Pantheon: EA Release

[Xenich]

I haven't kept up with the game much, but I did catch a little discussion from Joppa about how difficult it is to balance "group" mobs at various levels of difficulty. When I was playing, the Devs had stated that at some point they would be balancing the dungeons to deal with the fact that they are "perfect full group" required and they wanted to be able to have numerous mobs of varied group difficulty to simulate how EQ (or similar games) allowed varying groups to explore (ie less than full, imbalanced classes, etc...).

This "may" help reduce the issues I noticed when I played, but ultimately I think it will still create problems in long term play (especially with higher level players having issues with extremely low group based mobs) as some dungeons become less played and the like.

EQ had a good design (earlier design) in that the focus on group balancing dungeons was with the number of mobs, and often the types of abilities they had that created issues for small groups or odd class combos. The difference is, you could still "prep" for a dungeon with less numbers and imperfect classes, you just had to make sure that you had the means to deal with the group (pulling, off target, fear/stun/etc..) and considered a solution for whatever those "special" mobs might have so you could deal with it. There was still a bit of flexibility in that which allowed the odd ball groups to find places they could go.

The hard group design of group mobs will likely be based on damage/mitigation/heal throughput which means you can have "lesser", but still have deal with reaching that mark, which of course still means balanced group design, even if it is fewer in the group.

I think that is the issue they are running into as EQ's design seems like it was a bit easier to work with in that respect.

[Ranselknulf]

Seems they published an update on their direction yesterday.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/spring ... e-overview

Scheduled server wipe for Spring 2026 with the following changes.

• Chevron NPC's removed and difficulties adjusted based on player level vs monster level

• Kill Credit adjustments: First to engage model for regular NPCs and most damage done for Named/Contested NPCs

• Separating out Crafting Skill Level Progression from Adventuring Level (ie, monster xp and crafting xp are now separate, you can be a level 30 crafting skill and level 1 adventure skill

• Player Market and Mail System

• Crafting and Gathering Changes

• Lots of other things but those were the major ones I noticed at first glance

Overall seems like a good update if it all comes through.

I'm going to hold off on playing this further until after the server wipe.

[Xenich]

Seems they published an update on their direction yesterday.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/spring ... e-overview

Scheduled server wipe for Spring 2026 with the following changes.

• Chevron NPC's removed and difficulties adjusted based on player level vs monster level

• Kill Credit adjustments: First to engage model for regular NPCs and most damage done for Named/Contested NPCs

• Separating out Crafting Skill Level Progression from Adventuring Level (ie, monster xp and crafting xp are now separate, you can be a level 30 crafting skill and level 1 adventure skill

• Player Market and Mail System

• Crafting and Gathering Changes

• Lots of other things but those were the major ones I noticed at first glance

Overall seems like a good update if it all comes through.

I'm going to hold off on playing this further until after the server wipe.

Removing the chevron system is a huge improvement for many reasons I already stated, so I am actually encouraged by this. It was as I said the biggest issue I had. The rest of the issues can be easily tuned with "specific" server rule sets if they are able to implement it eventually (ie mainstream features).

That would leave my biggest issue now simply being downtime being too short and fights being too fast, but... my experience is only up to around 20, so it would be ignorant of me to make any judgements on that until I have seen how things play out over the entire level spectrum. Also, the rebalancing of mobs vs player level from the chevron change may eventually iron this out. Even if this doesn't change, I can live with it, it isn't a deal breaker, it just makes the game lean more to WoW style fast combat vs old EQ style, which I am sure most of the modern audience would prefer anyway.

At the end of the day, the game isn't bad at all. It has a lot of interesting features to the classes and play and the world has a nice open feel to it with the ability to climb and go many places outside of traditional corridor designs.

If they can complete the content and get things settled, I can see this being a game that over time would build a solid community. It certainly has the potential to provide that EQ level of feel and exploration in play, especially when they get enough content to provide that massive world feel that EQ had.

Heck, if M&M does well also, I might actually have an issue deciding what I want to play and I haven't had that level of decision conundrum in decades as it concerns MMOs. It is promising for sure.

[Xenich]

Well, it seems major changes are coming for the game. I find it rather interesting because a lot of the stuff I complained about is actually being attended to as it concerns group dynamics and play.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... ?l=english

This part was interesting:

The time has come to put our core combat systems into their final, launch-ready shape so we can begin polishing and refining the details. Here are some highlights:

Instead of “solo” vs. “chevron” (group) NPCs, we will be unifying all NPCs to a singular NPC difficulty type, excluding Named/Rare (slightly more challenging than normal NPCs), Major Boss and Multi-Group Boss NPCs. The difficulty of a normal NPC after this change will be based heavily on its level compared to the player. When we want to further increase the challenge of a specific area, be it within a dungeon or a pocket of the overworld, we will rely on a combination of NPC density, synergy between different NPC types, and the environment itself.

The above change will create a more natural transition between soloing and grouping. With more players able to engage in more content, groups of all sizes will be able to form more naturally in proximity to the content.

Time-to-kill (TTK) for most NPCs will be increasing. Instead of the current, often rapid rate of mowing down NPCS, combat will have a greater focus on sustainability, resource management and time for each player to utilize more of their toolkit. In addition, experience gains will be adjusted to smooth out the leveling curve at low-mid to mid-levels and grant more experience per kill to match the increased TTK.

We will be transitioning to a “first to engage” model for kill credit to better handle situations where multiple players or groups are fighting NPCs in the same area. *Note: we still plan for certain world bosses and special encounters to use the “most damage done” model for kill credit, specifically when we want direct competition to be part of the experience.

It is a rather big change to the game compared to its old implementation and honestly, I think it will greatly improve play. I like how they focus now more on endurance based fighting rather than the typical DPS fest concept of play which often invalidates all the effort put into mob design features.

It really is a very positive change to the game.

[Rienen]

I appreciate their continued work on the game, albeit at a glacial pace. Still, I have some concerns regarding their comments on "longer TTK", "sustainability", "resource management", and "wanting players to utilize more of their toolkit". Most classes I played were already easily resource-starved after just a few mobs, just using basic abilities. Which, while in a group, you can get by backing off and sitting while being carried, but solo... you're kinda screwed. Longer TTK in addition to the already long wait times between fights? I feel like I have to be reading that wrong.

That said, I'm curious to see how things shake out.

[Xenich]

I appreciate their continued work on the game, albeit at a glacial pace. Still, I have some concerns regarding their comments on "longer TTK", "sustainability", "resource management", and "wanting players to utilize more of their toolkit". Most classes I played were already easily resource-starved after just a few mobs, just using basic abilities. Which, while in a group, you can get by backing off and sitting while being carried, but solo... you're kinda screwed. Longer TTK in addition to the already long wait times between fights? I feel like I have to be reading that wrong.

That said, I'm curious to see how things shake out.

The changes seem to be across everything though, hence the character wipes coming up in this spring. So I would imagine things would balance out as mobs, classes, skills, etc... change to fit this format. Fights should get longer, but then damage output and healing requirements will scale down to this pace. So instead of everything being entirely focused on withstanding a single mobs brutal attacks in fast pace, it will be more on dealing with breaking up the groups of mobs (they said that mob density will become more of the focus in terms of dealing with group content, not singular mob power... that is unless otherwise specified).

I am just guessing, but based on what I read, I think it will be more like original EQ where mobs don't die quickly, but at the same time they don't speed kill you either (unless they are above your level, or maybe are specialized, ie a wizard mob having very high damage, but slow casting spells). This will allow more flexibility with group numbers and makeups. The increased fight times will also mean longer spawn cycles likely, which will slow down dungeon crawls, create a means for more time management in both fights and down time which is in and of itself a "skill" in play (which to be honest is pretty much missing in modern MMOs). Good players in EQ could break and manage rooms by being more efficient in their spell, skill, and tactics.

We will see how they handle it, but honestly this is a good thing IMO, but I can understand some people who prefer fast fights might dislike the downtime that may be associated with this type of design. The good news is that this is really just a skill thing. In EQ for instance, a good group who really learned their classes and managed their resources well could essentially pull non-stop and the game would feel like it fast paced.

One question though... when you say "long wait times", what do you mean? I haven't played in quite a while and only made it up to level 20 with several characters, did down time increase or is it much higher at the upper levels? It used to only be 1-2 minutes (I think 3 mins max to med from nothing to max) downtime and most classes had features that allowed you to decrease that. I always felt that was way too fast and that type of cycle made mob spawn cycles too quick and impractical for meaningful dungeon crawl progression and camps.

[Rienen]

One question though... when you say "long wait times", what do you mean? I haven't played in quite a while and only made it up to level 20 with several characters, did down time increase or is it much higher at the upper levels? It used to only be 1-2 minutes (I think 3 mins max to med from nothing to max) downtime and most classes had features that allowed you to decrease that. I always felt that was way too fast and that type of cycle made mob spawn cycles too quick and impractical for meaningful dungeon crawl progression and camps.

I think its a personal taste. I went into the game knowing there'd be some additional downtime in between mobs, but I wasn't prepared for, like you said, the potential 120+ seconds of waiting between individual mobs, while soloing. Pet classes made things easier, but it was a system shock going from any post-2010 MMO back to this type of game. Grouping is/was easier, at least in a sense that the group could still progress when someone was hanging back but, even then, it still felt like I was either purposefully holding back on using abilities to save resources (raising the TTK) or waiting back while others fought (rising the TTK).

All that said, I'm fully aware the problem is 100% me and the fact that, as much as I like the idea of the game, in practice I'm just not patient enough for it.

[Xenich]

One question though... when you say "long wait times", what do you mean? I haven't played in quite a while and only made it up to level 20 with several characters, did down time increase or is it much higher at the upper levels? It used to only be 1-2 minutes (I think 3 mins max to med from nothing to max) downtime and most classes had features that allowed you to decrease that. I always felt that was way too fast and that type of cycle made mob spawn cycles too quick and impractical for meaningful dungeon crawl progression and camps.

I think its a personal taste. I went into the game knowing there'd be some additional downtime in between mobs, but I wasn't prepared for, like you said, the potential 120+ seconds of waiting between individual mobs, while soloing. Pet classes made things easier, but it was a system shock going from any post-2010 MMO back to this type of game. Grouping is/was easier, at least in a sense that the group could still progress when someone was hanging back but, even then, it still felt like I was either purposefully holding back on using abilities to save resources (raising the TTK) or waiting back while others fought (rising the TTK).

All that said, I'm fully aware the problem is 100% me and the fact that, as much as I like the idea of the game, in practice I'm just not patient enough for it.

No, that is fair, I understand. At least you recognize the style of play. While I prefer more traditional EQ downtime style in MMOs, I can understand the appeal of the more non-stop action focused play people like with modern MMOs. It is a difficult concept to convey to some people, they just don't get it and see the "no doing anything" as pointless and wasteful rather than viewing it as a serious condition and consequence in play management. The thing is, it drastically changes game play management. In fast pace games, certain spells, class and group designs become key, but if you slow the game down where "burn down" is no longer a practical approach, it completely changes what is useful and as it concerned EQ, many spells/skills that were thought useless became invaluable to play.

I wonder if they still plan to focus on server rule sets, it was one of the advantages that their initial design had with Pantheon, but I am unsure if there will be large enough of a player base to allow it. They are going to have a bit of a hard time pulling back the initial crowd that supported them I think due to the "attention" to mainstream they had at the start of their release and with M&M taking a lot of those people.

Who knows, maybe they will do what I suggested to Brad years ago... which was to eventually sell the game in Server/Client packages so people could run and manage their own servers.

[Xenich]

Quick question for anyone who has played and is willing to play...

When the Spring patch hits and they do wipes, any of you interested in playing at that time? Would be nice to start a RPGHQ guild and see how things progress with the new changes. It would be fun to play with our group rather than trying to do it with random people. From what I understand, that patch will be the "completion" of what classes will be at their launch, so it will be a good time to really see if the game is going to meet any expectations you might have concerning that.

Maybe we could coordinate and work out some class makeups so we could group play through the game a bit to see how it will go?

@Kalarion Did you ever pick it up? How about you @rusty_shackleford , I know you picked it up, and @Tweed did you ever pick it up? I can't remember?

[Tweed]

I lost all interest in this after Brad died and I saw what they were doing to the game.

[Xenich]

I lost all interest in this after Brad died and I saw what they were doing to the game.

I get that, and pretty much agree (I purchased my copy back before Brad died with the backer system). If you had not picked it up, I would not ask you to. I just think their recent changes might be... well... positive. We will see though.

[Finarfin]

Not exactly a fan of a MMORPG that has no map at all.

[Oyster Sauce]

Not exactly a fan of a MMORPG that has no map at all.

Still waiting for an MMO to make a better map than WoW's from 30 years ago (among several other features that remain uncontested by a wide margin in WoW's favor). FFXIV's is borderline unusable.

[Xenich]

Not exactly a fan of a MMORPG that has no map at all.

What does a map provide though if not to give you what you could find out for yourself in play?

[Kalarion]

Quick question for anyone who has played and is willing to play...

When the Spring patch hits and they do wipes, any of you interested in playing at that time? Would be nice to start a RPGHQ guild and see how things progress with the new changes. It would be fun to play with our group rather than trying to do it with random people. From what I understand, that patch will be the "completion" of what classes will be at their launch, so it will be a good time to really see if the game is going to meet any expectations you might have concerning that.

Maybe we could coordinate and work out some class makeups so we could group play through the game a bit to see how it will go?

@Kalarion Did you ever pick it up? How about you @rusty_shackleford , I know you picked it up, and @Tweed did you ever pick it up? I can't remember?

I'd love to give it a go! I'd prefer to be a support or pet class, but I don't mind being whatever is needed for our group.

Not exactly a fan of a MMORPG that has no map at all.

What does a map provide though if not to give you what you could find out for yourself in play?

Not getting lost for literal in-game days in the Freeport slums or (God forbid) the Qeynos Aqueducts or Kedge Keep or Velk's or Seb or or or...

It would be cool if there was a system where you have an automapper that improved with a cartography skill though. Something like Eschalon.

[rusty_shackleford]

is there a beastlord class?

[rusty_shackleford]

It would be cool if there was a system where you have an automapper that improved with a cartography skill though.

this is just project gorgon

[Xenich]

Quick question for anyone who has played and is willing to play...

When the Spring patch hits and they do wipes, any of you interested in playing at that time? Would be nice to start a RPGHQ guild and see how things progress with the new changes. It would be fun to play with our group rather than trying to do it with random people. From what I understand, that patch will be the "completion" of what classes will be at their launch, so it will be a good time to really see if the game is going to meet any expectations you might have concerning that.

Maybe we could coordinate and work out some class makeups so we could group play through the game a bit to see how it will go?

@Kalarion Did you ever pick it up? How about you @rusty_shackleford , I know you picked it up, and @Tweed did you ever pick it up? I can't remember?

I'd love to give it a go! I'd prefer to be a support or pet class, but I don't mind being whatever is needed for our group.

Not exactly a fan of a MMORPG that has no map at all.

What does a map provide though if not to give you what you could find out for yourself in play?

Not getting lost for literal in-game days in the Freeport slums or (God forbid) the Qeynos Aqueducts or Kedge Keep or Velk's or Seb or or or...

It would be cool if there was a system where you have an automapper that improved with a cartography skill though. Something like Eschalon.

Sounds good, when it drops I will see if we can get something setup. I am good for anything to be honest, I don't mind the focus or class, I played most of them.

But getting lost in those areas was EPIC in experience. I remember a lot of hardship as a Qeynos monk learning those, but once I did... oh man... I was a god among men! That is an experience I wouldn't trade for anything, it is one of my most frustrating and fondest memories of EQ.

[Xenich]

is there a beastlord class?

Nope, pet classes that I know of (outdated info mind you) is Necro, Summoner, and Shaman at a certain point (20+). Dire lords eventually get pets as well, but aren't the standard and there are several classes that have variations of "pet" type spells/abilities that are limited in function and focus. I haven't played since the Druid, so I don't know if they get a pet or not, but I don't think there is anything as you are thinking akin to a "Beastlord" from EQ.

[rusty_shackleford]

is there a beastlord class?

Nope, pet classes that I know of (outdated info mind you) is Necro, Summoner, and Shaman at a certain point (20+). Dire lords eventually get pets as well, but aren't the standard and there are several classes that have variations of "pet" type spells/abilities that are limited in function and focus. I haven't played since the Druid, so I don't know if they get a pet or not, but I don't think there is anything as you are thinking akin to a "Beastlord" from EQ.

game is ruined, just shut it down

[Xenich]

is there a beastlord class?

Nope, pet classes that I know of (outdated info mind you) is Necro, Summoner, and Shaman at a certain point (20+). Dire lords eventually get pets as well, but aren't the standard and there are several classes that have variations of "pet" type spells/abilities that are limited in function and focus. I haven't played since the Druid, so I don't know if they get a pet or not, but I don't think there is anything as you are thinking akin to a "Beastlord" from EQ.

game is ruined, just shut it down

Play a summoner, pets are pretty cool and they have some very cool abilities. I don't think you played high enough to realize how cool they are (they get multiple pets at one point).

[rusty_shackleford]

Nope, pet classes that I know of (outdated info mind you) is Necro, Summoner, and Shaman at a certain point (20+). Dire lords eventually get pets as well, but aren't the standard and there are several classes that have variations of "pet" type spells/abilities that are limited in function and focus. I haven't played since the Druid, so I don't know if they get a pet or not, but I don't think there is anything as you are thinking akin to a "Beastlord" from EQ.

game is ruined, just shut it down

Play a mage, pets are pretty cool and they have some very cool abilities. I don't think you played high enough to realize how cool they are (they get multiple pets at one point).

It's not the same.

[Xenich]

game is ruined, just shut it down

Play a mage, pets are pretty cool and they have some very cool abilities. I don't think you played high enough to realize how cool they are (they get multiple pets at one point).

It's not the same.

Ok, well.. I haven't checked but I think Enchanter was eventually supposed to get their charm spell at one point, so maybe that will do? It was "supposed" to be pretty **** cool how it worked, but like I said... I haven't kept up.

[rusty_shackleford]

Play a mage, pets are pretty cool and they have some very cool abilities. I don't think you played high enough to realize how cool they are (they get multiple pets at one point).

It's not the same.

Ok, well.. I haven't checked but I think Enchanter was eventually supposed to get their charm spell at one point, so maybe that will do? It was "supposed" to be pretty **** cool how it worked, but like I said... I haven't kept up.

Those are gay wizards

[Xenich]

It's not the same.

Ok, well.. I haven't checked but I think Enchanter was eventually supposed to get their charm spell at one point, so maybe that will do? It was "supposed" to be pretty **** cool how it worked, but like I said... I haven't kept up.

Those are gay wizards

Ok... hmm... best I can do is to have @Kalarion play a midget halfling that you order around.

[Kalarion]

Ok, well.. I haven't checked but I think Enchanter was eventually supposed to get their charm spell at one point, so maybe that will do? It was "supposed" to be pretty **** cool how it worked, but like I said... I haven't kept up.

The point of beastlord is not that it's a pet class per se, it's that it's a class that gets a giant kitty that is your boon companion and rips your enemies to shreds.

[Xenich]

Ok, well.. I haven't checked but I think Enchanter was eventually supposed to get their charm spell at one point, so maybe that will do? It was "supposed" to be pretty **** cool how it worked, but like I said... I haven't kept up.

The point of beastlord is not that it's a pet class per se, it's that it's a class that gets a giant kitty that is your boon companion and rips your enemies to shreds.

Hmm... it has been too long to know if anything has adjusted to fit that. Does the druid have beast taming? It may... Not sure though, never looked into it.

[Xenich]

Ok, so word is... March 4th will be the new patch and wipe. If this were to occur, who wants to form a guild and give it a go?

Apparently, a ton of changes are coming to professions, mastery skills (never implemented as of yet that I know and will greatly effect class tuning and direction), as well as a ton of other things, specifically the NPC changes that will be more akin to EQ like. That is, no more chevron vs single mobs, etc... (other than specific named or the like that are tuned for such). Difficulty in encounter will be based on mob density pack (ie like EQ) where controlling the number of mobs through pulling, splitting, locking down, etc.... will be important. This will allow smaller groups, and less "ideal" makeups to use creative means to approach content, and that means yes... you will now be able to work into the areas and dungeons that were once "group only" if you are skilled, careful, and use cleverness (ie EQ style).

I would be interested in getting several of us together who own the game already, or are interested (willing to pick it up) and forming a guild when this happens to see how the game will unfold.

So... if interested, give a post so I can keep track and when the time gets closer we can coordinate a server and get things setup. If you are interested, go ahead and look up the classes and give an idea as to what you want to play. Play what you like, don't worry about "filling a role" as a responsibility, we will work it out as it comes and honestly... I would rather people play what they like and then we use that as a means to see what we can do against the content.

As for my class, no idea... I have played most of them and I really don't care what I play so I will likely fill anything I think might be useful once everyone has picked what they like.

If you have any questions on "what" to play, I "may" be able to help, but I haven't played in a while, so if major changes have been made, consider that.

[Kalarion]

I'm in.

[Classix]

I've known about this for a good while now, I'm willing to try it if I can. Brother will join me on anything, he'd probably go Cleric/Healer. When we secure a place together this and/or M&M may be our go to thing just for something to do to try out. Can't promise anything, but I'm sure at some point he and I will try it at least once. You already know what I'm going to go:

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