What can be done to revive the MMO genre? Can it be revived? Is there any hope?

[Oyster Sauce]

In your dreams. Those who say mmos are dead are just suckers who cant commit to an mmos which require time to play.

https://www.gamespot.com/gallery/top-20 ... 2900-6301/

Two of the most popular games on steam are recent mmorpgs.

11. New World: Aeternum – 913,634
Record achieved on October 3, 2021.

[Yankee Zulu]

And? None of the games on the list have that peak online anymore. You are not making any sense as always. Typical for a vagina or someone pretending to be a vagina i.e. ******.

[Oyster Sauce]

And? None of the games on the list have that peak online anymore. You are not making any sense as always. Typical for a vagina or someone pretending to be a vagina i.e. ******.

:weeb:

[Xenich]

Grafix looks fine to me.
Bad performance is not ok tho

Yeah, if it plays poorly, that is a big no no. Not sure what they have said concerning optimization as of yet, so I still don't know what where they are at concerning it. Though I think the play you see there is the stress tests they have been doing every so often.

[Xenich]

how does a game that looks this **** have this sort of fps performance btw

Yeah, not sure what is the issue, but... it is a stress test. The video talked about some issues here and there. I don't know how they approach optimization, they may do basic iterations on that front and then plan to attack it more heavily nearing release (Vanguard's botched release was due to them backloading optimization and being forced to release a year early by MS and not having the time to get that ironed out completely before it was pushed out).

As for graphics, looks fine for me. World has a consistent look and feel. Seeing the mount in the video bugs the **** out of me though. Mounts are a unique problem with this style of game. If they go the EQ route in design, it won't be an issue as mounts were not a run speed solution, rather a means for casters to continue to med without "sitting down". If Mounts are a run speed solution it creates problems as they ultimately end up eliminating world travel speed over time and they take away the unique benefits of classes concerning travel.

[GhostCow]

Asian MMOs are awful grindfest games and no one likes them but Asians and *******

[Xenich]

Asian MMOs are awful grindfest games and no one likes them but Asians and *******

The Asian MMOs were always far more grind focused than western ones though. I was completely fine with EQs grind, but then tried out some Asian ones and it was like night and day in how much grinding they wanted done compared to the amount of reward you got from it. It was like Asian MMOs were designed by micro transaction companies.

[rusty_shackleford]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

[Oyster Sauce]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

Don't Asian MMOs have built in autoplay features now?

[rusty_shackleford]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

Don't Asian MMOs have built in autoplay features now?

yea but that's gay bugman ****, it's stupid when it's actually builtin

[Demonic Fate]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

xenich: "I've been getting into running and I've been doing some 5Ks, but honestly longer runs are a bit of a slog and I find them exhausting"

rusty: "here's the secret to enjoy running: call a taxi"

[WhiteShark]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

xenich: "I've been getting into running and I've been doing some 5Ks, but honestly longer runs are a bit of a slog and I find them exhausting"

rusty: "here's the secret to enjoy running: call a taxi"

Rusty has previously advocated for allowing cars in footraces.

[Demonic Fate]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

xenich: "I've been getting into running and I've been doing some 5Ks, but honestly longer runs are a bit of a slog and I find them exhausting"

rusty: "here's the secret to enjoy running: call a taxi"

Rusty has previously advocated for allowing cars in footraces.

Not beating the untermensch allegations

[rusty_shackleford]

here's the secret to playing Asian MMOs: everyone bots
you're welcome

xenich: "I've been getting into running and I've been doing some 5Ks, but honestly longer runs are a bit of a slog and I find them exhausting"

rusty: "here's the secret to enjoy running: call a taxi"

Rusty has previously advocated for allowing cars in footraces.

whiteshark upon finding out that david brought a sling to a duel to overcome his innate weakness and therefore defeated the physically superior goliath

[Norfleet]

[anvi]

MMOs got such a bad reputation they probably shouldn't be revived. I want games like that but it needs a new name, and a reset in design philosophy. They need to go back to trying to make the best MUDs in a 3D form. Not trying to make a gay candyland cash shop.

Also EQ at the time was like mind blowing to people. Way ahead of what people thought games could be. It required a 3D graphics card that only real gamers had, and internet connection, good PC. But it looked and sounded amazing and was a huge game. I saw a blog post from Brad McQuaid (RIP) who was talking about this time one time. He said WoW has raised the bar so high in terms of production values, and it also has a decade of content... He said the only way a company could come along and compete with a game like that would be if they had a 1 billion dollar budget.

I get what he was saying and agree if you were to make an alternative to WoW it probably would take that. But you could make a new EQ at a fraction of that price and it could be super popular and profitable, then grow it from there. To really revive MMOs though I think they need to die and come back in another form.

I ideally wanted it to split into multiple directions. Like, none of them are really "Massive". By 90s standards it was pretty massive, instead of 32 players in a Quake server we got 2000 players on an EQ server. But it was a server farm, and those players weren't all together in the same place, they are spread through a world. It was mostly a group game, playing with 5 other people. The only massive parts were raids which were a shitshow. So I figure there should be some games with huge battles, 100+ and NPCs all fighting in big wars and things. I've seen a few games that look like that, I have zero interest in them though. Call that MMOs.

Then another spinoff which avoids the MMO side and makes just finely tuned group content for groups of 5 or 6 people. And instead of all the MMO ****, you just login to a chatroom like in Command & Conquer or whatever. Talk **** to people while your server is filling up and then the game starts. They could perfect group based RPG combat, how to make it exciting and deep and interesting. Call that group based online RPGs.

And then an actual RPG that you play with other real people in the world, like EQ, but improved. Call it an Online RPG. No baggage. Not expected to have big raids, and not everything should need a group. Just play like Skyrim or something and meet other people as you go. That's what early EQ was like before it became autismquest. But ideally the "group based online RPGs" should have experimented with combat enough for this game to copy from them.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Not trying to make a gay candyland cash shop.

Any live service game needs new content coming out regularly to maintain audience interest, let alone grow it. No new content = people get bored and leave = eventually you have no one left to play with. New content coming out regular = you need to retain devs on payroll to produce it. How do you suggest you devs procure that money? Games with high production values like WoW/FF14 can charge monthly subscriptions, and those 3D Chinese gachas and Call of Duty/Fortnite games can charge optional monthly subscriptions/"battle passes". But big companies aren't greenlighting MMOs anymore (unless you are NCsoft greenlighting a Guild Wars 3 which is AFAIK the only MMO on the horizon that will have a bigger budget than dead kickstarter slop), so do you think a smaller game could scrape buy charging a monthly sub? If not, then what are the alternatives? Making people buy a box every year? Making people pay for new features like account wide banks (in which case the devs are incentivized to parcel out features one by one)? Or... loathe am I to say it... cash shops?

I ideally wanted it to split into multiple directions. Like, none of them are really "Massive". By 90s standards it was pretty massive, instead of 32 players in a Quake server we got 2000 players on an EQ server. But it was a server farm, and those players weren't all together in the same place, they are spread through a world. It was mostly a group game, playing with 5 other people. The only massive parts were raids which were a shitshow. So I figure there should be some games with huge battles, 100+ and NPCs all fighting in big wars and things. I've seen a few games that look like that, I have zero interest in them though. Call that MMOs.

Then another spinoff which avoids the MMO side and makes just finely tuned group content for groups of 5 or 6 people. And instead of all the MMO ****, you just login to a chatroom like in Command & Conquer or whatever. Talk **** to people while your server is filling up and then the game starts. They could perfect group based RPG combat, how to make it exciting and deep and interesting. Call that group based online RPGs.

Even if you don't have 100+ people all doing the same dungeon together simultaneously, the large player count is necessary for that feeling that you are in a simulation of a virtual world, that there are other agents with free will going around and doing things just like you. Skyrim is immersive but does not feel truly alive like an MMO because you are the only character running off the beaten path, running around shopping before heading out, scoping out places, fighting through dungeons, etc. Every NPC attempt at it feels fake rather than real. And those other players, you can actually talk to those adventurers and maybe work with them... or get shrugged off, or even incur their ire somehow, which again makes the world feel more real than if you were clicking through scripts. Same reason why you need to buy ammo for your gun, or fish food to feed your pet, or stock up on invisibility powders and teleportation scrolls. Is it as fun of a game? No, but does it enhance the feeling of being in a fantasy world? Yes, which is why it is necessary.

[anvi]

I never thought people quitting was an issue. I mean people buy most games and play it for 30 hours or whatever and then it's done. I always thought it was bad that MMOs had a requirement to go on and on forever. I would like it if it was possible, and EQ kind of did it. But the quality dropped a lot from them trying to mass produce content and them focusing on keeping people hooked and buying each new expansion, at the expense of the integrity of the original game world.

It could be better to just have a game that is a great tuned experience. It lasts about 6 months and then you are done and move on. That way new players will come to it steadily. EQ ended up pandering to the high level addicted fans and they neglected the rest of the game. Which meant new players stopped joining, and those who did had a bad time. Was it more profitable to string along their existing players? Or would it be more profitable to have just polished the original game and had it as a slick experience for all new players who come and play? I always thought the latter would be better.

An ever growing game could work with a subscription though. EQ just done better. I agree having real people in the world makes it feel more alive than a single player game. I'd like to see it done in different ways though. I like the idea of starting solo and then you go to a tavern and find other players like in LOTR or something. Maybe find a notice board with jobs on it. I really wanted these games to be more natural, immersive, realistic. Less game and more of an online world.

[Kriptini]

Monsters & Memories just concluded their July open playtest. Here's a link to the numbers if you're into stats. Here's the highlight:



The game is VERY fun. If were a fan of Everquest, you absolutely need to play this. Grouping feels as meaningful as it did back in the day and people actually talk to each other in-game, which makes it feel way more social than almost any other contemporary MMORPG experience. That being said, if you weren't a fan of the original Everquest, you might want to wait for more updates before you jump in - the new player experience is very rough for people who don't have an innate sense of curiosity about mechanics or for people who can't be bothered to RTFM.

The next open playtest runs from September 1st to September 7th.

[anvi]

Glad to see it doing well. I read somewhere that some of the classes are not done yet and some of the ones that are mostly done seem a bit basic. People were trying to work out if it was just because they are low level and they wanted to reach a level where they get some new key spells/abilities. But some people didn't want to spend too much time on it when it will be wiped.

I think if they keep adding to it I will give it a shot, once it is released.

[Kriptini]

Glad to see it doing well. I read somewhere that some of the classes are not done yet and some of the ones that are mostly done seem a bit basic. People were trying to work out if it was just because they are low level and they wanted to reach a level where they get some new key spells/abilities. But some people didn't want to spend too much time on it when it will be wiped.

I think if they keep adding to it I will give it a shot, once it is released.

Right now, most non-spellcasters get their final ability around level 10 and most spellcasters get their final unique ability around level 26. (They still gain more abilities every four levels, but they are upgrades of existing abilities because their abilities do not have built-in scaling like non-spellcasters do). The class lead is going to be fleshing out some of the more barebones classes between now and the next test (Archer specifically), but I wouldn't expect non-spellcaster classes to get too many more abilities. The game is intentionally designed to have low-APM combat, and too many abilities could complicate that. It's reasonable to expect that most non-caster classes won't get too many more abilities beyond what they already have, and spellcasters will probably get more niche spells, but their "core" spells seem already done.

[Ranselknulf]

I think the concept of a WoW type game with millions of people playing is essentially dead, at least in terms of fantasy or terrestrial based gameplay. It will live on in the tier of mobile gaming and the like, but as an actual game with mechanics, beyond just collecting skins and cool looking armor, its dead.

Space based games could feasibly have millions of players simultaneously because of the size and scope of, well space. Although, to pull off something like that there would have to be an interest in the genre, which really doesn't exist currently. Kind of a digression, but when the economy is bad, and people constantly feel broke, they tend to look backwards in history with nostalgia. So fantasy games will do better over the next few years in general. My perspective at least, but seems to be borne out by the lack of decent science fiction and space mmo/multiplayer games currently coming out.

MMO's are still relevant in terms of private servers and more curated gaming experiences, which I'm starting to appreciate more. Smaller servers, but still massive. Find a rule-set or challenge mode you enjoy and play it out.

Anvi said something similar in his last few posts, but this is my addition to his comments.

I like the idea of being able to influence the game world by being a paypig and funding a smaller world for the gamestyle I enjoy. Doesn't bother me if others get to play for free or not.

[Norfleet]

Kind of a digression, but when the economy is bad, and people constantly feel broke, they tend to look backwards in history with nostalgia. So fantasy games will do better over the next few years in general. My perspective at least, but seems to be borne out by the lack of decent science fiction and space mmo/multiplayer games currently coming out.

But on the other hand, if you start making a fantasy game now, it won't come out for another 6-8 years, and by then, who knows what people will be after. Also, the nature of an MMO is that it tends to run for a long time. After all, WoW's been going for like 25 years. So I would not chase the fantasy vs. sci-fi train based just on this line of thinking. Especially since fantasy is terribly oversaturated.

[Ranselknulf]

There's technical challenges to space based games also that will probably not be resolved until the lolquantum computers meme becomes a reality.

You've probably read the stories of the massive EvE battles where they slowed down the speed of time (time dilation) because the servers couldn't handle all the data and actions occurring at the same time.

And that game was essentially just spreadsheets in space. Now imagine with modern unoptimized games that are bloated beyond anything necessary and add in modern graphics and other nonsense.

A playable, engaging, functional and responsive MMO is not happening until computers are much better. I played another attempt at a modern space mmo not too long ago, and it went into a death spiral because of the server costs. Basically, players couldn't play the game at full capacity because of the servers. So the company nerfed some of the game play actions to help speed things up, which caused players to quit and lost revenue, so the company downgraded the servers which then meant they had to nerf more combat and crafting options, and well more players quit. The cycle repeated a few times, and I don't see any reason it wouldn't be the same for another mmo.

The technical challenges are the same for any other space mmo trying to be "massive". With current tech, server costs will be so high upfront just to make a playable game that can accept hundreds of thousands or millions of players that it would have to be funded by a huge company. Even then, its not guaranteed that the players will show up. Huge companies have much less risk simply recycling fantasy assets into "new" games and changing just enough to keep people from getting annoyed at the repetition. From a business standpoint, I doubt any major companies will be able to pull it off. Small companies and indies will continue to try and fail.

[Norfleet]

There's technical challenges to space based games also that will probably not be resolved until the lolquantum computers meme becomes a reality.

You've probably read the stories of the massive EvE battles where they slowed down the speed of time (time dilation) because the servers couldn't handle all the data and actions occurring at the same time.

This is an effect totally unrelated to "being in space", though. Basically ANY game with a huge number of players will eventually hit this effect. Most other games just restrict how many players can be in the area at a time to a level that prevents this.

And that game was essentially just spreadsheets in space. Now imagine with modern unoptimized games that are bloated beyond anything necessary and add in modern graphics and other nonsense.

Graphics play little role here since graphics aren't "real" and only occur clientside. Therefore, the load of graphical rendering is entirely borne by the client and has no impact on anyone else as the server doesn't see any of it. And in any event, space games are some of the LEAST graphically demanding games out there. When you're on the ground, you have to render the ground, all the little people in highly polygonious people-shaped blobs with their flappy bits and clothes as they jump, run, and wave their arms. Spaceships, in contrast, are constructed low-poly objects characterized by very simple lines and curves, with relatively few moving parts. You can't make a thousand-polygon person look particularly good. A thousand polygons for a SPACESHIP, on the other hand, can be quite decent. In fact, there are spaceships out there that can be rendered quite well with only 12 polys or less.

The technical challenges are the same for any other space mmo trying to be "massive". With current tech, server costs will be so high upfront just to make a playable game that can accept hundreds of thousands or millions of players that it would have to be funded by a huge company.

This does not explain why you believe the issue is somehow linked to being a "space" game and not a "swordguy" game. Why do you believe "space" somehow has unique issues in this regard?

[Tweed]

Wake me when they stop focusing on the absolute worst aspects of EQ like I'm supposed to want to do all of that **** again and pay money for it.

[Ranselknulf]

There's technical challenges to space based games also that will probably not be resolved until the lolquantum computers meme becomes a reality.

You've probably read the stories of the massive EvE battles where they slowed down the speed of time (time dilation) because the servers couldn't handle all the data and actions occurring at the same time.

This is an effect totally unrelated to "being in space", though. Basically ANY game with a huge number of players will eventually hit this effect. Most other games just restrict how many players can be in the area at a time to a level that prevents this.

And that game was essentially just spreadsheets in space. Now imagine with modern unoptimized games that are bloated beyond anything necessary and add in modern graphics and other nonsense.

Graphics play little role here since graphics aren't "real" and only occur clientside. Therefore, the load of graphical rendering is entirely borne by the client and has no impact on anyone else as the server doesn't see any of it. And in any event, space games are some of the LEAST graphically demanding games out there. When you're on the ground, you have to render the ground, all the little people in highly polygonious people-shaped blobs with their flappy bits and clothes as they jump, run, and wave their arms. Spaceships, in contrast, are constructed low-poly objects characterized by very simple lines and curves, with relatively few moving parts. You can't make a thousand-polygon person look particularly good. A thousand polygons for a SPACESHIP, on the other hand, can be quite decent. In fact, there are spaceships out there that can be rendered quite well with only 12 polys or less.

The technical challenges are the same for any other space mmo trying to be "massive". With current tech, server costs will be so high upfront just to make a playable game that can accept hundreds of thousands or millions of players that it would have to be funded by a huge company.

This does not explain why you believe the issue is somehow linked to being a "space" game and not a "swordguy" game. Why do you believe "space" somehow has unique issues in this regard?

The majority of mechanics in MMOs that are fantasy are on flat and level ground (there might be a hill ok).

This allows for simplified encounter mechanics and calculations.

[Norfleet]

The majority of mechanics in MMOs that are fantasy are on flat and level ground (there might be a hill ok).

I wouldn't say that. Fantasy MMOs are often characterized by things like "barricades" ,"walls", "trenches", and other obstacles that break line of sight and fire. They jump, they fall, they collide with complex barriers (and the ground), which is rarely these days perfectly flat, but tends to be rolling to some degree. Dealing with the kinematics of a ground-based actor is actually FAR more complicated than dealing with a spaceship.

Space, on the other hand, is empty, and therefore, LOS and collision checks are often trivial to nonexistent because the only major obstacles tend to be large spheres, and the number of actual visible/interactable polygons is pretty much restricted to the entities themselves, with very little in the way of terrain to be seen. Consider: The first flight simulator (1929) was developed before computers were even a thing, while the first driving simulator actually licensed the tech of a flight simulator, and the first infantry simulator didn't happen until decades more later.

[Lancaster]

Lotro was good up until the implementation of real life currency, but that wasn't the only thing to contribute to it's decline in quality.

[TKVNC]

Lotro was good up until the implementation of real life currency, but that wasn't the only thing to contribute to it's decline in quality.

It's also what ruined WoW, and many others. RMT actively kills games.