When does QoL go too far?

[rusty_shackleford]

I've noticed some games have a buy-back feature from shops which seems acceptable(aside from my usual grumbling about shops), but I know of a couple games that allow you to buy back any item ever sold(or perhaps just items of certain qualities, etc.,) which seems like it goes from quality of life feature to immersion breaking

Anyways, this isn't specifically about being able to buy back items but when QoL is taken too far. Can you think of any other examples?

[TKVNC]

I've noticed some games have a buy-back feature from shops which seems acceptable(aside from my usual grumbling about shops), but I know of a couple games that allow you to buy back any item ever sold(or perhaps just items of certain qualities, etc.,) which seems like it goes from quality of life feature to immersion breaking

Anyways, this isn't specifically about being able to buy back items but when QoL is taken too far. Can you think of any other examples?

Fast travel.

When it's Morrowind style, with guild or temple teleports, boats or striders, or mark and recall, it's fine -- this adds to immersion as it shows how the world might function logistically.

When you can fast travel to specific points on the map however, it's gone too far.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I would argue that certain QoLs can be indicative that they are a bandaid for fundamental design flaws with a game.

For example, fast travel. You made a very big world and you are making the player travel back and forth across it multiple times, and it is not an enjoyable or worthwhile use of the customer's limited free time. So you add fast travel so they can get to the relevant content they want to engage with in a timely manner. The fast travel QoL is a symptom of a design flaw, not the issue itself.

Autobattle. You made a game with far too many random encounters that the customer has no longer deemed it a worthwhile use of their time to manually fight every battle. The autobattle QoL is a symptom of a root design flaw, not the issue itself.

Same with a lot of things like quest objective compasses, or as we had a thread about last year, respeccing.

As for the buyback feature in the OP, it sounds like certain items should not be able to be sold in the first place to prevent frustration like this and a QoL being needed.

[Acrux]

Pillars of Eternity style shared inventory that can be accessed anywhere/any time.

[J1M]

When the game assigns you friends to play with (WoW Dungeon Finder).

[rusty_shackleford]

Pillars of Eternity style shared inventory that can be accessed anywhere/any time.

I liked the shared inventory. I would agree if you meant because it's limitless.
Did not do enough with personal inventories tho. Enjoyed consumable slots and weapon swaps.

[Rand]

When you can fast travel to specific points on the map however, it's gone too far.

Console gaming trope begun in the Playstation/Xbox era for normies.

[rusty_shackleford]

When you can fast travel to specific points on the map however, it's gone too far.

Console gaming trope begun in the Playstation/Xbox era for normies.

daggerfall

[Rand]

You made a very big world and you are making the player travel back and forth across it multiple times, and it is not an enjoyable or worthwhile use of the customer's limited free time. So you add fast travel so they can get to the relevant content they want to engage with in a timely manner. Tje fast travel QoL is a symptom of a design flaw, not the issue itself.

Then why not make fast travel diegetic?
Teleportation via the local mage's guild? Coach services? Anything except opening a map and clicking "take me to the quest target/shop to sell loot"?

I called that this would become a problem back when Oblivion released with this ******** designed specifically for the Xbox *******.

[Rand]

When you can fast travel to specific points on the map however, it's gone too far.

Console gaming trope begun in the Playstation/Xbox era for normies.

Daggerfall

Then also Arena.

The stupid games were designed around the mechanic because you're crossing a continent, or a province of one, and while you CAN travel in real time, it takes like a literal real-world day+ to cross the area of Daggerfall.

At least they had you buy horses and ships to make it faster and safer (not that it ever mattered much)

[rusty_shackleford]

Console gaming trope begun in the Playstation/Xbox era for normies.

Daggerfall

Then also Arena.

The stupid games were designed around the mechanic because you're crossing a continent, or a province of one, and while you CAN travel in real time, it takes like a literal real-world day+ to cross the area of Daggerfall.

At least they had you buy horses and ships to make it faster and safer (not that it ever mattered much)

DOSboomers are the reason we have bad things, stop trying to blame young people

[Rand]

DOSboomers are the reason we have bad things, stop trying to blame young people

"DOSboomers" are the reason you have anything.
The Xbox is a blight on gaming.

[Acrux]

Pillars of Eternity style shared inventory that can be accessed anywhere/any time.

I liked the shared inventory. I would agree if you meant because it's limitless.
Did not do enough with personal inventories tho. Enjoyed consumable slots and weapon swaps.

Yeah, it's the combination of limitless and available at all times. It just encourages hoarding every piece of crap you come across.

[rusty_shackleford]

Pillars of Eternity style shared inventory that can be accessed anywhere/any time.

I liked the shared inventory. I would agree if you meant because it's limitless.
Did not do enough with personal inventories tho. Enjoyed consumable slots and weapon swaps.

Yeah, it's the combination of limitless and available at all times. It just encourages hoarding every piece of crap you come across.

I do not enjoy digging thru multiple party member inventories to find a specific item.
I suspect this may be alleviated with a sufficiently good UI where you can effectively browse all inventories as if a single one

[Demonic Fate]

Pillars of Eternity style shared inventory that can be accessed anywhere/any time.

So many games half-*** inventories, it's frustrating because it's such an unforced error.

They start from a vaguely simulationist design - every PC has a Strength-based weight limit and a volume limit - and then realize that it sucks *** to play and slap on a bunch of QoL to paper it over. Shared inventory, "send to camp", swapping armour in under 6 seconds, magic bags of holding, or just making carry weights so ridiculously high they don't matter (yes, I'm sure your low-STR high-DEX rogue can sneak and swashbuckle just fine while carrying 60lbs of gear). All of that is the result of never thinking about inventory at all as part of the game's overall design, and just going with "it's how inventories are done".

Here are two approaches I'm totally fine with, if they fit the game's vibe and playstyle:

- Arcade approach. Don't bother with individual inventories and almost not with physical objects at all. Instead, you collect various type of abstract powerups (gems, spells, nanochips, whatever) and you can equip or use them at appropriate gameplay-based spots. Maybe at any time, maybe only at camp - pick whatever makes gameplay most interesting, and then come up with an in-universe handwavy justification. I think many traditional JRPGs do this (Expedition 33 does, for example), and so did Mass Effect iirc.

- Hardcore approach. Your inventory management matters, and if you make it important and interesting enough you'll find that you won't need many "QoL" features at all. Carrying capacity and item access are strongly restricted, so that during a battle you only have access to a very limited subset of items chosen in advance, and your item loadout is a significant part of pre-battle planning. XCOM is a good example here.

Note that hardcore doesn't HAVE to equal simulationist - you can have a caravan/shuttle/magic portal that abstracts away stuff that you own but aren't carrying. Pixel Dungeon is hardcore despite letting you carry up to like 20 suits of plate (because slots are tight enough that you'll have to choose between spending on inventory upgrades, or leave **** on the floor), while The Witcher 1 is arcade but still feels simulationist (you're not carrying any heavy items, just a satchel with vials and herbs, but that satchel is generously sized).

[rusty_shackleford]

this with a more granular grid size is good enough for me

[Acrux]

Then why not make fast travel diegetic?

That would be one good solution.

I think some of fast travel's problem stems from the idea that in real life, people don't have to do everything themselves. You can delegate things to subordinates ("go to the next town over and sell the things we picked up on our last run", "you go with him and stop by the blacksmith to have him sharpen our weapons", "). You could even send a group to explore a dungeon for you while you tackle a different one.

There's also the issue (I'm not sure if it's a problem, per se) that quest design often means you have to backtrack across several places on the map. If I was in a situation where I had to go to Town A -> Town B -> Town A -> Town C -> Town B -> Town A to get something done, I'm going to either decide not to do that, find someone in that town who can help me, or try to streamline some of those steps out.

[rusty_shackleford]

"go to the next town over and sell the things we picked up on our last run",

I love when games let me use companions for stuff like this
the ghostfu that follows you in the van helsing games(pretty good) can run to town for you, think she can also restock supplies

[Xenich]

Mini-map/Map location points.

Was playing Dying Light 1 and noticed there is a marker for everything the player is supposed to go to/do/etc... Pretty much standard console slop design to have "Follow the bouncing ball" for everything. Thing is, this works against basic game play a lot of the time. That is, in a game where exploration is a component of play, and in the case of DL, picking up random components, happening across various trigger vents, etc... having everything mapped out with a bouncy ball is counter to natural and evolved play.

Granted, in such games you need good directions so the player can find the location through a journal, hints, or whatever... but... this process is the bread and butter of exploration play and the mini-map/"go here and do this" concept is murder on natural evolving play and why a lot of these games turn into mind numbing "task running" because people essentially just "follow the bouncing ball" like dumb animals to their next objective.

As opposed to have to think, consider, reason, pay attention to details, etc... to figure things out. What's that? I am supposed to go to my room 194 in the complex? Where might that be? Oh... did I look at the walls in the building that pointed out what floor I am on? What about the rooms I walked by, did I pay attention to that? Oh Noes!!!!!! what to do!

It is a simple thing, subtle and honestly... mundane in its design principal, but having people have to think about logistics in play is a great tool to slow the player, develop content exploration naturally, and increase a more natural feel of play in the game.

Or not... here is your bouncy ball idiot... chase it... bored yet?

[Stack of Turtles]

The issue with both fast travel and map markers is ultimately the same: Some people just don't like exploration gameplay, and they insist on playing the same games as people who do (and being accommodated in them) instead of sticking to rail shooters or Mortal Kombat like they deserve. They just want a dopamine fix. This is why you hear people say "I don't have time to walk around looking at the scenery, I only get an hour of free time away from my soul-crushing job, I just want to hurry up and GET TO THE GAME" — because to them, the game is the part where they get to click on the same five buttons in the same fixed order until the bad pictures are off the screen. I don't think you can help these people, we should just euthanize them.

[Cedric]

I usually think about this topic when the subject of runbacks come up. Sometimes in a Souls game, or other type game, you need to go quite a distance to make it back to a boss. Often it's not even a trivial. The Last Judge runback in Silksong is quite taxing until you work out the best approach, to say nothing of Groal.

Now some people say these are a waste of your time. Some people say they're a part of the game, part of the punishment for dying, or an encouragement to practice on the way.

I'm very conflicted. I have never minded them. At the same time, I've never really missed them in games that didn't have them. So maybe they're not worth having? Then again, when you lose your lives on a Bullet Hell SHMUP you have to play every stage and every boss leading up to the part you died again - and that's an integral part of these games and mastering these earlier stages is an important and fun part of these games.

I guess all I can say is that if you do have QoL features it's always nice if they're justified somehow in the game or lore in a way that doesn't feel contrived.

[stormvermin]

"go to the next town over and sell the things we picked up on our last run",

I love when games let me use companions for stuff like this
the ghostfu that follows you in the van helsing games(pretty good) can run to town for you, think she can also restock supplies

Criminally underrated game. Multiplayer was a blast as well. Shame the servers are dead.

I usually think about this topic when the subject of runbacks come up. Sometimes in a Souls game, or other type game, you need to go quite a distance to make it back to a boss. Often it's not even a trivial. The Last Judge runback in Silksong is quite taxing until you work out the best approach, to say nothing of Groal.

Now some people say these are a waste of your time. Some people say they're a part of the game, part of the punishment for dying, or an encouragement to practice on the way.

I'm very conflicted. I have never minded them. At the same time, I've never really missed them in games that didn't have them. So maybe they're not worth having? Then again, when you lose your lives on a Bullet Hell SHMUP you have to play every stage and every boss leading up to the part you died again - and that's an integral part of these games and mastering these earlier stages is an important and fun part of these games.

I guess all I can say is that if you do have QoL features it's always nice if they're justified somehow in the game or lore in a way that doesn't feel contrived.

Depends on the game but I like runbacks when the area facilitates it. In Demon's at least, I always felt the runback was a core part of the game. The areas themselves in Demon's and DS1 being cool was just an added bonus. The bosses themselves weren't the full extent of the challenge, it was arriving in good enough shape to take on the boss. It was still mostly true in DS1 but almost completely gone by DS2. DS1 made up for the difference my limiting which bonfires were warp points which also had the benefit of making the world feel larger than it was.

[methoxetamine]

If it's added to a remake or update of a game I already played without the QOL then I'm going to talk **** about it and call anyone who likes it a casual. If it's already in the game when I played it for the first time then it's gigabased.

[Tweed]

"go to the next town over and sell the things we picked up on our last run",

I love when games let me use companions for stuff like this
the ghostfu that follows you in the van helsing games(pretty good) can run to town for you, think she can also restock supplies

I think that kind of stuff started with Torchlight, or maybe Fate, I dunno, I didn't play Fate.

[Havitner]

Modern WoW's Dungeon Finder system.

Players may teleport in and out of the dungeon at any time if they are not in combat. They will always appear at the beginning of the dungeon upon returning. However, players who join as replacements for a dungeon in progress will appear at the location of the players already inside.

'Oh no, one of the party members had to leave halfway through the dungeon? Well, I guess I'll just press this button then and the game will automatically find a replacement and then instantly teleport that replacement straight into the heart of the Ancient Sunken Lost City of the Titans so that we can get back to the pewpewpew without delay.'

I get that having to find a replacement manually and wait for him to travel to the instance is a pain, but the auto-LFG insta-teleport no-delay no-setbacks-ever ultra-smooth-exlax 'solution' is just example #384 of the arcadeification of WoW.

[rusty_shackleford]

Modern WoW's Dungeon Finder system.

Players may teleport in and out of the dungeon at any time if they are not in combat. They will always appear at the beginning of the dungeon upon returning. However, players who join as replacements for a dungeon in progress will appear at the location of the players already inside.

'Oh no, one of the party members had to leave halfway through the dungeon? Well, I guess I'll just press this button then and the game will automatically find a replacement and then instantly teleport that replacement straight into the heart of the Ancient Sunken Lost City of the Titans so that we can get back to the pewpewpew without delay.'

I get that having to find a replacement manually and wait for him to travel to the instance is a pain, but the auto-LFG insta-teleport no-delay no-setbacks-ever ultra-smooth-exlax 'solution' is just example #384 of the arcadeification of WoW.

Complete divorce of how the game plays & the game world.

quick off-hand proposal:
dungeon finder is a gnomish invention that links you to alternate realities, you wear a special device when you're in a dungeon, people from other realities can fade out and sometimes are replaced with someone of similar skills due to (incomprehensible technobabble)

5 seconds of time on my sleep addled brain, they don't even care

[logincrash]

Mini-map/Map location points.

Was playing Dying Light 1 and noticed there is a marker for everything the player is supposed to go to/do/etc... Pretty much standard console slop design to have "Follow the bouncing ball" for everything. Thing is, this works against basic game play a lot of the time. That is, in a game where exploration is a component of play, and in the case of DL, picking up random components, happening across various trigger vents, etc... having everything mapped out with a bouncy ball is counter to natural and evolved play.

Granted, in such games you need good directions so the player can find the location through a journal, hints, or whatever... but... this process is the bread and butter of exploration play and the mini-map/"go here and do this" concept is murder on natural evolving play and why a lot of these games turn into mind numbing "task running" because people essentially just "follow the bouncing ball" like dumb animals to their next objective.

As opposed to have to think, consider, reason, pay attention to details, etc... to figure things out. What's that? I am supposed to go to my room 194 in the complex? Where might that be? Oh... did I look at the walls in the building that pointed out what floor I am on? What about the rooms I walked by, did I pay attention to that? Oh Noes!!!!!! what to do!

It is a simple thing, subtle and honestly... mundane in its design principal, but having people have to think about logistics in play is a great tool to slow the player, develop content exploration naturally, and increase a more natural feel of play in the game.

Or not... here is your bouncy ball idiot... chase it... bored yet?

I remember playing Witcher 3 and having to turn off the mini-map because that's literally the only thing I would stare at when doing investigation quests. I would turn on the detective vision or whatever it was called and then follow the dotted line on the map.
As soon as I turned off the mini-map, I started to actually explore the surroundings. Made for a much more pleasant experience.

[Manny V]

Modern WoW's Dungeon Finder system.

Players may teleport in and out of the dungeon at any time if they are not in combat. They will always appear at the beginning of the dungeon upon returning. However, players who join as replacements for a dungeon in progress will appear at the location of the players already inside.

'Oh no, one of the party members had to leave halfway through the dungeon? Well, I guess I'll just press this button then and the game will automatically find a replacement and then instantly teleport that replacement straight into the heart of the Ancient Sunken Lost City of the Titans so that we can get back to the pewpewpew without delay.'

I get that having to find a replacement manually and wait for him to travel to the instance is a pain, but the auto-LFG insta-teleport no-delay no-setbacks-ever ultra-smooth-exlax 'solution' is just example #384 of the arcadeification of WoW.

Complete divorce of how the game plays & the game world.

quick off-hand proposal:
dungeon finder is a gnomish invention that links you to alternate realities, you wear a special device when you're in a dungeon, people from other realities can fade out and sometimes are replaced with someone of similar skills due to (incomprehensible technobabble)

5 seconds of time on my sleep addled brain, they don't even care

nah **** gnomes

[Finarfin]

Pillars of Eternity style shared inventory that can be accessed anywhere/any time.

I liked the shared inventory. I would agree if you meant because it's limitless.
Did not do enough with personal inventories tho. Enjoyed consumable slots and weapon swaps.

Yeah, it's the combination of limitless and available at all times. It just encourages hoarding every piece of crap you come across.

Nah, hoarding everything is good actually. Look at Gothic. Glorious unlimited carry weight so I can take everything with me, be it a cup or a dozen two hand swords

[Demonic Fate]

Mini-map/Map location points.

Was playing Dying Light 1 and noticed there is a marker for everything the player is supposed to go to/do/etc... Pretty much standard console slop design to have "Follow the bouncing ball" for everything. Thing is, this works against basic game play a lot of the time. That is, in a game where exploration is a component of play, and in the case of DL, picking up random components, happening across various trigger vents, etc... having everything mapped out with a bouncy ball is counter to natural and evolved play.

Granted, in such games you need good directions so the player can find the location through a journal, hints, or whatever... but... this process is the bread and butter of exploration play and the mini-map/"go here and do this" concept is murder on natural evolving play and why a lot of these games turn into mind numbing "task running" because people essentially just "follow the bouncing ball" like dumb animals to their next objective.

As opposed to have to think, consider, reason, pay attention to details, etc... to figure things out. What's that? I am supposed to go to my room 194 in the complex? Where might that be? Oh... did I look at the walls in the building that pointed out what floor I am on? What about the rooms I walked by, did I pay attention to that? Oh Noes!!!!!! what to do!

It is a simple thing, subtle and honestly... mundane in its design principal, but having people have to think about logistics in play is a great tool to slow the player, develop content exploration naturally, and increase a more natural feel of play in the game.

Or not... here is your bouncy ball idiot... chase it... bored yet?

I remember playing Witcher 3 and having to turn off the mini-map because that's literally the only thing I would stare at when doing investigation quests. I would turn on the detective vision or whatever it was called and then follow the dotted line on the map.
As soon as I turned off the mini-map, I started to actually explore the surroundings. Made for a much more pleasant experience.

Cyberpunk also got a lot better after I used the Limited HUD mod to hide all HUD elements except when in scanner mode.