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Indie devs are worse than AAA

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Indie devs are worse than AAA

Post by rusty_shackleford »

I frequently get indie dev video recommendations(presumably from watching devlogs, etc.,)
The amount of videos like this:
Selection_011.webp
is incredibly high. Indie devs will harp on about all the passion they have for their projects, but for a solid 80-85% of them, it's ********. Indies spend more time thinking about how to best monetize their game than the average AAA developer does by far.
Just picking a genre that sells well means you actually had no passion to begin with beyond making money or perhaps some vague definition of "success". Basically:
wndrbr wrote: July 22nd, 2025, 02:43
Stuff made by indie devs who stopped trying to shoot for the stars and decided to start making these limited gimmicky games with a purely commercial goal in mind.

I've read a bunch of gamedev diaries on this, most of the devs are pretty upfront about that. They don't even have any grand ideas or dreams of making some cool and ambitiout game, they target "small scale gimmicky game that can be easily picked by streamers" from the get go. No difference from some greedy corpo producer like Bobby Kotick.
I don't even understand why you'd want to make an indie game if you don't actually have passion for it. Unless you get massively lucky(yes, lucky) you're going to be making far below minimum wage. You'd have to live somewhere like Venezuela for it to even be close to working a job.
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Post by J1M »

I don't know when this happened, but it's the same people in the industry whether it is AAA or indie. The primary differentiator appears to be whether or not they add a cash shop.

Rational, family-oriented people don't work in the game industry anymore.
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Post by Unhelpful Contrarian »

Everyone always says the same platitudes of how indies are better than AAA, but the reality is that they have little
quality control and even less professionalism . The amounts of in devs who are the morally unhinged progressive cocksuckers is far more present in indie space then AAA by far.
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Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

It's a similar mentality that appears with indie book publishing, called "writing to market". You use Publisher Rocket to find out what is an easy category to get into and get the "Best Seller" title, and to know which categories you are unlikely to make get that title. You can be a "best seller" by selling only 4 books in one genre, even by buying your own copies and giving them away.

J1M wrote: September 13th, 2025, 14:46
Rational, family-oriented people don't work in the game industry anymore.
Or entertainment in general. Entertainment is a luxury good. It is an industry that only does okay when the economy is flourishing aka the 20th century. When the economy is not doing well, people tighten their belts and spend less money on entertainment. People working on movies or TV shows in the LA or Hollywood area (not just actors, but set carpenters, scriptwriters, etc) don't make enough to cover the cost of living. Blizzard employees living in vans. Anyone who wants to support a family will not do these jobs. The live music scene (guitarists playing at restaurants and bars, etc) died with the 2008 housing crash. Normal people left and the people who remain in the guitar are unwell people who pick at each other. Crabs in a bucket. Japanese animators were never well off, but when the bubble collapsed you the people who were left who still wanted to become animators were "otaku" leading to the second generation of anime that Miyazaki famously complains about. The nature of the industry selects for people who in prior centuries like 18th century America or Rome who would not have been allowed a vote because they were not landowners and thus did not have a vested interest in the fate of the country.
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Post by J1M »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: September 13th, 2025, 18:25
It's a similar mentality that appears with indie book publishing, called "writing to market". You use Publisher Rocket to find out what is an easy category to get into and get the "Best Seller" title, and to know which categories you are unlikely to make get that title. You can be a "best seller" by selling only 4 books in one genre, even by buying your own copies and giving them away.

J1M wrote: September 13th, 2025, 14:46
Rational, family-oriented people don't work in the game industry anymore.
Or entertainment in general. Entertainment is a luxury good. It is an industry that only does okay when the economy is flourishing aka the 20th century. When the economy is not doing well, people tighten their belts and spend less money on entertainment. People working on movies or TV shows in the LA or Hollywood area (not just actors, but set carpenters, scriptwriters, etc) don't make enough to cover the cost of living. Blizzard employees living in vans. Anyone who wants to support a family will not do these jobs. The live music scene (guitarists playing at restaurants and bars, etc) died with the 2008 housing crash. Normal people left and the people who remain in the guitar are unwell people who pick at each other. Crabs in a bucket. Japanese animators were never well off, but when the bubble collapsed you the people who were left who still wanted to become animators were "otaku" leading to the second generation of anime that Miyazaki famously complains about. The nature of the industry selects for people who in prior centuries like 18th century America or Rome who would not have been allowed a vote because they were not landowners and thus did not have a vested interest in the fate of the country.
In other words, the industry is currently filled with people who don't need to work to eat. They have another source of wealth/income, such as a trust fund. And that's why the products focus on things they value, such as virtue signaling at childless dinner parties, instead of what the audience wants.
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Post by Kalarion »

Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 13th, 2025, 17:21
Everyone always says the same platitudes of how indies are better than AAA, but the reality is that they have little
quality control and even less professionalism . The amounts of in devs who are the morally unhinged progressive cocksuckers is far more present in indie space then AAA by far.
Kinda like the brainless Indian streetshitter platitudes about giving the enemy weapons blah blah blah huh? Hahahhahahah

Get out.
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Post by Jordy »

I guess this is kind of related, I was wondering about the success of Schedule 1 and how it affects an indie developer. It's a pretty bare bones game yet it sold a **** load and still has a large amount of players.

The loan developer has made a fortune and was going to hire some more people to help with the game but decided against it. The last major update was a lot later than he said it would be.

I'm guessing the game has capped out in sales (any more will trickle in) and it's not even fit for release yet so I wonder what would motivate the dev to continue working on it? Morals? A sense of duty to those who paid in advance for the game? Passion?
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Post by Unhelpful Contrarian »

Kalarion wrote: September 13th, 2025, 19:11
Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 13th, 2025, 17:21
Everyone always says the same platitudes of how indies are better than AAA, but the reality is that they have little
quality control and even less professionalism . The amounts of in devs who are the morally unhinged progressive cocksuckers is far more present in indie space then AAA by far.
Kinda like the brainless Indian streetshitter platitudes about giving the enemy weapons blah blah blah huh? Hahahhahahah

Get out.
The ****** is acting up again ….. Pity but my helping hand is always there for you.
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Post by Manny V »

Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 14th, 2025, 12:22
Kalarion wrote: September 13th, 2025, 19:11
Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 13th, 2025, 17:21
Everyone always says the same platitudes of how indies are better than AAA, but the reality is that they have little
quality control and even less professionalism . The amounts of in devs who are the morally unhinged progressive cocksuckers is far more present in indie space then AAA by far.
Kinda like the brainless Indian streetshitter platitudes about giving the enemy weapons blah blah blah huh? Hahahhahahah

Get out.
The ****** is acting up again ….. Pity but my helping hand is always there for you.
you're not even trying, dude
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Post by Unhelpful Contrarian »

Manny V wrote: September 14th, 2025, 12:36
Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 14th, 2025, 12:22
Kalarion wrote: September 13th, 2025, 19:11


Kinda like the brainless Indian streetshitter platitudes about giving the enemy weapons blah blah blah huh? Hahahhahahah

Get out.
The ****** is acting up again ….. Pity but my helping hand is always there for you.
you're not even trying, dude
It really doesn’t matter at this point anymore. Seeing ‪Kalarion spending so much energy in hatred and disdain every day to responding in every comment I make but refusing to leave is satisfying enough‬.
Last edited by Unhelpful Contrarian on September 14th, 2025, 13:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kalarion »

Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:01

It really doesn’t matter at this point anymore. Seeing ‪Kalarion spending so much energy in hatred and disdain every day to responding in every comment I make but refusing to leave is satisfying enough‬.
The streetshitting monkey (that's you, you're the monkey) screeches mindlessly as he throws poo. Get out.
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Kalarion did this a lot better you know.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:37
Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:01

It really doesn’t matter at this point anymore. Seeing ‪Kalarion spending so much energy in hatred and disdain every day to responding in every comment I make but refusing to leave is satisfying enough‬.
The streetshitting monkey (that's you, you're the monkey) screeches mindlessly as he throws poo. Get out.
Read the rules, identify the one you keep breaking
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Post by Kalarion »

rusty_shackleford wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:39
Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:37
Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:01

It really doesn’t matter at this point anymore. Seeing ‪Kalarion spending so much energy in hatred and disdain every day to responding in every comment I make but refusing to leave is satisfying enough‬.
The streetshitting monkey (that's you, you're the monkey) screeches mindlessly as he throws poo. Get out.
Read the rules, identify the one you keep breaking
I don't think I broke any of them, but I'm not going to try to rules-lawyer the king. Is this an order?
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:43
rusty_shackleford wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:39
Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:37


The streetshitting monkey (that's you, you're the monkey) screeches mindlessly as he throws poo. Get out.
Read the rules, identify the one you keep breaking
I don't think I broke any of them, but I'm not going to try to rules-lawyer the king. Is this an order?
Following someone from thread to thread to attack him is just repeated attempts at derailment. Make a thread for it and quote him there.
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Post by DecadeRiptide »

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Post by Kalarion »

rusty_shackleford wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:45
Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:43
rusty_shackleford wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:39


Read the rules, identify the one you keep breaking
I don't think I broke any of them, but I'm not going to try to rules-lawyer the king. Is this an order?
Following someone from thread to thread to attack him is just repeated attempts at derailment. Make a thread for it and quote him there.
Creating a thread for containment clearly breaks the intent of my promise. I appreciate the attempt at an olive branch but it wasn't needed.

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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 14:01
rusty_shackleford wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:45
Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:43


I don't think I broke any of them, but I'm not going to try to rules-lawyer the king. Is this an order?
Following someone from thread to thread to attack him is just repeated attempts at derailment. Make a thread for it and quote him there.
Creating a thread for containment clearly breaks the intent of my promise. I appreciate the attempt at an olive branch but it wasn't needed.

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You want me to stop. I will obey.
Just make a thread and quote his posts there you dip
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Post by sheet »

AAA is narrow in number of releases, high in production value (meaning they have to make a minimum shippable product), wide in personnel. Now, is it that the talented devs present can keep projects on track despite a multitude of diversity hires they have to corral, so some AAA games come out functional and appealing? There's still talent in the AAA space, but it's stifled by having to make DEI / Monetized gacha slop.

Indie is wide in releases, low in production value, but narrow in personnel per project. Much of indie releases are slop that don't appeal to anyone and don't need to satisfy any minimum standards, but having a talented developer run an entire project and putting out the next Rimworld or Factorio or whatever can generate insanes spikes of mass appealing media among the garbage. So talent exists and can shine in some circumstances.
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Post by NotAI »

Pretty much.

The market is split into two losing patterns.

The randomly selected indie dev has no money for marketing, so must make something "that streamers want to play", if they don't have outside income to just pay streamers and buy ads.

The randomly selected AAA team has plenty of money for marketing, but selects devs today based on networking, location, "prestige" (which isn't real, because Kojima is probably the only "real celebrity"), to justify their budget in case of failure. If they must choose, they aim to fail and justify their failure rather than risk making something good they can't justify if it fails, and specifically, justification must be acceptable to the actual sources of OPM. It matters who is putting up the OPM. To whom they have to justify possible failure. They cater to the preferences of the source of the OPM. Not to the preferences of consumers. Soon enough, the vast majority of people involved are with preferences and habits aligned to those of the sources of the OPM, and their friends network. Usually having preferences total opposite of what the consumers want. This is also why outside investors look at this and tend to give games a hard pass. It is very very very hard to raise VC for games development: most outside investors are familiar only with AAA patterns of development and transfer their distrust of such patterns to whole games market.

Two ways to lose and no way to win.

The winning combo is an indie game that also has money behind it for marketing, but that, by the nature of the split, is very rare.

In the special case, indie can make something good, because at least you don't need permission (yet) to make a good indie game. However, it's lightning in a bottle, because it has to be both good and aimed at streamers, and plenty of great games are so-so in terms of streaming potential. It is always designed for streamers first, and perhaps also happens to be interesting and passionate by the dual appeal nature of the design.
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Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

The winning strategy is to do what Nihon Falcom has been doing (and to a lesser extent, Gust). Focus on one or two franchises. With a franchise, you will only need to particularly market the first game (aka the 2010s Amazon epic fantasy book series marketing approach), and then fans who get through that will follow you from game to game and buy up the sequels at however much you charge for it. Make your games available on as many of the latest platforms as possible so fans can buy up your back catalog. This is how you deal with the increasingly ridiculous cost of marketing: not trying to capture a new audience each time and casting a wide net, but instead trying to focus on extracting more money from a small base of hardcore customers (so basically a sort of live service). Try localizing your games to foreign markets. Release one game per year to retain audience interest and to enlargen your back catalog. Reuse assets from game to game to keep costs down. Stash most of your profits in the bank and resist the temptation to continually expand. It is okay to keep your company size at 50 to 60 people for decades on end, because if you just keep expanding then you will 1. start running into managerial issues and 2. run into the same trap that the AAAs are in where they have so many people on payroll and their costs so high that they can't afford flops and thus need to go with "safe" options, and one flop leads to layoffs or death of the studio because they have nowhere near enough liquid cash to survive the flop. Whereas if you bank most of your profits and have a system of fans buying $600+ of back catalog games, you can endure several flops in a row and still keep on trucking.
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Post by Tinky Winky »

This is a phenomenon of not just games but the whole indie creative scene in general these days, both east and west. You can see how even in Japan 90% of indie authors either only follow the current bandwagon or just make the title as gimmicky as possible. Why? Social media is to blame IMO; it pulverized the good old online community and shaped the internet into a normie-infested shithole. Therefore, we now have tons of bums who only want to make a quick buck out of normies instead of doing it for passion, as a passion project will likely just get buried under layers of brownoid slop these days.
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Post by NotAI »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: September 13th, 2025, 18:25
It's a similar mentality that appears with indie book publishing, called "writing to market". ... Or entertainment in general. Entertainment is a luxury good. It is an industry that only does okay when the economy is flourishing aka the 20th century. When the economy is not doing well, people tighten their belts and spend less money on entertainment. People working on movies or TV shows in the LA or Hollywood area (not just actors, but set carpenters, scriptwriters, etc) don't make enough to cover the cost of living. Blizzard employees living in vans. Anyone who wants to support a family will not do these jobs. The live music scene (guitarists playing at restaurants and bars, etc) died with the 2008 housing crash. Normal people left and the people who remain in the guitar are unwell people who pick at each other. Crabs in a bucket.
Good point.

Though it's worse than people tightening belts.

The issue is that the source of OPM changes. The culture of OPM changes.

Entertainment has the same problem that startups have. Hockey stick curve.

The issue is that talent for entertainment rarely coincides with inherited wealth. Edith Wharton was an exception in that respect.

David Gemmell was a bouncer and a journalist? Frederick Forsyth was a journalist? Broke. Robert Heinlein was broke. Stephen King was broke. Most of the famous writers in 1750-2025 were all broke before they started writing, by coincidence.

One of the reason many other markets work is simply that the people that enter them already have generational wealth (plus networking in the same market) along with the genuine skill that is needed to produce goods consumers want of that type.

So it comes down to the ease with which networking brings OPM. This changes over time based on financial factors but also based on culture.

The structure of this kind of market market and whether it thrives or not is far less up to consumers than groceries. It's mostly up to the networking and culture that pays for everything up front. If the culture that provides the up front changes, such that weekly variety declines for any reason, this kind of market rapidly withers. As the rapid innovation and variety withers, consumers stop checking regularly for updates. Meaning newcomers have even less of a chance than before of selling anything. By that point, consumers have given up foraging. They start waiting for marketing, because events are so infrequent. Big marketing becomes even more mandatory, but less justified than before, because the market has shrunk. The absence of serious marketing in general signals lower status to the market as a whole, and entire generations start mostly ignoring the market, because the overall status of an entertainment activity matters to quite a few people. They will only read if enough other people are seen reading and book ads are common, like they were before.

Tom Clancy was probably the only one who got a small first deal and then kept selling and selling until it became a huge deal. How the market is supposed to work. Doesn't need big marketing. Doesn't even need big spending from consumers. But it does require big foraging from the side of consumers. That, however, depends not on the author but on the state of the whole market, the rapidity and ease and probability with which interesting books come out to justify and reward costly search by consumers.

Much is the same for games.
Val the Moofia Boss wrote: September 15th, 2025, 01:24
The winning strategy is to do what Nihon Falcom has been doing (and to a lesser extent, Gust). Focus on one or two franchises. With a franchise, you will only need to particularly market the first game, and then fans who get through that will follow you from game to game and buy up the sequels at however much you charge for it.This is how you deal with the increasingly ridiculous cost of marketing: not trying to capture a new audience each time and casting a wide net.
That's one good strategy, though it struggles somewhat when consumers foraging too little because too few other interesting books, game, etc are coming out to reward search.
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Post by Mikeal »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: September 13th, 2025, 18:25
Blizzard employees living in vans.
Based.
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Post by Unhelpful Contrarian »

Kalarion wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:37
Unhelpful Contrarian wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:01

It really doesn’t matter at this point anymore. Seeing ‪Kalarion spending so much energy in hatred and disdain every day to responding in every comment I make but refusing to leave is satisfying enough‬.
The streetshitting monkey (that's you, you're the monkey) screeches mindlessly as he throws poo. Get out.
Ok….Good to know I guess.
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Post by Lich »

A lot of these people want to be "respected" game developers, not make good games.
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DecadeRiptide wrote: September 14th, 2025, 13:59
Poor @Unhelpful Contrarian :(

I really didn’t have an issues with ‪Kalarion despite his colourful language in the comments about me. however the derailing of conversations was the annoying part.‬ I didn’t want such heated discussions turning to a full on vendetta because of some admittedly slight snide remarks I made , but it is what it is unfortunately.
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Post by Brother Chad »

People should stop coming to gamedev.

The only people in gamedev should be batshit crazy. If you're not already, stay away for your own good.
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Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

Lich wrote: September 15th, 2025, 23:55
A lot of these people want to be "respected" game developers, not make good games.
Similar issue happening with novels where a lot of people want the perceived "status" of "being an author", but don't actually want to do the work required to write a novel. Hence the trend of churning out AI generated books on Amazon. The sad thing is that this attempt at "status" does not bring happiness. "Being an author" or a game dev does not give you the social status you think it does. If you say at a party "I am an author" they say "oh cool, did you watch Game of Thrones last night?". Nobody cares unless you are a big household name author or George Lucas, in which case the fame is probably more of an annoyance as people pitch their ideas to you hoping for a business relationship rather than out of true friendship.

Chris Kurnell killed himself. Didn't matter he had a family, and good looks, and lots of money, and millions of fans. Being an artist does not automatically give you happiness. If you want other people to love you, there are many things that you can do that are easier than wasting your time playing music you don't like or typing words in front of a screen for hours or doing tedious programming and debugging. Go to your neighbor's house and help them do something. Mow their lawn. Find and make friends and do things with them.
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Post by Acrux »

Every time I see the title of this thread I think it says "Indian devs are worse than AAA" and I think to myself, "yeah, duh".
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Post by Lich »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: September 16th, 2025, 00:58
Lich wrote: September 15th, 2025, 23:55
A lot of these people want to be "respected" game developers, not make good games.
Similar issue happening with novels where a lot of people want the perceived "status" of "being an author", but don't actually want to do the work required to write a novel. Hence the trend of churning out AI generated books on Amazon. The sad thing is that this attempt at "status" does not bring happiness. "Being an author" or a game dev does not give you the social status you think it does. If you say at a party "I am an author" they say "oh cool, did you watch Game of Thrones last night?". Nobody cares unless you are a big household name author or George Lucas, in which case the fame is probably more of an annoyance as people pitch their ideas to you hoping for a business relationship rather than out of true friendship.

Chris Kurnell killed himself. Didn't matter he had a family, and good looks, and lots of money, and millions of fans. Being an artist does not automatically give you happiness. If you want other people to love you, there are many things that you can do that are easier than wasting your time playing music you don't like or typing words in front of a screen for hours or doing tedious programming and debugging. Go to your neighbor's house and help them do something. Mow their lawn. Find and make friends and do things with them.
They're very socially oriented, usually middle-class liberals. How they think they're perceived is very important for them.