[4e] The elemental power source (design exploration)

[J1M]

The initial ideas around 4th edition involved making the combat roles more clear (Defender, Striker, Controller, Leader/Healer) and theming groups of classes around different power sources (Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal/Nature, Psionic, Elemental, Shadow). Things didn't work out as planned. The elemental power source was folded into the primal and arcane power sources.

Given what was published in PHB 1-3, it seems clear the initial plan was to show how thematically each power source was expressed in the world through each of the 4 combat roles. (I'd argue that the Rogue or Ranger probably started out as a Martial Controller before pushback in playtesting since two Martial Strikers is an outlier in the distribution.) The Divine power source was stretched quite a bit to fit this mold via the Avenger, which was a lightly armored large weapon user that people seemed to generally like due to its use of an early Advantage mechanic that allowed the player to roll 2d20 and take the best result for its attacks.

We also know from the essentials line which came later that they were considering the Sorcerer to be an elemental class, which makes sense given their typical spell choices and association with dragons.

That aside, how should a flight of classes for an elemental power source be designed? That's what this thread is about.

Assumptions:

• One class for each of the 4 roles
• The four elements will play a central theme
• It would feel 'tidy' if each of the four classes leaned towards a different one of the four elements
• Giving every class 4 paths to build along corresponding to all four elements (Pathfinder Kineticist, various Elementalists) would be lame
• Incorporating a class related to dragons in some way would be thematically appropriate (flavor of Dragon Disciple from 3.5)
• I want to include an Alchemist class due to their connection to the classical elements
• I want to include a Geomancer class because they deserve more attention and have much more potential than being a tertiary aspect of the Druid class

Association of elements with roles based on other games:

• Earth: Defender, possibly also Controller
• Fire: Striker
• Wind: ???
• Water: Leader/Healer

Elemental classes and primary element:

• Geomancer: Earth, Fire
• Sorcerer: Fire, Air (lightning)
• Alchemist: Fire, Water

Elemental classes and likely role:

• Geomancer: Controller
• Sorcerer: Striker
• Alchemist: Varied, the Pathfinder iteration has grenades, buffs, area control

My conclusions informed by the above lists.

Geomancer (Controller, Earth)
I weigh the inclusion of a Geomancer class as more important than associating earth with the defender, and the terrain manipulation the Geomancer implies is clearly a type of controller.

Sorcerer (Striker, Fire)
There needs to be blaster caster to contrast with the Wizard (arcane controller). It's a class fantasy lots of people enjoy. This seems like a natural fit.

Alchemist (Leader/Healer, Water?)
Tossing potions and elixirs to heal and augment allies. Element mixing mechanic for limited buff customization. Has adventure hooks involving collecting rare materials for transmutation and the creation of a philosopher's stone. Combat ability related to salt.

Dragoon (Defender, Air)
Combines elements from the Final Fantasy dragoon (spear, leaps), and elements of dragon apotheosis from the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Basically a dragon knight that becomes more of a dragon (limited flight) and more of a knight as it levels up.


Idea that almost made the cut:

Oracle (Leader/Healer, Water)
Also considered Stormcaller or Sage for the class name. Focuses on command of the weather. Soothing rain/mist for recovery. Control of wind to allow allies to move faster. An element of predicting the future would also be present because predicting the weather is such an important aspect of weather. Might work better as a Primal replacement for the Shaman or Seeker, which I felt were weaker designs.


How would you approach this design task?

[Stack of Turtles]

I think this was always fundamentally bad design.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I've always thought that Earth would also be appropriate for a healer, first with roots absorbing nutrients from the ground, and then Wuxia and Xianxia stories where they are constantly seeking out the ingredients to create and consume magic pills that have magical properties, including restorative ones. Men were also made from dust, so control over the earth could also include control to reshape and mend the body.

Water seems to be commonly pigeonholed as the healer, with its lethal properties overlooked. Factories use pressurized water to cut steal. Goblin Slayer used a scroll to open a portal at the bottom of the ocean and use the high pressure spray to bisect a giant. It could also make for a good crowd control class, by forcing people to wade through water and then being able to very easily push them with waves.

A wind defender could also weave obfuscating mists or smokes or mirages around himself or the enemy to hide or distract the enemy from your true position, making their attacks miss. Though I suppose the light manipulation of mirages could also overlap with water.

[Norfleet]

I've always thought that Earth would also be appropriate for a healer, first with roots absorbing nutrients from the ground, and then Wuxia and Xianxia stories where they are constantly seeking out the ingredients to create and consume magic pills that have magical properties, including restorative ones. Men were also made from dust, so control over the earth could also include control to reshape and mend the body.

Okay, so now we're in Chinese elements. But Chinese elementalism has somewhat different set of 5 rather than 4 elements, and slightly different associated traditions.

Water seems to be commonly pigeonholed as the healer, with its lethal properties overlooked.

Not really. Water is generally also associated with ice and flooding-based attacks. It's just that water is often pigeonholed as a healer because action economy and game mechanics tend to cause you to spec into healing because nothing ELSE is tends to give much in the way of healing, so people increasingly expect to find the healing there. Also for some annoying reason, you might have a full roster of healing spells and a mana pool you can dump every battle, but units damaged in battle must be healed IN the battle or basically not at all, because for some reason you can't cast any healing OUT of battle no matter how many turns pass, even when you could theoretically fight an arbitrarily large number of battles in a single turn, forcing you to purposefully stall the ending of a battle just so you can make sure everyone is healed up for the NEXT battle.

[J1M]

I've always thought that Earth would also be appropriate for a healer, first with roots absorbing nutrients from the ground, and then Wuxia and Xianxia stories where they are constantly seeking out the ingredients to create and consume magic pills that have magical properties, including restorative ones. Men were also made from dust, so control over the earth could also include control to reshape and mend the body.

Okay, so now we're in Chinese elements. But Chinese elementalism has somewhat different set of 5 rather than 4 elements, and slightly different associated traditions.

Water seems to be commonly pigeonholed as the healer, with its lethal properties overlooked.

Not really. Water is generally also associated with ice and flooding-based attacks. It's just that water is often pigeonholed as a healer because action economy and game mechanics tend to cause you to spec into healing because nothing ELSE is tends to give much in the way of healing, so people increasingly expect to find the healing there. Also for some annoying reason, you might have a full roster of healing spells and a mana pool you can dump every battle, but units damaged in battle must be healed IN the battle or basically not at all, because for some reason you can't cast any healing OUT of battle no matter how many turns pass, even when you could theoretically fight an arbitrarily large number of battles in a single turn, forcing you to purposefully stall the ending of a battle just so you can make sure everyone is healed up for the NEXT battle.

What game are you referring to?

[Norfleet]

What game are you referring to?

LOTS of them. Just HOW many games let you heal from practically dead to full, at little to no cost...as long as you are in a fight, but suddenly when you're NOT in a fight, you only get the absolutely terrible "natural" heal that takes place over ages on the overmap, resulting in the need to pick easy fights or drag out existing fights so you can heal everyone back up before finishing off the last enemy?

[J1M]

What game are you referring to?

LOTS of them. Just HOW many games let you heal from practically dead to full, at little to no cost...as long as you are in a fight, but suddenly when you're NOT in a fight, you only get the absolutely terrible "natural" heal that takes place over ages on the overmap, resulting in the need to pick easy fights or drag out existing fights so you can heal everyone back up before finishing off the last enemy?

I was hoping you had a few examples. I've definitely seen this problem, but usually more in the form of last hit granting XP so you have to stretch out combat to spread XP in the party.

[rusty_shackleford]

What game are you referring to?

I don't know if you were referring to this part of his post, but Water contains the primary healing spells in Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2

It also contains non-healing spells

[J1M]

What game are you referring to?

I don't know if you were referring to this part of his post, but Water contains the primary healing spells in Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2

It also contains non-healing spells

I was referring to the complaints about extending combat to heal up.

[rusty_shackleford]

What game are you referring to?

I don't know if you were referring to this part of his post, but Water contains the primary healing spells in Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2

It also contains non-healing spells

I was referring to the complaints about extending combat to heal up.

I know I've played games where it was optimal to do tactics like this, especially if you couldn't while out of combat for some reason. But k can't think of any names.



Darkest Dungeon, perhaps?

[Norfleet]

I was hoping you had a few examples. I've definitely seen this problem, but usually more in the form of last hit granting XP so you have to stretch out combat to spread XP in the party.

Let's see. Age of Wonders had this, where you could heal in-combat with a fixed number of uses per combat, or sometimes unlimited, but not at ALL out of combat, nor was there a limit in how many combats you could get in besides your ability to move to them...

That Star Traders game let you use abilities to heal yourself, but you couldn't do anything out of combat, so if you had lingering post-combat damage, you were stuck with it until you managed to find another fight...or you dragged the fight purposefully to heal it back.

Pretty much EVERY game that has separate combat vs. noncombat modes behaves like this. If you end the combat prematurely, you cannot keep using your in-combat powers to clean up for the next fight, or collect the battlefield loot, or whatever.

Lasthitting is technically an unrelated issue, more time-consuming: At least with end-of-fight delaying, you're still burning through the enemies as quickly as possible...except the last guy. With lasthitting, you've got to manipulate combat flow throughout the entire fight. It does, however, grate slightly less over time, since at least the behavior makes SOME amount of sense, like a cat dragging a half-dead animal back to the lair so that the kittens can practice finishing it off. The "can completely heal to 100%, but only if you don't end the fight"? That just makes NO SENSE.

If I were going to make a game, I would just make it so any combat power like a heal or buff that can used without any lingering cost in a combat that creates a lingering effect into the next battle will have its effects applied automatically. So if you have a character that can cast a heal every turn without burning strategic resources, then you get a full heal to everyone at the end of the fight, as if you had stood there with the enemy blocked in a corner and just healed up.