Looking for feedback on permadeath in RPG

[jforward5]

Hello everyone!

Let me start by saying I am NEW here. I am a solo indie app developer, and created an RPG. I went a somewhat non-traditional route with my attempt at an RPG, I made it a permadeath situation. Most players have found it to be fun, granted there are only about 30ish players right now. But the amount of time they spend in game is telling me that they are enjoying the concept.

Now the question: Do you feel that permadeath ruins an RPG's replayability?

Thank you in advance for being open to providing feedback. Also, I'm not here to self promote or advertise my game, BUT if you are interested I will share.

[Demonic Fate]

Permadeath goes hand in hand with random generation for a reason. Every time you die, all linear content has to be replayed. So either you have minimal/no linear content, or you ensure that the next time you replay the same content, it is measurably different.

Classic roguelikes go the first way. Modern roguelites go the latter.

In relatively-linear CRPGs like Baldur's Gate, permadeath can at most be an option for advanced players who beat the game before, because it would suck to replay Act 1 and 2 because you died at Myrkul.

[WhiteShark]

I have no problem with permadeath in roguelikes, but that's because they use procgen to make every run fresh. Challenges in turn-based games tend toward what I call 'puzzle difficulty'; in essence, the challenge lies in the solving, and once solved, there's no more challenge, just rote execution of the correct moves. Assuming your game is a typical RPG with static content, permadeath sounds at odds with the design: once an encounter is solved, it has little left to offer a player, and hence having to repeat it isn't a valuable use of his time.

That being said, I don't know the details of the game you made, so perhaps you found some other way to keep replays interesting. You're perfectly welcome to post your game if you like. I must admit I am curious, and it's rather hard to discuss whether permadeath is a good idea in your particular game without knowing the other aspects of the design.

[Fitz]

Hardcore runs are cool, but too taxing timewise most of the time. For me they best fit for the sort of player that has invested 10000+ hours into the game and is looking for an extra challenge, or is just farming content. It all really depends on how you integrate it into your game. The average consumer would definitely be off put by such a mechanic, but again that all depends on the game itself - so it's hard to comment on it without more context on the project.

► Show Spoiler

Cheap **** like this in a game that has perma-death is a big no. Unless you want to make your players suffer without any apparent reason.

[Demonic Fate]

► Show Spoiler

Cheap **** like this in a game that has perma-death is a big no. Unless you want to make your players suffer without any apparent reason.

That reminds me: it should be noted that BG3, as seen in this clip, lets you reload after a "permadeath" - your game will not count for the permadeath achievement, but you can finish the run if you want. That's important and something for @jforward5 to consider if appropriate

[Fitz]

Yup yup, more info on the game itself is needed for better suggestions or comments on it. Right now it's hard to throw ideas at him that aren't limited to the "everybody can say that about perma-death" bubble.

[jforward5]

Permadeath goes hand in hand with random generation for a reason. Every time you die, all linear content has to be replayed. So either you have minimal/no linear content, or you ensure that the next time you replay the same content, it is measurably different.

Classic roguelikes go the first way. Modern roguelites go the latter.

In relatively-linear CRPGs like Baldur's Gate, permadeath can at most be an option for advanced players who beat the game before, because it would suck to replay Act 1 and 2 because you died at Myrkul.

The measurably different is what I am doing. The map is procedurally created so it is different every single time you play. Each biome has a specific difficulty level, and I am careful not to drop the playing into a "Hard" biome right from the start, but they might be "near" it when they spawn, so there is always the chance of death prematurely.

[jforward5]

I have no problem with permadeath in roguelikes, but that's because they use procgen to make every run fresh. Challenges in turn-based games tend toward what I call 'puzzle difficulty'; in essence, the challenge lies in the solving, and once solved, there's no more challenge, just rote execution of the correct moves. Assuming your game is a typical RPG with static content, permadeath sounds at odds with the design: once an encounter is solved, it has little left to offer a player, and hence having to repeat it isn't a valuable use of his time.

That being said, I don't know the details of the game you made, so perhaps you found some other way to keep replays interesting. You're perfectly welcome to post your game if you like. I must admit I am curious, and it's rather hard to discuss whether permadeath is a good idea in your particular game without knowing the other aspects of the design.

In my RPG it's purely action based, no real puzzles to solve. There are some missions at the beginning of your survival run, so those could get "boring" or repetitive, but the "commentary" for the mission is skippable, the mission isn't skippable - but you can just choose not to complete it.

Also, I made it so that the character "Norman" has no max level - if you are good enough you can reach a very high level. You can also "quit" a session and continue later, so you can in theory (if you are good enough/survive) you could reach high enough levels that the enemies might never be able to kill Norman. Since every time Norman levels up he gets stronger - but so do the enemies, and the enemies multiply...an attempt to make the difficulty scale.

[logincrash]

Permadeath goes hand in hand with random generation for a reason. Every time you die, all linear content has to be replayed. So either you have minimal/no linear content, or you ensure that the next time you replay the same content, it is measurably different.

Classic roguelikes go the first way. Modern roguelites go the latter.

In relatively-linear CRPGs like Baldur's Gate, permadeath can at most be an option for advanced players who beat the game before, because it would suck to replay Act 1 and 2 because you died at Myrkul.

The measurably different is what I am doing. The map is procedurally created so it is different every single time you play. Each biome has a specific difficulty level, and I am careful not to drop the playing into a "Hard" biome right from the start, but they might be "near" it when they spawn, so there is always the chance of death prematurely.

Is the permadeath a game over where you have to restart in a new instance of the game world (in games like Noita or something)? Or is it a persistent world where you play new characters after each permadeath (like in that one Zombi-U game where you can find your previous character walking around as a zombie)?

[jforward5]

Hardcore runs are cool, but too taxing timewise most of the time. For me they best fit for the sort of player that has invested 10000+ hours into the game and is looking for an extra challenge, or is just farming content. It all really depends on how you integrate it into your game. The average consumer would definitely be off put by such a mechanic, but again that all depends on the game itself - so it's hard to comment on it without more context on the project.

► Show Spoiler

Cheap **** like this in a game that has perma-death is a big no. Unless you want to make your players suffer without any apparent reason.

The context is:

You are Norman, you survived the apocalypse. There are other "trapped" survivors that you can find scattered on the map. You can choose to rescue them or just battle and level up. As you level up you gain access to better weapons, special abilities, and more difficult enemies. Norman has no max level, so if you are able to survive for a very long time - you can quit and continue later, then you potentially could reach any level. But as you level up, the number of enemies you will encounter increases, and they become stronger - just as Norman becomes stronger. There are bosses for each Biome, 8 biomes 8 bosses. Each boss has certain special abilities, and the bosses can spawn in groups depending on Norman's level and where you are on the map. The map is an infinite world, and is procedurally generated to keep things interesting. In certain biomes there are neighborhoods, burnt out old cars/vehicles, buildings, homes, streets, etc. All the enemies are mutated animals, insects and machines. There are missions, unlockable "lore", info about the enemies, weapons, etc. The higher Norman's level the stronger weapons he can wield. Swords, guns, missile launchers, electrical weapons, plasma weapons (swords and guns).

Is that enough context?

[jforward5]

I have no problem with permadeath in roguelikes, but that's because they use procgen to make every run fresh. Challenges in turn-based games tend toward what I call 'puzzle difficulty'; in essence, the challenge lies in the solving, and once solved, there's no more challenge, just rote execution of the correct moves. Assuming your game is a typical RPG with static content, permadeath sounds at odds with the design: once an encounter is solved, it has little left to offer a player, and hence having to repeat it isn't a valuable use of his time.

That being said, I don't know the details of the game you made, so perhaps you found some other way to keep replays interesting. You're perfectly welcome to post your game if you like. I must admit I am curious, and it's rather hard to discuss whether permadeath is a good idea in your particular game without knowing the other aspects of the design.

SO, the game is ONLY available currently on MacOS and iOS - It's named Norman Lives
(here is the link - I hope it is ok to post it here)
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/norman-lives/id6759507674

[jforward5]

Hardcore runs are cool, but too taxing timewise most of the time. For me they best fit for the sort of player that has invested 10000+ hours into the game and is looking for an extra challenge, or is just farming content. It all really depends on how you integrate it into your game. The average consumer would definitely be off put by such a mechanic, but again that all depends on the game itself - so it's hard to comment on it without more context on the project.

► Show Spoiler

Cheap **** like this in a game that has perma-death is a big no. Unless you want to make your players suffer without any apparent reason.

LOL - The video, yea I would be ****** if I died for no reason like that. In Norman Lives this will never happen. YOU will know why you DIED! lol

Most of the time it is because you have been overrun by enemies and didn't run away in time lol.

[jforward5]

► Show Spoiler

Cheap **** like this in a game that has perma-death is a big no. Unless you want to make your players suffer without any apparent reason.

That reminds me: it should be noted that BG3, as seen in this clip, lets you reload after a "permadeath" - your game will not count for the permadeath achievement, but you can finish the run if you want. That's important and something for @jforward5 to consider if appropriate

Yea the interesting thing about Norman Lives is - this is TRUE permadeath. You lose everything, but there is meta progression. You can skill up Norman before a run to increase his chances of survival. Your skills are retained between runs, so there is a chance that at a certain point you will survive longer because you made Norman stronger - but I tried to make a tipping point so that Norman will never be so strong that it's not a challenge.

[jforward5]

Permadeath goes hand in hand with random generation for a reason. Every time you die, all linear content has to be replayed. So either you have minimal/no linear content, or you ensure that the next time you replay the same content, it is measurably different.

Classic roguelikes go the first way. Modern roguelites go the latter.

In relatively-linear CRPGs like Baldur's Gate, permadeath can at most be an option for advanced players who beat the game before, because it would suck to replay Act 1 and 2 because you died at Myrkul.

The measurably different is what I am doing. The map is procedurally created so it is different every single time you play. Each biome has a specific difficulty level, and I am careful not to drop the playing into a "Hard" biome right from the start, but they might be "near" it when they spawn, so there is always the chance of death prematurely.

Is the permadeath a game over where you have to restart in a new instance of the game world (in games like Noita or something)? Or is it a persistent world where you play new characters after each permadeath (like in that one Zombi-U game where you can find your previous character walking around as a zombie)?

It's a new game everytime, the world is procedurally created so it never the same starting area, and never the same layout. You always start with "Fists" as a weapon, but have a "lead pipe" in your inventory (to give Norman a fighting chance LOL).

[logincrash]

► Show Spoiler

Cheap **** like this in a game that has perma-death is a big no. Unless you want to make your players suffer without any apparent reason.

That reminds me: it should be noted that BG3, as seen in this clip, lets you reload after a "permadeath" - your game will not count for the permadeath achievement, but you can finish the run if you want. That's important and something for @jforward5 to consider if appropriate

Yea the interesting thing about Norman Lives is - this is TRUE permadeath. You lose everything, but there is meta progression. You can skill up Norman before a run to increase his chances of survival. Your skills are retained between runs, so there is a chance that at a certain point you will survive longer because you made Norman stronger - but I tried to make a tipping point so that Norman will never be so strong that it's not a challenge.

The measurably different is what I am doing. The map is procedurally created so it is different every single time you play. Each biome has a specific difficulty level, and I am careful not to drop the playing into a "Hard" biome right from the start, but they might be "near" it when they spawn, so there is always the chance of death prematurely.

Is the permadeath a game over where you have to restart in a new instance of the game world (in games like Noita or something)? Or is it a persistent world where you play new characters after each permadeath (like in that one Zombi-U game where you can find your previous character walking around as a zombie)?

It's a new game everytime, the world is procedurally created so it never the same starting area, and never the same layout. You always start with "Fists" as a weapon, but have a "lead pipe" in your inventory (to give Norman a fighting chance LOL).

This is just a regular roguelike then. It's a fine niche that plenty of people enjoy.

[WhiteShark]

This is just a regular roguelike then.

Nah, it sounds like an action roguelite:

In my RPG it's purely action based,

Your skills are retained between runs, so there is a chance that at a certain point you will survive longer because you made Norman stronger

Which I would hesitate to call an RPG, or even real permadeath given the metaprogression, but I understand the design better now.

[logincrash]

This is just a regular roguelike then.

Nah, it sounds like an action roguelite:

In my RPG it's purely action based,

Your skills are retained between runs, so there is a chance that at a certain point you will survive longer because you made Norman stronger

Which I would hesitate to call an RPG, or even real permadeath given the metaprogression, but I understand the design better now.

I say "tomato," you say "action tomatolite."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Valter]

In a regular game where I don't care about the story permadeath is enjoyable, victory always feels better when the stakes are higher. Otherwise I don't want it hampering me from experiencing the rest of the plot, though making it optional is fine.

[Fitz]

Yeah, sounds like a roguelike to me too - Rogue Legacy comes to mind, I liked that one a lot. I think it's a neat formula for a game, even better for a mobile one that's supposed to be played in short bursts. I feel games like that are the best when there is some extra mastery to the movement or where are plenty of different enemy types that the player has to learn how they want to cheese him. Any type of information or skill the player can gather/improve upon without having any real progression in the game, just getting better at the game engine from simply playing not so much by having items/spells. Call it gathering extra game knowledge or metadata if you will.

[Stack of Turtles]

Yeah, sounds like a roguelike to me too - Rogue Legacy comes to mind, I liked that one a lot. I think it's a neat formula for a game, even better for a mobile one that's supposed to be played in short bursts. I feel games like that are the best when there is some extra mastery to the movement or where are plenty of different enemy types that the player has to learn how they want to cheese him. Any type of information or skill the player can gather/improve upon without having any real progression in the game, just getting better at the game engine from simply playing not so much by having items/spells. Call it gathering extra game knowledge or metadata if you will.

Rogue Legacy was not in any sense a roguelike.

[Fitz]

So what's a roguelike?

[Stack of Turtles]

So what's a roguelike?

[Fitz]

Awesome. I always learn something new from you guys.

[The_Mask]

This is the type of question that no one can answer but yourself.

Are you making the RPG about the player? Then permadeath is least favorited, because the player is the focus of the story.

Are you making the RPG about everything BUT the player? Then permadeath is just another feature of the game, because the focus is the story. The player is just along for the journey OR what sets the story in motion.

* * *

I clicked the link for your game, but I didn't bother too hard to check what it is actually about. It's in the middle of the night here and I have a short fuse after a long day at work. But I can see that the few players you have had try your game, liked it.

That's good. Whatever you seem to be doing, seems to be working for the crowd you're making this RPG for.

[Stack of Turtles]

Awesome. I always learn something new from you guys.

okay, it's kind of weird that you didn't know that "roguelike" meant "games like Rogue", but, at the end of the day, I'm happy i was able to help.

[Fitz]

Awesome. I always learn something new from you guys.

okay, it's kind of weird that you didn't know that "roguelike" meant "games like Rogue", but, at the end of the day, I'm happy i was able to help.

Yeah, Hades, Risk of Rain or Rogue Legacy are my understanding of what the genre is about, but looks like I was wrong about that. The mix up on my end seems to be that there are both "rogue-likes" and "rogue-lites" and I've got experience only with the latter. Both aren't my type of genre but it sounds like an interesting topic to look into.

[Tweed]

So what's a roguelike?

https://www.roguebasin.com/index.php/Be ... rpretation

[Tweed]

If you want a better understanding beyond that, then play some.

There's loads of frustration to be had in Nethack, Angband, IVAN, ADOM, and so on.

[Demonic Fate]

If you want a better understanding beyond that, then play some.

There's loads of frustration to be had in Nethack, Angband, IVAN, ADOM, and so on.

ADOM was the only one of the classic roguelikes that actually grabbed me. I think it had in some ways a deeper level of design than the others - it felt like I was exploring a consistent world, rather than a pure procgen dungeon.

[nepbnhurj]

If the permadeath mechanic is unavoidable, sometimes it can ruin the roleplaying element by making players not care about their characters. "My guy is just going to die anyway"