Did you miss attributes in Skyrim? How should attributes affect skills, anyways?

[rusty_shackleford]

https://www.pressboxpr.co.uk/news/bruce ... of-fallout

We got rid of attributes in Skyrim and you know who complained? Almost nobody. They hardly even noticed it. I love the whole idea that you do something, you get better at it. That’s now a hallmark of the Elder Scrolls series because you play the character you want to play and you just get better at playing that character.

If you want to change, just start doing other stuff. You don’t have to worry about where you are going to spend your points or how you are going to do this and do that. Just play the game. Lets get the game out of your way. To me, it has always been one of the great things about the progression of the Elder Scrolls titles.

In the elder scrolls games prior to Skyrim, you had attributes, and these attributes affected your skills.
Did you miss attributes in Skyrim?

---

Uniquely, some TES games actually had an inverse relationship: skills increased your attributes!
It has been too long for me to remember properly, so,
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Attributes

Three Attributes of your choice can increase each time you gain a level, with the amount of increase depending on how much you increased the Attributes' governed skills since the last level-up occurred

Skills likewise were limited by attribute caps in Morrowind. And other things I cannot remember. I do remember skills directly increasing your attributes for some reason? Maybe @Tweed can correct me?

Daggerfall was similar(? probably broken considering half the game didn't work lmao)

---

How should attributes affect skills, anyways?

[Tweed]

https://www.pressboxpr.co.uk/news/bruce ... of-fallout

We got rid of attributes in Skyrim and you know who complained? Almost nobody. They hardly even noticed it. I love the whole idea that you do something, you get better at it. That’s now a hallmark of the Elder Scrolls series because you play the character you want to play and you just get better at playing that character.

If you want to change, just start doing other stuff. You don’t have to worry about where you are going to spend your points or how you are going to do this and do that. Just play the game. Lets get the game out of your way. To me, it has always been one of the great things about the progression of the Elder Scrolls titles.

In the elder scrolls games prior to Skyrim, you had attributes, and these attributes affected your skills.
Did you miss attributes in Skyrim?

---

Uniquely, some TES games actually had an inverse relationship: skills increased your attributes!
It has been too long for me to remember properly, so,
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Attributes

Three Attributes of your choice can increase each time you gain a level, with the amount of increase depending on how much you increased the Attributes' governed skills since the last level-up occurred

Skills likewise were limited by attribute caps in Morrowind. And other things I cannot remember. I do remember skills directly increasing your attributes for some reason? Maybe @Tweed can correct me?

Daggerfall was similar(? probably broken considering half the game didn't work lmao)

---

How should attributes affect skills, anyways?

Skills don't directly increase attributes, they give you the opportunity to raise them once you've gained enough skill-ups in tagged skills. After you sleep you can invest those gains into whatever attributes have the potential to be raised. Every two gains in a skill gives one potential attribute raise to a limit of five per level so 10 points in Medium Armor gives you a chance to raise your endurance five points on level up. This is why most powergamers adopted the 5/5/1 (whatever, whatever, and luck) method of leveling up.

The formula for Daggerfall is a little more complex. Your level up rate is determined by class difficulty, which is determined by advantages and disadvantages and after however many skill ups you gain a level when resting, and then you get a randomly rolled number of attribute points to invest in raising whatever attributes you want. So, the best thing to do there is savescum until you get a good roll—if you know you're about to level.

[Tweed]

I think Bethesda and fans both rejoiced at the removal of attributes in Skyrim because it streamlined a system that was inherently flawed from the word go and only got worse in every iteration. Morrowind is ridiculously exploitable once you know how to make money, you can be level twenty before you even start your first quest if you know what to do. Oblivion tried to stop powergaming by putting a limit on the number of times you can train per level, but that just means more grind and in Oblivion you HAVE to level properly or the scaling will rape you. The perks were a nice idea though.

Keep in mind Bethesda had a chance to experiment with SPECIAL since they did Fallout 3 before Skyrim. That's when they realized people love perks more than anything else in the world and ditched attributes. Then they carried it to the logical conclusion of turning everything into perk, which is a ****** idea, but we already know they're trying to make their games as simple as possible so that you can beat the keyboard against your *** and still win.

[wndrbr]

Logical progression chain would look like this:
player does something in the game -> this activity raises a skill through usage -> multiple skillraises affect the associated attribute (whack enough enemies with a large club and you'll get +++ to Strength on your next levelup, etc). This type of progression will sculpt your character in a natural way as you progress through the game, and it's also largely fool-proof since you won't be able to **** yourself over by creating an incorrect character build.

With that being said I personally prefer the DnD / Fallout system where the attributes are set in stone and can only be upgraded by a small amount, and it's the skills that are affected by the attributes, not the other way around. This makes the progression a bit more rigid, which may not be preferable for TES-like open world games where you spend hundred hours doing things, but it's the way to go for more linear games.

[Tweed]

In reality, Skyrim's system is better than Morrowind or Oblivion's, but only because the older systems suck and Skyrim actually allows you to play the game while leveling as opposed to clicking train skill twenty times for a day or swimming into a wall for two years.

[rusty_shackleford]

Funny because there have been mods that greatly improve morrowind/oblivion leveling for years. I think the most used oblivion leveling mod is just a patched version of something from like 2007

[Tweed]

Skill systems that force me to stop playing the game so I can get strong enough to play the game are bad systems.

Let me rephrase that, any system that forces me to stop playing the game in order to progress is a bad system.

[Oyster Sauce]

Buying training in Morrowind is degenerate play. You might as well open the console and use cheats. Level your skills by using them.

[Norfleet]

Buying training in Morrowind is degenerate play. You might as well open the console and use cheats. Level your skills by using them.

By jumping up and down furiously while wedged under some stairs instead? I'm not sure that's less degenerate than buying them from a trainer. This is one of those things of "level your skills by using them": You end up live-playing repetitive training exercises that aren't actually good gameplay.

[J1M]

Do people do this because they feel like they have to? Or is the act of feeling like they are exploiting something the true gameplay?

[Norfleet]

Do people do this because they feel like they have to? Or is the act of feeling like they are exploiting something the true gameplay?

Games are fundamentally about figuring out how to make number go up. This makes number go up. And it does so in as clean a manner as possible, given how fussy Morrowind's levelling system is, where you have to gain exactly 30 points of very specific skills to level up correctly.

[Tweed]

Do people do this because they feel like they have to? Or is the act of feeling like they are exploiting something the true gameplay?

The true goal of every RPG is to crush the system, see the balance driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the developers.

[Norfleet]

The true goal of every RPG is to crush the system, see the balance driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the developers.

EVERY game, really. But that is good. That is good.

[Roguey]

They made the right call. TES should be a casual "don't think about this, no planning or metgaming necessary" play experience.

[maidenhaver]

I'd want Stats to remain static. That's your character's parameters. Skills should never grow stats, unless they can also decrease stats. Storybased stuff, like augments, should be sparing and feel like cheating the system. I'd have preferred a system like Ultima, just stats and no skill, but with skill perks you can learn from trainers or manuals. If there are just skills, the skills should require visiting trainers to change your exp into those feats/perks/milestones. Either you get the trainer access through your Guild, or you read the ingame skill books, to seek out freelance trainers, like in Morrowind. That's what I like, for a classless system, anyway.

[TKVNC]

The issue is, games fail at accounting for game master discretion, and human ingenuity. This results in 'skill checks', the worst of which are visible and genuinely enforce meta-gaming and save scumming.

You were NEVER supposed to see behind the Dungeon Master's screen.

There should be no skill checks per se, just a set of tools you have, and a set of circumstances for you to apply those to.

Skills are good, if they level by play - but they must also decay without use, or you end up with 126 in everything Runescape characters.

Attributes are less good, because your strength and agility can be improved, and you can become wiser. But you can't become more intelligent.

Perhaps it's an issue with implementation.

Skyrim actually had a really nice basic system. Though the level scaling was a mistake.

I realise, I wasn't clear enough. Attributes don't work in the context of increasing skills... Skyrim's Wisdom / Constitution / Stamina system was a nice attempt at a solution.

[Bhaalspawn Jr]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build. So who are the stealthy races? Argonian, Khajiit, and Bosmer. Not interested in the beast races, so I ended up going a Bosmer, but now I'm a midget with a ridiculous voice? C'mon.

Yeah, I could just have gone one of the humans anyway, but it just means more work to develop the skills and attributes that I want to be good at.

They did the right thing when they removed this for Skyrim imo.

[TKVNC]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build. So who are the stealthy races? Argonian, Khajiit, and Bosmer. Not interested in the beast races, so I ended up going a Bosmer, but now I'm a midget with a ridiculous voice? C'mon.

Yeah, I could just have gone one of the humans anyway, but it just means more work to develop the skills and attributes that I want to be good at.

They did the right thing when they removed this for Skyrim imo.

Ironically races are where attribute systems shine. However, they should be set as caps, not minimums. Start people out with a basic spread, and have scope to assign them up to a limit. A high elf should always be capable of higher maximim intelligence than an orc.

[Oyster Sauce]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build. So who are the stealthy races? Argonian, Khajiit, and Bosmer. Not interested in the beast races, so I ended up going a Bosmer, but now I'm a midget with a ridiculous voice? C'mon.

Yeah, I could just have gone one of the humans anyway, but it just means more work to develop the skills and attributes that I want to be good at.

They did the right thing when they removed this for Skyrim imo.

How do you think your playthrough would have gone differently if you were an Imperial or Breton? Is there a boss fight with a DPS check you wouldn't clear? A quest you would have had trouble completing? Did you finish your campaign feeling only just powerful enough as a Bosmer, or did you feel like you were nearly invincible?

[Vaako]

I think oblivion had it best with a perk every 25 skill ups automatical. Actually reaching 100 strength for max carry weight felt at least rewarding. The only problem for min/maxxing was the luck/constitution attributes while luck could be just cut. Constitution could have just added HP retroactively once you reach 100 there, so that you dont have to do the prison stat decrease technique if you wanted more more hp. Or constitution could affect other things like carryweight/poison resistance aswell. Dark Souls like maybe.

While in theory hp/magicka/stamina is enough most of the vanilla enchantments of items were rather unrewarding and not enabling enough different playstyles. You either stack dmg/magic resist where possible or you only stack magic cost reduction if you are a mage. And followers get carryweight. There is no stat in the game which allows you to get a higher attackspeed to make ridiculous 2hand builds for example and they also removed all the reflect effects for magic and physical dmg from oblivion. Which could be nice for turtle builds with restoration. There is a shout who increases attackspeed but that it doesnt work with enchanted weapons makes it pretty much not useful in the long run, maybe in the beginning of the game tho.

But what really annoys me in Skyrim are the few items you can even equipe without additional mods to adress that. Should be able to wear a crown and a hood/dragonmask and at least 4 rings. Even if they have to tune down some enchantments. Thats what I really liked in Dark Souls 3 where they went from 2 rings in DS2 to 4 ring slots in DS3.

[stormvermin]

As @TKVNC said, it's like there are hard attributes and soft attributes. Strength, endurance, willpower, agility, and speed are all things that can be increased through use of skills associated with them, which I'd describe as "soft." Personality less so and intelligence even less than that. Increasing luck is practically asking for divine intervention. If there's that much of a distinction, the entire system probably needs a redesign. Not that Skyrim did it justice.

Thats what I really liked in Dark Souls 3 where they went from 2 rings in DS2 to 4 ring slots in DS3.

DS2 started the four rings trend, not DS3. One of the few things the game did well.

[Vaako]

And luck was pretty much useless like it was. Would make more sense to have it if it affects the procc chance of weapon enchantments or that your soulgems dont empty when you use them for recharging and it could also affect loot drops. But like it was before it could just be cut.

[Vaako]

As @TKVNC said, it's like there are hard attributes and soft attributes. Strength, endurance, willpower, agility, and speed are all things that can be increased through use of skills associated with them, which I'd describe as "soft." Personality less so and intelligence even less than that. Increasing luck is practically asking for divine intervention. If there's that much of a distinction, the entire system probably needs a redesign. Not that Skyrim did it justice.

Thats what I really liked in Dark Souls 3 where they went from 2 rings in DS2 to 4 ring slots in DS3.

DS2 started the four rings trend, not DS3. One of the few things the game did well.

Oh ok then the jump was form DS1 to DS2 then. My bad thanks.

[Bhaalspawn Jr]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build. So who are the stealthy races? Argonian, Khajiit, and Bosmer. Not interested in the beast races, so I ended up going a Bosmer, but now I'm a midget with a ridiculous voice? C'mon.

Yeah, I could just have gone one of the humans anyway, but it just means more work to develop the skills and attributes that I want to be good at.

They did the right thing when they removed this for Skyrim imo.

How do you think your playthrough would have gone differently if you were an Imperial or Breton? Is there a boss fight with a DPS check you wouldn't clear? A quest you would have had trouble completing? Did you finish your campaign feeling only just powerful enough as a Bosmer, or did you feel like you were nearly invincible?

Yeah, I get it. I could have just gone any race and it wouldn't have affected my playstyle that much, but the starting attributes give you an incentive for selecting a particular race. If I want to play as a mage character, I can see that Altmer and Breton have superior intelligence and willpower, not to mention all these bonuses and powers for spells, so naturally I will select one of them for my mage character. I could go a Redguard mage, but now I don't have those abilities, and my starting attributes for spellcasting are weak. It just puts you off wanting to play as that Redguard mage.

[stormvermin]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build. So who are the stealthy races? Argonian, Khajiit, and Bosmer. Not interested in the beast races, so I ended up going a Bosmer, but now I'm a midget with a ridiculous voice? C'mon.

Yeah, I could just have gone one of the humans anyway, but it just means more work to develop the skills and attributes that I want to be good at.

They did the right thing when they removed this for Skyrim imo.

How do you think your playthrough would have gone differently if you were an Imperial or Breton? Is there a boss fight with a DPS check you wouldn't clear? A quest you would have had trouble completing? Did you finish your campaign feeling only just powerful enough as a Bosmer, or did you feel like you were nearly invincible?

Yeah, I get it. I could have just gone any race and it wouldn't have affected my playstyle that much, but the starting attributes give you an incentive for selecting a particular race. If I want to play as a mage character, I can see that Altmer and Breton have superior intelligence and willpower, not to mention all these bonuses and powers for spells, so naturally I will select one of them for my mage character. I could go a Redguard mage, but now I don't have those abilities, and my starting attributes for spellcasting are weak. It just puts you off wanting to play as that Redguard mage.

I kind of think you're overvaluing starting skills/attributes. A race's passives and powers are going to do more heavy lifting than any starting skill allocation, especially in the case of Altmer/Bretons/Redguards. Not enough magicka? Take the mage, the apprentice, or the atronach birthsign. It's really that simple.

[asf]

oh skyrim had actual character numbers to improve? it seemed like just a theme park to go see the dragons while watching endless cutscenes

[rusty_shackleford]

Guess it's strewn across three threads or so now, but there was a discussion regarding where ability scores end and skills begin, ability scores existing, etc., So I'll put it here:
A popular RPG example with only skills and no ability scores is Runescape, also pure learn-by-use outside of quest XP.

I'm not sure I'd say it's any worse for it.

[Bhaalspawn Jr]

How do you think your playthrough would have gone differently if you were an Imperial or Breton? Is there a boss fight with a DPS check you wouldn't clear? A quest you would have had trouble completing? Did you finish your campaign feeling only just powerful enough as a Bosmer, or did you feel like you were nearly invincible?

Yeah, I get it. I could have just gone any race and it wouldn't have affected my playstyle that much, but the starting attributes give you an incentive for selecting a particular race. If I want to play as a mage character, I can see that Altmer and Breton have superior intelligence and willpower, not to mention all these bonuses and powers for spells, so naturally I will select one of them for my mage character. I could go a Redguard mage, but now I don't have those abilities, and my starting attributes for spellcasting are weak. It just puts you off wanting to play as that Redguard mage.

I kind of think you're overvaluing starting skills/attributes. A race's passives and powers are going to do more heavy lifting than any starting skill allocation, especially in the case of Altmer/Bretons/Redguards. Not enough magicka? Take the mage, the apprentice, or the atronach birthsign. It's really that simple.

Maybe. I know I'll definitely be ignoring the starting stats when I finally play Oblivion for the first time and just go an Imperial.

[Norfleet]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build.

The starting stats in Morroblivion are functionally irrelevant because all characters hit the same cap, and low levels in a skill or stat are functionally worthless regardless of their exact value.

[Bhaalspawn Jr]

I don't like the racial starting attributes in Morrowind. Makes it feel like the game is forcing you to play as a specific race that you don't necessarily want to play as. I planned to go all in on stealth skills and go one of the human races (exception Redguard), but they were lacking in agility and speed which were vital for the build.

The starting stats in Morroblivion are functionally irrelevant because all characters hit the same cap, and low levels in a skill or stat are functionally worthless regardless of their exact value.

Aye, but what I'm trying to get at is I'm being 'encouraged' by those stat distributions to play as a race that I don't want to play as. I guess I did fall for it when I picked Bosmer (the Bosmer aren't horrible btw, but I'd prefer to be human).