area around a town, and the roads near it, should be relatively safe!
FNV is one of the few games I can think of that actually thought about this, there's a good amount of discussion about how Caesar protects his traderoutes(and his territory in general) which makes it much safer for merchants.


[edit]
I'm sure some people will argue that's boring, and… maybe? But that would just be because you shouldn't be setting adventures in civilized lands that are under control of competent rulers?
It would be like setting FNV in Caesar's territory. Unless it was an anti-Legion game, what would you even do?

[Stack of Turtles]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

Me too, that's what games are for!

It would be like setting FNV in Caesar's territory. Unless it was an anti-Legion game, what would you even do?

Implement DEI until there's enough chaos to adventure in?

[Xenich]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

I can understand, but dividing who will by what does make sense. I mean, how do you think the car dealership is going to react when you walk in trying to sell your farms harvest?

I do agree with Kal on this issue, it provides more management (yes... you can see it as a time waster) to your goods and requires you to seek the right vendors. It allows the cities to fill out and be more "alive" instead of stacking a single vendor somewhere who buys and sells everything. It is a subtle aspect, yes it does slow play, but if you think about it, those "time wasters" over a range of game play aspects do create a longer lasting play in game. Sure, if your goal is simply to speed to max level the quickest way possible, this is an inconvenience, but then... don't we have a problem with modern games being so stream lined that people are done with the content in a week and then developers are having to come up with random "time wasters" to keep people occupied?

I personally would much rather have these so called "pointless" time sinks spread throughout play than have it back loaded at end game while I spin my wheels afk in some hub somewhere. /shrug

[Xenich]

I love it when a game that's designed around time sinks wastes even more of my time.

It's called immersion, try it

You didn't enjoy the immersive trap on the bridge and the immersive kidnapping the bandits did in Outward.

I liked outward, it had a very EQ feel to it, but with a lot of interesting features. Fun game.

[GhostCow]

I'm going to have to agree with Tweed. Realism is fun in games, but only to a point. In cases where realism makes something less fun, more of a timesink, or makes it feel like work, realism should be ignored.

[Xenich]

I'm going to have to agree with Tweed. Realism is fun in games, but only to a point. In cases where realism makes something less fun, more of a timesink, or makes it feel like work, realism should be ignored.

Should games be fun at every moment of play?

This is one thing I don't understand concerning this.

For instance, in the 80's... beating some of the arcade games, having to do this iteration over and over to get back to the last level you were was a "pain in the ***", not fun... especially if you were close and screwed up, meaning you had to start over again.

That said, arcade games were a blast and I loved playing them.

Same with EQ. Was being deep in a dungeon, having a complete wipe and then having it take the rest of the night to recover because of one issue after another, fun? Hell no! It sucked ***, it was miserable... Was it fun to have to run for a couple of hours through multiple zones to get somewhere because I didn't have run speed? No it sucked! Was losing a full level pulling my first Hate raid fun? Oh god no! None of that was fun, but it was the culmination of the various hardships, obstacles and requirements in play that made each step forward seem of value and it was the most enjoyable experience I had in any game since.

Frustration isn't fun. Difficult obstacles or requirements that take time, or have lots of failures are not fun. Fun isn't about being happy every moment of play, fun is in overcoming, meeting the requirements, defeating the obstacles, "Weathering the storm", and often doing some things that impede time all because it is the entire package that is fun and enjoyable.

Games shouldn't be joy and fun every moment of play. Honestly, I think it is that concept of expectation which have led to modern games being stripped of all elements of actual "game" play because a true game won't always be "fun", it will have its ups and downs and that is all part of the process.

[GhostCow]

Games aren't fun without something to challenge you. It sucked when Luclin came out and you had easy access to teleports instead of having to travel or pay for a port. There needs to be a balance. Having to run around to 50 different vendors to sell stuff isn't a challenge. It's just a timesink.

[Tweed]

EQ is a MUD, not an trade simulator. Time is a resource as much as anything else in an online game so having to go to a bunch of different vendors to dump loot on top of having to run back to down when players are expected to grind, camp, craft, LFG, hunt, corpse run, and whatever else the devs come up with is all time out of the player's budget.

[Stack of Turtles]

I'm going to have to agree with Tweed. Realism is fun in games, but only to a point. In cases where realism makes something less fun, more of a timesink, or makes it feel like work, realism should be ignored.

Should games be fun at every moment of play?

This is one thing I don't understand concerning this.

For instance, in the 80's... beating some of the arcade games, having to do this iteration over and over to get back to the last level you were was a "pain in the ***", not fun... especially if you were close and screwed up, meaning you had to start over again.

That said, arcade games were a blast and I loved playing them.

Same with EQ. Was being deep in a dungeon, having a complete wipe and then having it take the rest of the night to recover because of one issue after another, fun? Hell no! It sucked ***, it was miserable... Was it fun to have to run for a couple of hours through multiple zones to get somewhere because I didn't have run speed? No it sucked! Was losing a full level pulling my first Hate raid fun? Oh god no! None of that was fun, but it was the culmination of the various hardships, obstacles and requirements in play that made each step forward seem of value and it was the most enjoyable experience I had in any game since.

Frustration isn't fun. Difficult obstacles or requirements that take time, or have lots of failures are not fun. Fun isn't about being happy every moment of play, fun is in overcoming, meeting the requirements, defeating the obstacles, "Weathering the storm", and often doing some things that impede time all because it is the entire package that is fun and enjoyable.

Games shouldn't be joy and fun every moment of play. Honestly, I think it is that concept of expectation which have led to modern games being stripped of all elements of actual "game" play because a true game won't always be "fun", it will have its ups and downs and that is all part of the process.

I think this is one of the most fundamental difference between different playstyles.

No offense, @GhostCow and @Tweed, but you guys are personally ruining every game for me and Xenich

[rusty_shackleford]

Add a junk vendor that buys things at 1/5th what specific vendors buy at

[GhostCow]

Games shouldn't be fun every second you are playing them, but the unfun parts need to make the fun parts more fun. I don't get that from the vendor system in MnM

[rusty_shackleford]

Games shouldn't be fun every second you are playing them, but the unfun parts need to make the fun parts more fun. I don't get that from the vendor system in MnM

Imagine how most people feel about sitting in one spot killing an enemy that respawns!

[GhostCow]

Games shouldn't be fun every second you are playing them, but the unfun parts need to make the fun parts more fun. I don't get that from the vendor system in MnM

Imagine how most people feel about sitting in one spot killing an enemy that respawns!

I enjoy this because running around gets in the way of chatting with the party

[rusty_shackleford]

Vendors should have a set amount of moneys + there should be no useless items + vendors should trade with each other + there should be npcs buying stuff from vendors to use to make products to sell at a profit

Brad was right when he tried to make NPCs like players, which is why you talk and trade to them like one in EQ. We can do better now and should.

[Oyster Sauce]

Vendors should have a set amount of moneys + there should be no useless items + vendors should trade with each other + there should be npcs buying stuff from vendors to use to make products to sell at a profit

Brad was right when he tried to make NPCs like players, which is why you talk and trade to them like one in EQ. We can do better now and should.

Bannerlord does this and it's just kind of there. A feature for feature's sake.

[rusty_shackleford]

Vendors should have a set amount of moneys + there should be no useless items + vendors should trade with each other + there should be npcs buying stuff from vendors to use to make products to sell at a profit

Brad was right when he tried to make NPCs like players, which is why you talk and trade to them like one in EQ. We can do better now and should.

Bannerlord does this and it's just kind of there. A feature for feature's sake.

It's cool

[Oyster Sauce]

Vendors should have a set amount of moneys + there should be no useless items + vendors should trade with each other + there should be npcs buying stuff from vendors to use to make products to sell at a profit

Brad was right when he tried to make NPCs like players, which is why you talk and trade to them like one in EQ. We can do better now and should.

Bannerlord does this and it's just kind of there. A feature for feature's sake.

It's cool

It is cool, but it doesn't feel much different than faking everything.

[Xenich]

Games shouldn't be fun every second you are playing them, but the unfun parts need to make the fun parts more fun. I don't get that from the vendor system in MnM

Imagine how most people feel about sitting in one spot killing an enemy that respawns!

I like both aspects to be honest. Some times I like to go through a dungeon as a crawl, moving through the areas killing the next encounter, etc... this was a nice break from camping when WoW came out, so I get why some like this.

At the same time, I miss the concept of anticipating the spawn with a camp. From the first moment you enter the room hoping to see it up, to the breaking the room and being able to finally get the spawn cycle under control and then with each pop, hoping it will be the named. Long sitting is a problem though, I never cared for "easy" camps where the break and lockdown was quick and easy, yes... it does give more time to BS and chat which is fun at times, but it can also get a bit... slow.

I think the best balance is where the room breaks have to be mastered, where in most cases, there is very little "waiting" because by the time you cycle through the mobs, they are beginning to pop again and so the "camp" is a constant struggle to balance out keeping the room broke with having enough time to med up. When this balance is struck, the camps are a continual process of fighting almost non stop and then... having that named all of a sudden pop (who is often much more powerful), having to deal with it and trying to get it down before adds pop (which could often be an issue). This also doesn't take into consideration the problem of runners, who always seem to complicate things, or... the occasional "pather" on a long timers who wanders into the fight and happens to chain agro from some mobs guarding outside the room... all hell breaks loose and it becomes a fantastic struggle to not end up on a corpse run into a deep dungeon you know it is going to take hours to recover from.

Now that... yeah, that was fun.

So I like both, but I do miss camping, even if it is me solo camping some low mob to get an item I missed in the lower levels. There is just something about that... "anticipation".

Edit:

Also, as a puller, I never allowed my group to sit getting bored. If we cleared the room, I would pull the next room, and on... sometimes pushing them harder with multiple adds if they were killing too fast. Nice thing about camping is you can be slow or busy, it really is all up to the puller and group.

[rusty_shackleford]

Bannerlord does this and it's just kind of there. A feature for feature's sake.

It's cool

It is cool, but it doesn't feel much different than faking everything.

Faking it isn't cool so that's the difference.
Like how it's cool that eq vendors sell whatever is sold to them.

[Tweed]

Add a junk vendor that buys things at 1/5th what specific vendors buy at

They already have that except it seems to buy everything at one copper, so you might as well just destroy your loot at that point.

[Xenich]

Add a junk vendor that buys things at 1/5th what specific vendors buy at

They already have that except it seems to buy everything at one copper, so you might as well just destroy your loot at that point.

You know that old saying... "Save your coppers and your platinum will take care of itself!"