Are weapon skills interesting?

[ArcaneLurker]

Thread title. Is it fun or interesting to put points into a skill that just makes you be able to use a type of weapon better?

You could get rid of the numerical weapon skill and have tiers to skill levels, like novice to master, which change animations or what styles & weapons you have access to.

In Blades of Fire, it's all about the quality of the weapons, and I don't feel like it misses out.

[Tweed]

Kenshi does the "better by doing" thing, but all of the weapons have purpose there, there's a right tool for the job and you take penalties for using large weapons in enclosed spaces. Well, except maybe martial arts which are stupidly OP and let you turn into Kenshiro at the high end. Although at the low end it will get you killed faster than any other unskilled weapon type, where the act of punching ends up hurting you. You can also be a master at weapons, but if you don't know how to take a hit, you'll go down in a heap so it all synergizes together better than your average skill-grind system.

[Tweed]

I can't remember which, but I know a few games that do better by doing, but only within a certain level range. Something is either too trivial or too advanced, there's a goldilocks zone of skill gains.

Actually, I think EQ does this for trade skills.

[rusty_shackleford]

don't think I like learn by use tbh

[rusty_shackleford]

don't think I like learn by use tbh

unsure how I feel about it when used in combination with another system e.g., Everquest(and WoW inherited it) weapon/spell skills have their own separate levels to your character level
also don't know how well it fits outside of MMOs

[TKVNC]

don't think I like learn by use tbh

unsure how I feel about it when used in combination with another system e.g., Everquest(and WoW inherited it) weapon/spell skills have their own separate levels to your character level
also don't know how well it fits outside of MMOs

MMO's are just grind simulators.

As for non-MMO's, weapon skills add SOVL. Fundamentally, they help communicate the disparity between between the skilled, and the amateur.

Interestingly, Morrowind did well with this, people are only mad because there was no clear feedback from dodge animations.

[rusty_shackleford]

As for non-MMO's, weapon skills add SOVL. Fundamentally, they help communicate the disparity between between the skilled, and the amateur.

but how is it any different from just tying how well you can hit things to your level

[TKVNC]

As for non-MMO's, weapon skills add SOVL. Fundamentally, they help communicate the disparity between between the skilled, and the amateur.

but how is it any different from just tying how well you can hit things to your level

Well, you could be a powerful hero, but being able to use equipment you are unfamiliar with as well as that which you are, borders into Reddit superhero slop.

There is something simple, and honest about learning how to fight as part of your characters progression.

The inverse is pressing a buttongl, and having something awesome happen...

[rusty_shackleford]

There is something simple, and honest about learning how to fight as part of your characters progression.

Right but that should involve training.

The inverse is pressing a buttongl, and having something awesome happen...

I like when awesome things happen when I press buttons tho

---

Starting to think KCD had a good model. I don't mean its XP gain system, but training with Bernard. Getting introduced to something, going and using it in the wild, then having to show mastery with it.

[TKVNC]

I like when awesome things happen when I press buttons tho

I agree with KCD, and training, but quote rel. is unforgivable.

[J1M]

I'm not so sure. There are treatises on the handling of many weapon types, and on battlefield tactics. Generally they all refer to the need to train specific skills.

I don't really see how the skills required to use a spear would translate to a sword or vice versa

The same way people who are very good at one sport are able to quickly learn another.

I suppose it's more that they understand training regimes, and have the discipline.

This could be reflected by Fighters having a 200% increase in skill gain with physical weapons.

This sounds like it is coming from the perspective that one learns how to play tennis from a book. And that none of that book would apply to pickleball. But that's not how motor skills are developed.

I think a lot of designers view themselves as wizards and that's why somehow spellcasting is a more transferrable skill than physical skills.

It's hard to even imagine a game that asks a wizard to pick two individual spells to apply skill points in and be expected to only use those two spells. (Or spread them evenly to all spells and suck at everything)

[rusty_shackleford]

Crazy that Arcanum was one of the last RPGs made by someone who cared about thinkin' deeply on RPG mechanic design

[TKVNC]

The same way people who are very good at one sport are able to quickly learn another.

I suppose it's more that they understand training regimes, and have the discipline.

This could be reflected by Fighters having a 200% increase in skill gain with physical weapons.

This sounds like it is coming from the perspective that one learns how to play tennis from a book. And that none of that book would apply to pickleball. But that's not how motor skills are developed.

I think a lot of designers view themselves as wizards and that's why somehow spellcasting is a more transferrable skill than physical skills.

It's hard to even imagine a game that asks a wizard to pick two individual spells to apply skill points in and be expected to only use those two spells. (Or spread them evenly to all spells and suck at everything)

Au contraire, you might pick up pickleball faster, but you don't immediately know how to play it.

[logincrash]

I think the problem with the skill point system is that it can lead to a silly scenario where your character is reading books or picking locks to grind XP to level up and then suddenly becomes able to shoot a gun or swing a sword much better.

[Acrux]

I think the problem with the skill point system is that it can lead to a silly scenario where your character is reading books or picking locks to grind XP to level up and then suddenly becomes able to shoot a gun or swing a sword much better.

That's literally me, though.

[rusty_shackleford]

I think the problem with the skill point system is that it can lead to a silly scenario where your character is reading books or picking locks to grind XP to level up and then suddenly becomes able to shoot a gun or swing a sword much better.

Games that have learn-by-use gated by levels tend to handle this the best, I think.
Already listed MMOs earlier, but Daggerfall is an obvious example.

[Rumbles]

One of my favorite games for a year has been No rest for the wicked, it has a souls-like skill system and it severely limits what weapons you (can) use. Too much points in dexterity? **** you, stay on bows and daggers. It feels good because you make the choice early and the level cap is rather low, you grow into the game with your choice. Indecisiveness has to be rooted out of games, you limit yourself doing such **** in singleplayer games and you ruin others experience in multiplayer games (first timing characters in a moba or hero shooter).

[logincrash]

I guess you can have different skills give different kinds of XP based on what category they belong to and this XP will translate to different amounts of skill points on level up.
Like, if you fight and kill ****, you get Fighting XP and can put a whole bunch of skill points into Fighting Skills (different weapons, blocking, dodging, etc.). If you do exploring, you get skill points for Exploring skills (lockpicking, spotting, tracking, etc.).

[TKVNC]

I think the problem with the skill point system is that it can lead to a silly scenario where your character is reading books or picking locks to grind XP to level up and then suddenly becomes able to shoot a gun or swing a sword much better.

Games that have learn-by-use gated by levels tend to handle this the best, I think.
Already listed MMOs earlier, but Daggerfall is an obvious example.

What of Morrowind, and Oblivion, where your learning increases your overall level?

I think there's a common ground to be had, but truthfully, skill should be earned in a logically coherent way.

[rusty_shackleford]

What of Morrowind, and Oblivion, where your learning increases your overall level?

iirc you can just keep leveling all skills to max in morrowind/oblivion, right?

[TKVNC]

What of Morrowind, and Oblivion, where your learning increases your overall level?

iirc you can just keep leveling all skills to max in morrowind/oblivion, right?

Well yes, but after a while it forces you to level up when you sleep

[maidenhaver IV]

I don't believe in increasing abilities/attributes. These ought to be treated as innate, outside of augments or potions.

What about Strength and Dexterity and Endurance? Those can be improved with exercise.

In a cRPG, I'd want those ability scores to represent your characters' genetic potential.

[rusty_shackleford]

In a cRPG, I'd want those ability scores to represent your characters' genetic potential.

Rolemaster did this

[logincrash]

I don't believe in increasing abilities/attributes. These ought to be treated as innate, outside of augments or potions.

What about Strength and Dexterity and Endurance? Those can be improved with exercise.

In a cRPG, I'd want those ability scores to represent your characters' genetic potential.

Then how about choosing the maximum cap your attributes can reach when making your character at the start, then starting with lower ones and then have them automatically raise up when leveling up?
So, say I put my Strength at 9 max, Dexterity at 10 max, Endurance at 6 max, but then I start the game at level 1 with STR 4, DEX 5, END 1 and it climbs up by 1 every 4 levels.
That way you have both the genetic potential idea and the feeling of advancing physically as your level rises.

[HereForTheFood]

It really depend on how it's implemented. I like the idea of investing into a single weapon and 'mastering' it, but these system can easily become anti fun if implemented wrong. For example, if you are playing a game with a lot of weapon types, say pathfinder, and you invest in the longsword but keep finding better weapons of others types, you can't really change weapons.

[boot]

It gives fighters something to do

[maidenhaver IV]

In a cRPG, I'd want those ability scores to represent your characters' genetic potential.

Rolemaster did this

You found me something to read. :read:

What about Strength and Dexterity and Endurance? Those can be improved with exercise.

In a cRPG, I'd want those ability scores to represent your characters' genetic potential.

Then how about choosing the maximum cap your attributes can reach when making your character at the start, then starting with lower ones and then have them automatically raise up when leveling up?
So, say I put my Strength at 9 max, Dexterity at 10 max, Endurance at 6 max, but then I start the game at level 1 with STR 4, DEX 5, END 1 and it climbs up by 1 every 4 levels.
That way you have both the genetic potential idea and the feeling of advancing physically as your level rises.

I'm good with a system allowing it, alongside characters who are already at max ability.

[J1M]

To circle back to the first post, I'd argue this thread is more interesting than any weapon skills in a game.

[maidenhaver IV]

In a cRPG, I'd want those ability scores to represent your characters' genetic potential.

Rolemaster did this

The rules sound adaptable to a rtwp crpg.

Actually, the pause wouldn't be necessary. Its adaptable to rounds w/o pause, like jade empire.

[J1M]

If I was tasked with coming up with weapon skills for a game, here's what I'd do.

First, I'm not going to create a unique skill for 20 different types of swords and polearms. So the bonuses will be associated with a weapon type, such as "swords", "clubs", and "spears".

Next, each grouping will be associated with a particular trait, such as "critical hits", "stunning blow", or "bypass armor".

Finally, when you acquire a benefit, such as spears allowing you to bypass armor 10% of the time, you also get half of that benefit (5% chance to bypass armor in this case) to all other weapon types. Is it better to only put points in a single weapon type and stick to that all game? Maybe. Or maybe the loot distribution is uneven and due to the talent point design you don't feel like an idiot for not knowing the designers ran out of time after creating swords.