Junior Adventurer's Guild: March - Wizardry 8

[Tangerine]

The team:

► Show Spoiler

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Completion:

► Show Spoiler

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@Oyster Sauce Badge me, bruv.

[Tangerine]

The good:
- The voice sets have a lot of personality without being obnoxious.
- Lots of neat places to visit that (mostly) don't overstay their welcome.
- Gadgeteer is a cool class, and like in VI, bards are useful too. I like utility classes that don't blow.
- In addition to standard fantasy races, you've got races like the rhino and tree rodent people to mix things up.
- There are multiple solutions to some quests. You can side with the Umpani or the T'Rang, or you can get them to form an alliance to shoot down the Dark Savant's ship.

The bad:
- The game is clearly rushed/unfinished. You've got characters that seem like they should be important that are just there.
- With how much you have to travel Arnika Road, it is one of the most annoying areas in the game. I suspect the level scaling here is wrong.
- Attack magic is mostly useless by the end game. Your casters are going to be more focused on debuffs than attacks.
- Dual-wielding sucks. You're not going to find a lot of good weapons for the off-hand.
- The mid-game is the roughest part because the aggressive level-scaling is going to outpace you.
- Even with battles greatly sped up, they're a time sink, especially with how frequent they are.

[Dorateen]

@Oyster Sauce I would like to request a badge for completing Wizardry 8 back in April 2002.

Documentation:

► Show Spoiler

Note, this party was imported from Wizardry VII to conclude the Cosmic Forge trilogy.

[Tangerine]

RPC area restrictions are mildly annoying. Myles won't go to any of the higher level areas, and Vi won't go under water, for instance. It's soulful that they have preferences and fears about locations, though.

[Tadeusz]

RPC area restrictions are mildly annoying.

True. RPCs can still be dragged to these locations but their constant complaints there are annoying as well.

[Oyster Sauce]

I hope everybody has nominated something

[Tangerine]

What's been nominated so far?

[Oyster Sauce]

@Tangerine
Tadeusz - Two Worlds 2
@Dorateen
J1m - On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3

[Tangerine]

Two Worlds 2 is fine by me.

[J1M]

Let's go, J1M's 2012 GOTY!

[Tweed]

April is the cruelest month.

[Dorateen]

I nominate the first knights of the chalice

[Kalarion]

Completed.

The entrance to the much-spoken Cosmic Circle

My party was Kalarion, a Human Lord:

► Stats

He wasn't really much use except as a subpar meatshield until well into the mid-game, when I got Diamond Eyes and started finding decent main-hand weapons. I ended up main-handing The Mauler on him, a super powerful mace that came with a big initiative penalty.

@WhiteShark, a Felpurr Samurai:

► Stats

Unlike Kal, Whiteshark was useful throughout play. Early obtaining of Samurai armor meant he was difficult to kill from the beginning, and his Critical Strike and flurry skills were always appreciated. He ended up taking Ivory Blade (the best crafted weapon) and a generic Enchanted Wakizashi.

@DagothGeas5, a female Mook Bard:

► Stats

I made Dagoth a Mook hoping to use the Mook-only two-handed sword in the late game. Unfortunately it's only useable on fighting classes, so I was out of luck. It didn't matter, she was a party mainstay throughout the game, with the earliest ability to spam AoE attacks and access to a ton of great buffs and debuffs. She was also a good place to drop my Bloodlust, once I got better weapons for Kal and Whiteshark. Late game she could keep the entire party alive easily with a minimum of stamina support.

@Acrux, a Human Bishop:

► Stats

Life sucked until I stopped obsessing about getting every single seventh level spell. Once I started using my spell picks for critical buffs and debuffs, Acrux became a beast. I changed him over to Bishop from Priest at level 8, which ensured that he wasn't struggling to provide utility as a Bishop (a common problem for characters that begin play as one).

@rusty_shackleford, a Hobbit Gadgeteer:

► Stats

Rusty struggled initially, spamming the Lightning Rod for weak single-target damage until I finally started finding more components to make better gadgets. It took longer than usual because, instead of following the clearly marked early-game path, I immediately went gallivanting off around the entire game world. He was around level 12 before I finally made my second gadget . Once the gadgets started coming in he became another mainstay. Highlights included the Omnigun getting the arrow/quarrel attachment, and a gadget that cast Superman (a badass combat buff that costs a lot of mana per power level).

And finally, Pixie, a female Faerie Bishop:

► Stats

I agree with @J1M that playing a Faerie kinda sucks, but for different reasons. Pixie was never really in danger of dying unless I got surrounded. Her innate resistances stacked very conveniently with Magic Screen and Soul Shield, meaning she would consistently take zero or low damage while everyone else was busy getting shocked, burned and their eardrums blown out. However the severe itemization restrictions really hurt, especially after the midgame, when items with great bonuses started to become available. Faeries do get access to the best single-handed weapon in the game, but I don't judge playing a front-liner Faerie with **** itemization to be worth the headache when it takes awhile (and a high level party) to get it. Nevertheless, Pixie was an AoE spamming beast and absolutely blew every other character out of the water on spellcasting skills. Pixie was class changed into Bishop from Mage at level 8, similar to Acrux.

RPCs were Vi (Human female Valkyrie) and RFS-81 (Savant Trooper Monk).

Thots:
PROs
- Excellent "under-the-hood" crunchiness. The game details so many things well: positioning, maneuver in combat, stat interactions, inventory management, character growth... it's great, and I fully agree with Rusty that this game is the best in its class.
- A huge, detailed world with tons of nooks and crannies for exploration. I do agree with J1M that most of the dungeons were uninspired, but some standouts carry the whole show on that front; the Monastery, Trynton and the Rapax Castle.
- Character development is incredibly satisfying.
- A wide variety of equipment, with a bunch of niche **** that gives all kinds of race/class combinations something fun to play with. Highlights include Faerie Ninjas getting the best weapon in the game, Mook fighter classes getting one of the best 2-handed swords, a full set of equipment named after famous characters from literature (primarily Shakespeare—the Bard, GEDDIT!) for Bards, a Rawulf sword and more.
- Interesting recruitable character mechanics. Not only is there a big selection of NPCs to recruit, most of unique races and with their own equipment, but they have a nifty system of preference for what areas they'll go to. You can circumvent a character's refusal to enter a given zone, but he suffers a huge penalty to all stats while you're there. I think it's cool and gives tradeoff considerations that are meaningful.
- A lot of different environments that keeps the game looking fresh. I don't agree with those who don't like the bolting on of advanced technology and futurepunk. It's nonsensical but it's also fun, so I roll with it.
- Sirtech did the economy right. There is always something you're scrimping and saving for, even if (like me) you engage in a little degenerate Rapax farming. I spent close to a million gold throughout the game, and I still needed hundreds of thousands more to fully trick out my party. I approve!
- EIGHT MAN PARTY! HELL YES!

CONs
- The combat engine and encounter mechanics are clunky, repetitive, and not well-suited to the sometimes massive enemy forces you fight in this game. 3 clicks per character action, then watching the round play out, including individual movement and spellcasting, is fine when you're facing like six or eight monsters. When you're facing twenty or more, it's a huge chore and makes you consider suicide. If any game were a candidate for a really excellent remaster that overhauls the engine, it's this one.
- As J1M already said, most of the actual dungeons are uninspired and routine as far as exploration goes.
- Certain very important considerations are not well explained, including how skill ups by use work and certain itemization questions. I have in mind one of the best custom weapons in the game, the Vampire Chain, which is very expensive but doesn't anywhere tell the player that it's 2-handed. I did not appreciate wasting 60,000 gold on an expected upgrade for Kal only to find it wouldn't be worth it for him to use
- Speaking of itemization, locking almost all of the best dropped weapons behind a small random chance from seeded chests in the late game was a terrible decision. I can understand this design if the game only takes twenty or twenty-five hours to complete. Just roll with what you got and start a new playthrough! When it takes forty to eighty hours, it's maddening.

All in all one of my favorite games of all time, and I will definitely be replaying it... after a long break

GIB BADGE!

[rusty_shackleford]

Wonder if any of you noticed that there's a bunch of rare enemies with a very low % spawn chance, some of which can only spawn in certain level ranges

Only reason I know of them is I saw them in the editor

[Oyster Sauce]

Completed.

The entrance to the much-spoken Cosmic Circle

My party was Kalarion, a Human Lord:

► Stats

He wasn't really much use except as a subpar meatshield until well into the mid-game, when I got Diamond Eyes and started finding decent main-hand weapons. I ended up main-handing The Mauler on him, a super powerful mace that came with a big initiative penalty.

@WhiteShark, a Felpurr Samurai:

► Stats

Unlike Kal, Whiteshark was useful throughout play. Early obtaining of Samurai armor meant he was difficult to kill from the beginning, and his Critical Strike and flurry skills were always appreciated. He ended up taking Ivory Blade (the best crafted weapon) and a generic Enchanted Wakizashi.

@DagothGeas5, a female Mook Bard:

► Stats

I made Dagoth a Mook hoping to use the Mook-only two-handed sword in the late game. Unfortunately it's only useable on fighting classes, so I was out of luck. It didn't matter, she was a party mainstay throughout the game, with the earliest ability to spam AoE attacks and access to a ton of great buffs and debuffs. She was also a good place to drop my Bloodlust, once I got better weapons for Kal and Whiteshark. Late game she could keep the entire party alive easily with a minimum of stamina support.

@Acrux, a Human Bishop:

► Stats

Life sucked until I stopped obsessing about getting every single seventh level spell. Once I started using my spell picks for critical buffs and debuffs, Acrux became a beast. I changed him over to Bishop from Priest at level 8, which ensured that he wasn't struggling to provide utility as a Bishop (a common problem for characters that begin play as one).

@rusty_shackleford, a Hobbit Gadgeteer:

► Stats

Rusty struggled initially, spamming the Lightning Rod for weak single-target damage until I finally started finding more components to make better gadgets. It took longer than usual because, instead of following the clearly marked early-game path, I immediately went gallivanting off around the entire game world. He was around level 12 before I finally made my second gadget . Once the gadgets started coming in he became another mainstay. Highlights included the Omnigun getting the arrow/quarrel attachment, and a gadget that cast Superman (a badass combat buff that costs a lot of mana per power level).

And finally, Pixie, a female Faerie Bishop:

► Stats

I agree with @J1M that playing a Faerie kinda sucks, but for different reasons. Pixie was never really in danger of dying unless I got surrounded. Her innate resistances stacked very conveniently with Magic Screen and Soul Shield, meaning she would consistently take zero or low damage while everyone else was busy getting shocked, burned and their eardrums blown out. However the severe itemization restrictions really hurt, especially after the midgame, when items with great bonuses started to become available. Faeries do get access to the best single-handed weapon in the game, but I don't judge playing a front-liner Faerie with **** itemization to be worth the headache when it takes awhile (and a high level party) to get it. Nevertheless, Pixie was an AoE spamming beast and absolutely blew every other character out of the water on spellcasting skills. Pixie was class changed into Bishop from Mage at level 8, similar to Acrux.

RPCs were Vi (Human female Valkyrie) and RFS-81 (Savant Trooper Monk).

Thots:
PROs
- Excellent "under-the-hood" crunchiness. The game details so many things well: positioning, maneuver in combat, stat interactions, inventory management, character growth... it's great, and I fully agree with Rusty that this game is the best in its class.
- A huge, detailed world with tons of nooks and crannies for exploration. I do agree with J1M that most of the dungeons were uninspired, but some standouts carry the whole show on that front; the Monastery, Trynton and the Rapax Castle.
- Character development is incredibly satisfying.
- A wide variety of equipment, with a bunch of niche **** that gives all kinds of race/class combinations something fun to play with. Highlights include Faerie Ninjas getting the best weapon in the game, Mook fighter classes getting one of the best 2-handed swords, a full set of equipment named after famous characters from literature (primarily Shakespeare—the Bard, GEDDIT!) for Bards, a Rawulf sword and more.
- Interesting recruitable character mechanics. Not only is there a big selection of NPCs to recruit, most of unique races and with their own equipment, but they have a nifty system of preference for what areas they'll go to. You can circumvent a character's refusal to enter a given zone, but he suffers a huge penalty to all stats while you're there. I think it's cool and gives tradeoff considerations that are meaningful.
- A lot of different environments that keeps the game looking fresh. I don't agree with those who don't like the bolting on of advanced technology and futurepunk. It's nonsensical but it's also fun, so I roll with it.
- Sirtech did the economy right. There is always something you're scrimping and saving for, even if (like me) you engage in a little degenerate Rapax farming. I spent close to a million gold throughout the game, and I still needed hundreds of thousands more to fully trick out my party. I approve!
- EIGHT MAN PARTY! HELL YES!

CONs
- The combat engine and encounter mechanics are clunky, repetitive, and not well-suited to the sometimes massive enemy forces you fight in this game. 3 clicks per character action, then watching the round play out, including individual movement and spellcasting, is fine when you're facing like six or eight monsters. When you're facing twenty or more, it's a huge chore and makes you consider suicide. If any game were a candidate for a really excellent remaster that overhauls the engine, it's this one.
- As J1M already said, most of the actual dungeons are uninspired and routine as far as exploration goes.
- Certain very important considerations are not well explained, including how skill ups by use work and certain itemization questions. I have in mind one of the best custom weapons in the game, the Vampire Chain, which is very expensive but doesn't anywhere tell the player that it's 2-handed. I did not appreciate wasting 60,000 gold on an expected upgrade for Kal only to find it wouldn't be worth it for him to use
- Speaking of itemization, locking almost all of the best dropped weapons behind a small random chance from seeded chests in the late game was a terrible decision. I can understand this design if the game only takes twenty or twenty-five hours to complete. Just roll with what you got and start a new playthrough! When it takes forty to eighty hours, it's maddening.

All in all one of my favorite games of all time, and I will definitely be replaying it... after a long break

GIB BADGE!

You should have named your pixie "Alicia"

[Kalarion]

Some stuff I learned which may be helpful for consideration in character development regarding skills. Skills increasing by use isn't really explained at all. You get some hints from attribute and skill descriptions (and from practice) but that's it. Here are some general principles, with detailed mechanics in spoilers.

- Attributes contribute a very small amount to the combat stats they're tied to. They are also the primary factor in the speed of skill growth for which they are part of a controlling pair, and may be the primary determinant in certain abilities. E.g., Dexterity contributes a small bonus to Attack score and chance to penetrate. It's also the primary determinant on how many swings you get per attack.

- Skills levelling by use is primarily determined by: the average of the skill's controlling attributes (higher attributes = faster leveling), the level the skill is already at (higher skill = slower leveling), and the number of times you use an action governed by a skill. Some actions will level skills faster than others, primarily spellcasting. You can gain multiple increases to a single skill from a single combat; the skill increase popup will show the highest skill increase you got (e.g., if your Close Combat skill went from 45 to 48 in a fight, the popup would only show the increase to 48).

► Detailed Explanation

Each skill has a pair of controlling attributes, listed in their description on right-click. Each time you use an action governed by a skill, the game rolls a chance to improve the skill. The chance to improve is:

Code: Select all

X < (100 - <current skill>) * ((<Control Attribute 1> + <Control Attribute 2>)/2) * .01

Where X is a random number between 1 and 100. Essentially, your skill is soft-capped by the average of its controlling attributes. It is always possible to get a success due to an improvement chance floor that I don't know exactly. I suspect it is 1%.

A skill requires eight improvement successes in order to level up once by use.

Most actions give a single improvement roll per use, however there are exceptions. In particular, spells give multiple improvement rolls per cast, with different formulas for spellcasting school (Fire, Divine, etc) vs. spellcasting book (Divinity, Wizardry, etc). The formulas are:

Code: Select all

Book: (<Power Level> + <Spell Level> +2)/4
School: <Power Level> + <Spell Level>

This implies that spamming low-power and -cost spells is more efficient, both in mana usage and speed of leveling, than high-power and -cost spells. You'll get ridiculously more improvement rolls per full mana pool out of repeatedly casting Energy Blast at power 7 than you will Fireball at power 7.

- Certain actions which can raise skills come with a real-world timer before they're allowed to raise the skill again. This applies primarily to actions that can be used outside combat. Spamming them outside combat is not helpful; cast or use them once and then forget about them until it would naturally be time to use them again (e.g., when a buff's timer expires).

► Detailed Explanation

Most actions that can raise skills by use out of combat come with a 3 minute real-world timer before a new improvement roll(s) is made. So, casting Light once will give you the standard number of improvement rolls. Casting it again does nothing until three minutes have passed. This can be circumvented with a save/load.

Two notable exceptions to this rule are the spells Divine Trap and Knock-Knock; and the Locks & Traps skill. The devs apparently forgot to code the timer for them. Spamming Divine Trap and Knock-Knock on chests are very easy ways to raise Mental/Divinity skill and Earth/Wizardry skill. It's also totally safe. As long as you don't try to cast it outside a "safe" power level (anything other than Green) and don't try to cast for more sp than you have left, Divine Trap will not trigger the trap. Click a trapped/locked chest, spam DT/KK until your casters' SP run out, leave the chest without opening/disarming, camp to regain mana, rinse and repeat. The same goes for Locks and Traps, with a little more risk. Find a safe chest, spam inspecting the trap until you're satisfied with your skill. I suggest using one of the chests in He'Li's inn for this purpose. This works for picking the lock as well (just leave the chest before raising all tumblers), but it takes a little longer than trap inspection because lock tumblers give only a fraction of an improvement roll, while inspection gives a full roll per inspect/disarm action.

[Kalarion]

Wonder if any of you noticed that there's a bunch of rare enemies with a very low % spawn chance, some of which can only spawn in certain level ranges

Only reason I know of them is I saw them in the editor

This reminded me of another CON for the game. You fight a lot of unique enemies, some of boss power and many not, with the potential to fight even more randomly. But they almost never drop unique or cool loot. This was a huge missed opportunity. Fighting Gregor or Nessy and getting... a potion of Heavy Heal?! was a massive letdown. The notable exception is Don Barlone, an entirely optional fight that can be rough without preparation, who rewards the Cane of Corpus.

[rusty_shackleford]

Wonder if any of you noticed that there's a bunch of rare enemies with a very low % spawn chance, some of which can only spawn in certain level ranges

Only reason I know of them is I saw them in the editor

This reminded me of another CON for the game. You fight a lot of unique enemies, some of boss power and many not, with the potential to fight even more randomly. But they almost never drop unique or cool loot. This was a huge missed opportunity. Fighting Gregor or Nessy and getting... a potion of Heavy Heal?! was a massive letdown. The notable exception is Don Barlone, an entirely optional fight that can be rough without preparation, who rewards the Cane of Corpus.

The loot drops are like 1-2% iirc, really silly choice, maybe they played too much diablo 2 (easy to forget that this postdates diablo 2!)
definitely two things I'd like to fix with mods

[J1M]

Wonder if any of you noticed that there's a bunch of rare enemies with a very low % spawn chance, some of which can only spawn in certain level ranges

Only reason I know of them is I saw them in the editor

Would have no idea it was a rare spawn if I saw it.