Are weapon skills interesting?

[Tweed]

but once you go down that route you're headed towards buildfaggotry and some people chimpout at that design philosophy.

True, but I don't see the point in designing to avoid them. If Karl Jobst can sperg out about Pac-Man and Donkey Kong, people can sperg out about anything.

People see buildfagging as getting locked into archtypes, even though that tends to exist in almost every type of skill system anyway except for Bethesderp games where you can become a god in every single skill.

Underrail demands that you plan your character out in detail from the word go, or else you will fail. It doesn't stop experimentation, except on DOMINATING (yes, it's ALLCAPS) where you have to get really specific in order to survive, but that difficulty is meant to be over the top.

[Norfleet]

My opinion is that breakpoints are interesting. Continuous values like a skill that goes from 0-200 are less interesting to me. Talents/perks are essentially all breakpoints (unless they give you 0.5% crit or something). You can band-aid a skill system by adding break points to it (when you get to 100 skill, you get perk X).

That's basically a breakpoint, yes. 0-200 basically just means "all or nothing", since the only points of interest are 0, where you haven't done anything, and 200, where your work here is done.

[Norfleet]

People see buildfagging as getting locked into archtypes, even though that tends to exist in almost every type of skill system anyway

There's "getting locked into archetypes", which is just "a class", and then there's being rigidly locked to a single thing. See the way things spin out in Diablo 2, where you're not only a "barbarian", but you're specifically a barbarian that uses a single weapon and a single primary attack skill, due to skillpoints coming out of a limited pool that you must invest into specific weapons and skills. This is probably not really that bad of a thing in a game where you just endlessly grind the same monsters and buildfagging is thus most of the game, but not necessarily great in a more story-driven game with an endpoint where pushing this sort of thinking means forcing the player to metagame, either through using genre knowledge to second-guess the developers, or just receiving a tipoff like "don't take this skill" or "pick this weapon".

except for Bethesderp games where you can become a god in every single skill.

Well, in Bethderp, you can become a god in every skill, but only if you play for well beyond the normal play duration. In practice, you will develop your core skills, the ones you genuinely care about, early on. And honestly, that wasn't really true until Skyrim. In Morrowind and Oblivion, levelling wrong = **** your character.

[Tweed]

People see buildfagging as getting locked into archtypes, even though that tends to exist in almost every type of skill system anyway

There's "getting locked into archetypes", which is just "a class", and then there's being rigidly locked to a single thing. See the way things spin out in Diablo 2, where you're not only a "barbarian", but you're specifically a barbarian that uses a single weapon and a single primary attack skill, due to skillpoints coming out of a limited pool that you must invest into specific weapons and skills. This is probably not really that bad of a thing in a game where you just endlessly grind the same monsters and buildfagging is thus most of the game, but not necessarily great in a more story-driven game with an endpoint where pushing this sort of thinking means forcing the player to metagame, either through using genre knowledge to second-guess the developers, or just receiving a tipoff like "don't take this skill" or "pick this weapon".

except for Bethesderp games where you can become a god in every single skill.

Well, in Bethderp, you can become a god in every skill, but only if you play for well beyond the normal play duration. In practice, you will develop your core skills, the ones you genuinely care about, early on. And honestly, that wasn't really true until Skyrim. In Morrowind and Oblivion, levelling wrong = **** your character.

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skyrim.

[Norfleet]

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skyrim.

Well, obviously, when you already know exactly what to do and are speedrunning the process by STEALING ALL THE ITEMS.

[Oyster Sauce]

People see buildfagging as getting locked into archtypes, even though that tends to exist in almost every type of skill system anyway

There's "getting locked into archetypes", which is just "a class", and then there's being rigidly locked to a single thing. See the way things spin out in Diablo 2, where you're not only a "barbarian", but you're specifically a barbarian that uses a single weapon and a single primary attack skill, due to skillpoints coming out of a limited pool that you must invest into specific weapons and skills. This is probably not really that bad of a thing in a game where you just endlessly grind the same monsters and buildfagging is thus most of the game, but not necessarily great in a more story-driven game with an endpoint where pushing this sort of thinking means forcing the player to metagame, either through using genre knowledge to second-guess the developers, or just receiving a tipoff like "don't take this skill" or "pick this weapon".

except for Bethesderp games where you can become a god in every single skill.

Well, in Bethderp, you can become a god in every skill, but only if you play for well beyond the normal play duration. In practice, you will develop your core skills, the ones you genuinely care about, early on. And honestly, that wasn't really true until Skyrim. In Morrowind and Oblivion, levelling wrong = **** your character.

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skyrim.

*uses unintended exploits discovered by looking up cheats online and meta knowledge derived from 15 prior playthroughs*
"heh this game is too easy!"

[Tweed]

There's "getting locked into archetypes", which is just "a class", and then there's being rigidly locked to a single thing. See the way things spin out in Diablo 2, where you're not only a "barbarian", but you're specifically a barbarian that uses a single weapon and a single primary attack skill, due to skillpoints coming out of a limited pool that you must invest into specific weapons and skills. This is probably not really that bad of a thing in a game where you just endlessly grind the same monsters and buildfagging is thus most of the game, but not necessarily great in a more story-driven game with an endpoint where pushing this sort of thinking means forcing the player to metagame, either through using genre knowledge to second-guess the developers, or just receiving a tipoff like "don't take this skill" or "pick this weapon".


Well, in Bethderp, you can become a god in every skill, but only if you play for well beyond the normal play duration. In practice, you will develop your core skills, the ones you genuinely care about, early on. And honestly, that wasn't really true until Skyrim. In Morrowind and Oblivion, levelling wrong = **** your character.

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skyrim.

*uses unintended exploits discovered by looking up cheats online and meta knowledge derived from 15 prior playthroughs*
"heh this game is too easy!"

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skryim, sorry you're a mouthreather.

[Oyster Sauce]

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skyrim.

*uses unintended exploits discovered by looking up cheats online and meta knowledge derived from 15 prior playthroughs*
"heh this game is too easy!"

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skryim, sorry you're a mouthreather.

(Tweed has Post-Cheater Rationalization Disorder)

[dagal]

It just forces you to use a guide before deciding on your build, since you don't know what equipment is OP at the end, and what player traps to avoid. Unless the game lets you respec, but then this skill-lock mechanic is pointless. Using D2 as an example, I usually just raised STR to keep up with the stuff I'd like to have equiped, and would consult a guide for futureproofing without wasting points.

Still, D2 gets redeemed by letting you randomly find OP unique or set items that can make you reconsider your build or play style.

[W1llus]

I thought about it and depends on the game. Nioh 1 and 2 immediately comes to mind because spending points on a weapon unlocks a far more expansive and customizable moveset with multiple combos and attacks and finishers and so on.

[maidenhaver IV]

How common is playing a crpg where you couldn't progress, because you levelled a weapon skill the boss was impervious to, or because your weapon wasn't magic enough, and your wizard couldn't carry the party yet? I did this in my first IWD run, because I made a party of 4 and Bellyfat was impervious to the only +5 weapon I had. When you talk about player traps, that's what I think of, not "oooh, that's the synergy I really wanted. Time to restart!"

I don't think I've encountered it in arpgs.

[J1M]

My opinion is that breakpoints are interesting. Continuous values like a skill that goes from 0-200 are less interesting to me. Talents/perks are essentially all breakpoints (unless they give you 0.5% crit or something). You can band-aid a skill system by adding break points to it (when you get to 100 skill, you get perk X).

That's basically a breakpoint, yes. 0-200 basically just means "all or nothing", since the only points of interest are 0, where you haven't done anything, and 200, where your work here is done.

That's not what a breakpoint is.

[Tweed]

*uses unintended exploits discovered by looking up cheats online and meta knowledge derived from 15 prior playthroughs*
"heh this game is too easy!"

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skryim, sorry you're a mouthreather.

(Tweed has Post-Cheater Rationalization Disorder)

Just because you didn't grasp 5/5/1 until you looked it up fifteen years later doesn't mean the rest of us are that dense.

[Oyster Sauce]

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skryim, sorry you're a mouthreather.

(Tweed has Post-Cheater Rationalization Disorder)

Just because you didn't grasp 5/5/1 until you looked it up fifteen years later doesn't mean the rest of us are that dense.

I literally played Morrowind with you and you beelined a legendary artifact for every slot

[Tweed]

(Tweed has Post-Cheater Rationalization Disorder)

Just because you didn't grasp 5/5/1 until you looked it up fifteen years later doesn't mean the rest of us are that dense.

I literally played Morrowind with you and you beelined a legendary artifact for every slot

And you enchanted godlike equipment, your point?

[Oyster Sauce]

Just because you didn't grasp 5/5/1 until you looked it up fifteen years later doesn't mean the rest of us are that dense.

I literally played Morrowind with you and you beelined a legendary artifact for every slot

And you enchanted godlike equipment, your point?

scroll up

[Tweed]

I literally played Morrowind with you and you beelined a legendary artifact for every slot

And you enchanted godlike equipment, your point?

scroll up

I accept your concession.

[rusty_shackleford]

Throwing is a skill that I understand why it's put in, but would never specialize in. Seems like a trap pick.

This is an area where classes show their obvious strength: the designer includes things that are not min-max optimized as part of the design. You pick the Thief class and get throwing as part of the package.

---

3.5e having weapon specialization was a massive mistake

[rusty_shackleford]

Fallout 4 ****** up though because someone decided "Well, players love perks so let's make EVERYTHING a perk!"

Did it?

[rusty_shackleford]

Underrail demands that you plan your character out in detail from the word go, or else you will fail. It doesn't stop experimentation, except on DOMINATING (yes, it's ALLCAPS) where you have to get really specific in order to survive, but that difficulty is meant to be over the top.

Yeah that's great, until you do the thing 80% of players did and pick assault rifles then realize 20 hours in higher level ones require strength and nothing tells you this when making your character so you wasted a bunch of feats

[rusty_shackleford]

There's "getting locked into archetypes", which is just "a class", and then there's being rigidly locked to a single thing. See the way things spin out in Diablo 2, where you're not only a "barbarian", but you're specifically a barbarian that uses a single weapon and a single primary attack skill, due to skillpoints coming out of a limited pool that you must invest into specific weapons and skills. This is probably not really that bad of a thing in a game where you just endlessly grind the same monsters and buildfagging is thus most of the game, but not necessarily great in a more story-driven game with an endpoint where pushing this sort of thinking means forcing the player to metagame, either through using genre knowledge to second-guess the developers, or just receiving a tipoff like "don't take this skill" or "pick this weapon".


Well, in Bethderp, you can become a god in every skill, but only if you play for well beyond the normal play duration. In practice, you will develop your core skills, the ones you genuinely care about, early on. And honestly, that wasn't really true until Skyrim. In Morrowind and Oblivion, levelling wrong = **** your character.

It's ridiculously easy to achieve godhood in Morrowind and Skyrim.

*uses unintended exploits discovered by looking up cheats online and meta knowledge derived from 15 prior playthroughs*
"heh this game is too easy!"

I recall breaking the game when I played it at release by just using alchemy