Equipment durability is necessary for immersion

[rusty_shackleford]

Something that seems to have largely disappeared from newer RPGs is equipment durability. I suspect how these minor mechanics get removed is someone suggests it's minor, just a nuisance("go and repair the item at the blacksmith"), etc., without realizing the implication it has on grounding the game in the gameworld.
After finishing a dungeon or going on an exploration, my gear should be in tatters. This makes it a very good part of any well-designed attrition system(which tends to be lacking altogether now)

I guess as far as modern games go I'll give some credit to BG3 for at least making your characters visibly dirty, bloody, etc., Probably doesn't go far enough because they want characters to look 'cinematic' or whatever. No durability system tho! 5e apparently doesn't have any durability rules(optional?)

[WhiteShark]

5e apparently doesn't have any durability rules(optional?)

Does any edition of D&D have durability rules? I'm not aware of any.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It should be used in moderation, namely as a part of the gameplay loop as one of several reasons to not spend your entire gametime out in the wilderness for hours and hours on end and to eventually come back to town for a break in between excursions. I do find Breath of the Wild syndrome enjoyable. You're hoarding items you don't want to break, and use them to fight bad guys so you can get items that are only as good as you just had, or worse, so you realize that the best way to play the game is to avoid combat and at that point you have to ask why you are playing such an unenjoyable game.

[WhiteShark]

Durability is good if it leads to meaningful decisions, which probably necessitates the game having a clock, so I can imagine it working well in a roguelike, but not so much in a typical cRPG.

[rusty_shackleford]

5e apparently doesn't have any durability rules(optional?)

Does any edition of D&D have durability rules? I'm not aware of any.

AD&D 2E, Complete Fighter

[rusty_shackleford]

Durability is good if it leads to meaningful decisions, which probably necessitates the game having a clock, so I can imagine it working well in a roguelike, but not so much in a typical cRPG.

I don't see why it needs to lead to a "meaingful decision". Contrast e.g.,

Did the shaman quest line, Call of Water last night. Took forever. I had to travel all across the world multiple times. Going to assume some gay guy who sucks penises removed it from the game.

Class quests were cool, trainers added immersion to the world etc.,
Every little bit that was removed chipped away at the SOVL.

These did not lead to "meaningful decisions", the part some people did not like was removed and the game was simplified. Yet it clearly made the game worse if you care about playing it as anything beyond Numbers Go Up

[rusty_shackleford]

5e apparently doesn't have any durability rules(optional?)

Does any edition of D&D have durability rules? I'm not aware of any.

AD&D 2E, Complete Fighter

I love (nearly) all the 2E splatbooks they were made specifically for me, no other edition has rules for nearly everything


3E/3.5E has a lot of splatbooks but it's just not the same. Feels more like they just add "content" in the same way modern viddy games are about "content". Excessive focus on adding new classes and such rather than fleshing out existing ones/existing rules, optional rules, etc.,

[logincrash]

You're hoarding items you don't want to break, and use them to fight bad guys so you can get items that are only as good as you just had, or worse, so you realize that the best way to play the game is to avoid combat and at that point you have to ask why you are playing such an unenjoyable game.

That's how I played Dying Light. I'd collect a ton of high tier weapons and never use them. I played through the entire game sitting on a pile of shiny unused swords and bats and axes and ****.
I think a good remedy for that is to make equipment break but be repairable, like in 3D Fallouts. That way you never permanently lose the cool weapon, only have it be disabled for a time because of degradation.

[rusty_shackleford]

Need a game that has you wear a backup set of gear you gotta rotate because it takes time to repair your equipment and you don't want to walk around with armor

[WhiteShark]

These did not lead to "meaningful decisions", the part some people did not like was removed and the game was simplified. Yet it clearly made the game worse if you care about playing it as anything beyond Numbers Go Up

Ok, I suppose you're making the simulationist argument: "Equipment should break down because it breaks down in real life." Fair enough. I think whether to include durability mostly comes down to aesthetic preference in the context of cRPGs, which is why I came at it from the gamist perspective, but I understand the appeal.

What about magic equipment, though? It would be weird if you had to go repair your +5 sword after a few battles.

[WhiteShark]

Need a game that has you wear a backup set of gear you gotta rotate because it takes time to repair your equipment and you don't want to walk around with armor

Again, I feel this necessitates a clock. Time needs to be a meaningful resource lest the player just wait for his main gear to be repaired.

[rusty_shackleford]

These did not lead to "meaningful decisions", the part some people did not like was removed and the game was simplified. Yet it clearly made the game worse if you care about playing it as anything beyond Numbers Go Up

Ok, I suppose you're making the simulationist argument: "Equipment should break down because it breaks down in real life." Fair enough. I think whether to include durability mostly comes down to aesthetic preference in the context of cRPGs, which is why I came at it from the gamist perspective, but I understand the appeal.

What about magic equipment, though? It would be weird if you had to go repair your +5 sword after a few battles.

I think it should break down because it's getting hit and when things get hit enough they break.
Also you should be able to magic the equipment to be harder to break

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I feel that campaign clocks overall make games much more interesting. See the earlier Atelier games like the Dusk series, where you have a three year time limit to beat the story. Gathering ore or flowers, crafting an item, or moving one node on the world map causes time to advance by one day. The main character has no native abilities and thus all of her capabilities come from consumable items, which you need to craft a lot of and gather a lot of mats for and travel to acquire those mats, so the deadline is counting down fast. There is also a monthly market at one of the cities that sells special items you don't want to miss and only lasts for a few days. So you have to do some planning on how you are going to proceed or path to main story objectives while also gathering and crafting along the way. That's just one example. There are other games like Majora's Mask or FF13 Lightning Returns with time limits. Or strategy games like The Banner Saga or certain Mount & Blade modules where an apocalypse will occur by X date so you are rushing to prepare or beat the game by then. Even if the game is balanced so that you can still comfortably beat it within the time limit, the very presence of just makes you sit up in your chair and think about what you are doing more and adds tension to the experience.

[Demonic Fate]

When my shield gets struck square in the middle by an ogre's greataxe and keeps working at 100% efficiency:

When my character gets struck square in the middle by an ogre's greataxe and keeps fighting at 100% efficiency:

[TKVNC]

Something that seems to have largely disappeared from newer RPGs is equipment durability. I suspect how these minor mechanics get removed is someone suggests it's minor, just a nuisance("go and repair the item at the blacksmith"), etc., without realizing the implication it has on grounding the game in the gameworld.
After finishing a dungeon or going on an exploration, my gear should be in tatters. This makes it a very good part of any well-designed attrition system(which tends to be lacking altogether now)

I guess as far as modern games go I'll give some credit to BG3 for at least making your characters visibly dirty, bloody, etc., Probably doesn't go far enough because they want characters to look 'cinematic' or whatever. No durability system tho! 5e apparently doesn't have any durability rules(optional?)

KCD did an ok job with this. Mud, blood, bruises and visibly damaged gear.

It's not just for immersion, it's also to facilitate immersive gameplay. When you have to worry about gear breaking - you must plan ahead.

It's also why fast travel ******* sucks.

[J1M]

I agree some sort of resource management should be in place to create a gameplay loop that involves returning to civilization. I find something like healing surges to be more compelling than equipment repairs, in part because it applies more evenly across character classes. (How often does a wizard repair his stave?)

I'm fine with game design reasons for gold sinks, returning to town, switching equipment, resource management, etc. An argument from a "realism" perspective doesn't land with me. The level of crafting expertise games allow players to obtain squarely puts equipment maintenance in the same category as going to the bathroom and is something that can be safely assumed to be taking place off camera.

If this is a simulationist argument then I will point out that the inventory size and weight allowance for inventories is a lot more pressing of a concern than equipment durability. The idea that someone can carry around three hundred pounds and still fight effectively is a strange oversight.

[rusty_shackleford]

Having to scrap guns for parts is one of the best ideas Bethesda added to FO3
Perhaps only

[Valter]

Having to scrap guns for parts is one of the best ideas Bethesda added to FO3
Perhaps only

I still look back fondly on Fallout New Vegas' equipment management system. Scrap equipment and ammunition, modify weapons, it was so cool. Immersion++++

[Oyster Sauce]

Need a game that has you wear a backup set of gear you gotta rotate because it takes time to repair your equipment and you don't want to walk around with armor

In KA:KT it takes a mission for armor/weapons to be upgraded in the forge. You can use backup gear or just another guy while you wait.

[NotAI]

The problem with durability is that it's often implemented poorly. E.g., (a) without any way to fix items that broke (b) durability degrades too fast.

Meaning that it reduces the incentives to explore and find "super powerful" unique gear. (Player uses it three times, it breaks, player must throw it away or get it fixed every 10 minutes. Not fun.)

[Norfleet]

Something that seems to have largely disappeared from newer RPGs is equipment durability. I suspect how these minor mechanics get removed is someone suggests it's minor, just a nuisance("go and repair the item at the blacksmith"), etc., without realizing the implication it has on grounding the game in the gameworld.

Gear wear only makes sense when it actually has relevance to the game's economy. Otherwise, yes, it's just irritating busywork. If I have to go the blacksmith and click the "repair all" button, or worse, individually hammer every single piece, this is just pointless busywork. The cost of doing so is nearly always irrelevant.

Where gear durability and damage would actually MATTER is in a game where things are PRODUCED. Part of what drives weird economics in games is that things are endlessly produced, but pretty much nothing is actually consumed, so the amount of gear piles up, resulting in the best items still being hella rare due to being produced through RNG drop mechanics and every other piece of **** item piles up, resulting in them being functionally worthless to the richest portion of the playerbase, so if it's not best in slot, it's worthless trash. But even then, if gear durability is just "click hammer and maybe pay worthless coins, make problem go away", nothing changes.

When my shield gets struck square in the middle by an ogre's greataxe and keeps working at 100% efficiency:

When my character gets struck square in the middle by an ogre's greataxe and keeps fighting at 100% efficiency:

Bothersome gear durability would see players going about in nothing but a bikini or a furry loincloth because then you don't have any gear that needs repairing.

[WrenchWring]

When you can simply click the fast travel button to get back to the blacksmith, then hit the repair all button to pay the blacksmith a pittance to repair everything, then fast travel back to the dungeon, equipment durability adds nothing but additional clicking between fights. Equipment durability needs travel to be a commitment to add value to the game. There has to be something like survival mechanics or cost of travel supplies so your equipment losing durability becomes an interesting choice; do you go back to town to get it fixed, or see the dungeon through with substandard gear and get it repaired later, or perhaps your character can repair it themselves with supplies and skill. If there's no interesting choice to be made regarding equipment durability, it's a meaningless nothing mechanic that does not justify its existence.

[Oyster Sauce]

When you can simply click the fast travel button to get back to the blacksmith, then hit the repair all button to pay the blacksmith a pittance to repair everything, then fast travel back to the dungeon, equipment durability adds nothing but additional clicking between fights.

ok sure but you're already playing a stinker of a game if you can do that

[rusty_shackleford]

When you can simply click the fast travel button to get back to the blacksmith, then hit the repair all button to pay the blacksmith a pittance to repair everything, then fast travel back to the dungeon, equipment durability adds nothing but additional clicking between fights.

It being there still adds something.
Not that I disagree with your point, but all these little things add up. It reminds you that your character is wearing gear which does degrade.

If there's no interesting choice to be made r

As I pointed out earlier, not everything needs to be an "interesting choice" — most things aren't.

Sort of like how naming your character has become unpopular and instead you get called by a title or similar. Just little things that keep getting stripped away which detach you from the game. Of course naming your character isn't a meaningful or interesting choice. But it reminds you that it's your character every time you see the name used.

[rusty_shackleford]

I could write an article on the importance of things that aren't important. I should. I'd need to collect references…

[WrenchWring]

As I pointed out earlier, not everything needs to be an "interesting choice" — most things aren't.

Game mechanics absolutely do have to justify their own existence because there is a mechanical burden on the player to learn them. If the player invests time and effort into learning a mechanic only to wind up realizing it is hollow and empty, that's a kind of betrayal. Players lose a bit of trust in the developer, in the DM, every time they invest part of themselves into caring about a mechanic only to find out that it's meaningless busywork. Pretty scenery doesn't have to present interesting choices because you don't have to put any effort into enjoying it.

Sort of like how naming your character has become unpopular and instead you get called by a title or similar. Just little things that keep getting stripped away which detach you from the game. Of course naming your character isn't a meaningful or interesting choice. But it reminds you that it's your character every time you see the name used.

Nah, that one's just because of voice acting. Paying voice actors to read every name in the baby book in every possible intonation just for the player to name their character something you didn't record anyway is a huge waste of money. I expect we'll see NPCs addressing you by your name again once on-the-fly AI voice acting gets good enough to be indistinguishable from real humans.

[rusty_shackleford]

Game mechanics absolutely do have to justify their own existence

They don't. They can just be cool and exist because that's something that happens in the game world. Games used to do this all the time and they were a lot better for it. This was before everything was broken down and over-analyzed into "game mechanics".

Why can you ask characters questions in Fallout using a text parser?
Well, why not?

Having ambition far larger than some guy creating a list of "reasons" for parts of a game to exist is really cool actually. They made an entire game like this called "Arcanum", it's pretty well liked for its ambition.

"Why does armor need repaired?"
Because it gets hit during combat. I think it's a pretty good idea that it probably should break eventually.
"Does it serve a mechanical purpose?"
It could! But it's cool that the game acknowledges your armor isn't indestructible.


You can just add things to games that you think are cool. Not everything is a "mechanic" that needs to be "learned"

[Tangerine]

Game mechanics absolutely do have to justify their own existence because there is a mechanical burden on the player to learn them.

A mechanic having a reason to exist and it being an "interesting choice" are not one and the same. Equipment durability may seem like meaningless busywork to you, but it's something that makes the game world feel more real to someone else, which justifies its existence.

[Tweed]

Some mods for Anomaly take it to the next level and overall it handled gear durability pretty well. There's an assortment of different repair items for different levels of durability. The lower the durability goes on any given piece of gear, the harder it is to fix. If you can stop to apply stitches or duct tape to armor, or some gun oil to your weapon, then you can stave off disaster. Thing is that all those repair items take up more weight and space and it costs a load of money to pay to get a wrecked piece of gear fixed.

However, you can also disassemble similar guns and pieces of armor into individual parts and repair those parts with entirely different kinds of repair equipment, I.E. take the receiver from one rifle that isn't completely ruined and fix it up to put into another gun. It can get a bit complicated and sometimes it's the only way to get the kind of rifle you really want. I had to take a broken down ak-101 or whatever it was and scavenge parts for it over time because I couldn't find the model I wanted on any of the merchants.

[rusty_shackleford]

Nah, that one's just because of voice acting. Paying voice actors to read every name in the baby book in every possible intonation just for the player to name their character something you didn't record anyway is a huge waste of money. I expect we'll see NPCs addressing you by your name again once on-the-fly AI voice acting gets good enough to be indistinguishable from real humans.

They used to let you name your character all the time in voice acted games, by the way. They just didn't use it in the voiced lines, it would show up in the text.
Even arguably some of the most pop-a-mole movie game RPGs used to let you do it: