Final Fantasy VII Rebirth

[rusty_shackleford]

The problem was they called it a remake. I don't know what their thought process of doing that was, maybe they wanted to hold off on spoiling that it's not a remake but a new entry in the FF7 series?

[ArcaneLurker]

Great video

It's really insane how much skilled labour, in terms of those doing the modelling, animations & technical work for the visual fidelity, is being used for such **** writing & art direction.
The result of an improper hierarchy of people.

There was no writing to be done to begin with, the story was already written 28 years ago. All they needed to do was update the graphics and the direction, and enhance the turn-based gameplay. That’s it.

It was literally easy money and yet, somehow, they still managed to fail at such a simple task.

A good writer, that appreciated the source material, would have known what not to change, you still need a writer even when remaking things.
There were some key figures at Square that were actually embarrassed by their own past work, in a very woke way, which just goes to show how autists can have their minds buckbroken over 30 years.

[rusty_shackleford]

Remakes are inherently a broken idea: good games don't need remakes unless they were made in an era where UI/UX were still trying to figure basic things out. Very few games past ~1996 or so benefit from a remake. Remaster to improve technical issues? Sure.
I want to see some remakes of games that were ambitious but commercial failures.

[KOS-MOS]

I honestly think it all came down to the inflated egos of some people in SE who thought they could "improve" a masterpiece by "modernizing" it and in doing so, completely distorted the original story, adding pointless and absurd elements that didn’t need to exist.

On top of that, the whole execution has a Marvel-like tone, with Sephiroth reduced to a cheap gimmick, popping up like a bad jump scare for no real reason.

The iconic musics have been replaced with an unlistenable mess, turning once legendary scenes and locations into something almost laughable.

The emotional weight and tragedy of key moments have been sucked dry, leaving us with a game that feels like just another generic Hollywood production.

I genuinely believe they thought they were more talented than they actually are, trying to twist a legendary game into their own vision, which ultimately amounts to a lot of noise covering up the lack of meaningful changes.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I agree that the cartoony tone and directing of the remake series was inappropriate for the aesthetics and feel of the world. But I do not think it should have been a 1 to 1 "faithful" remake. A remake is an opportunity to improve a game. The fun in the PS1 Final Fantasy games is frontloaded on the first discs (or first two discs in FF9's case). It is when you are on rails and you are constantly being swept from setpiece to setpiece and exploring these baroque looking crazy fantasy cities/kingdoms which then explode as you escape at the last second. After the first disc, you get let loose out into the open world, and you are meandering around a boring world with not much urgency, and crazy stuff isn't happening anywhere near as frequently, you aren't discovering new amazing looking cities anymore, etc. Nobody's favorite part of FF7 is meandering around aimlessly in disc 2. When people think of FF7, they think of the cool dieselpunk dystopia on disc 1.

The FF7 remake series was an opportunity to fix this, namely by making it more interesting after leaving Midgar. If part 2 had been about going to the crazy visually spectacular oriental kingdom of Wutai (upgraded from just being one small settlement) with cool fantasy forests and mystical creatures everywhere, and you side with them to form an army of cool samurai and summoners and geomancers and beastmasters and etc to fight the invading Midgar army and their crazy cool mechas, you could have recaptured that high octane spectacle experience of the PS1 FF games. Imagine the Battle of Geonosis, but Final Fantasy. But instead Rebirth is just meandering aimlessly around a boring world, just like in the original disc 2.




But the remake series also suffers from bloat on the microlevel where each scene and dialogue takes 10x longer than it should. There is a lot of repetitive conversations where characters discuss the same information that we discussed two times earlier. The remake series also feels that it has to spoonfeed you every detail, whereas the original game was okay with glossing over or just hinting at stuff and moving on, which made the original faster paced and more mysterious.

[weaselus]

This is a personal review of FF7 REMAKE, not REBIRTH.

There does not seem to be a topic for REMAKE; if it exists, I apologize for misplacing the post.

Disclaimer: only played through the game until before the second reactor (Crab military platform boss). Took about ten hours.

Disclaimer 2: never played past the original's Junon Town (About ten hours as well). Loved every second and consider FF7 one of the few monumental achievements in gaming, although FF8 is probably better. In my records, Fallout 1, 2, FF7, and FF8 are stupendous.

---

Without further ado, in my not-so-humble opinion, FF7 Remake is a contender for best JRPG of all time, and also for best video game of all time, against rivals like Ninja Gaiden (Black) and Berwick Saga. Fallout 1 and 2 are not this good.

Disclaimer 3: I modded FF7 Remake with a voluptuous Tifa with a Caucasian face (how she came off to me in the PS1 version).
This was integral to my enjoyment of the game.

The default Remake Tifa model is a DEI Asian runt (massively well known Japanese porn star, without the porn star's outstanding body) with nerfed proportions and, dare I say, reduces whatever the game's final score is by five levels.

So if FF7 Remake is a 10/10 with the original designs, the gypsy Tifa alone brings it down to a 5/10, and I am not surprised people panned the remake. (Gypsy Jessie is unpleasant also. Her motion capture is of a very attractive woman,( e.g. her running scenes), but the in-game model has a homely mystery meat look.)

Cloud also needs a more aggressive haircut in line with the original design (spiky-haired protagonist, not Japanese emo bar host). Modded that in.

FF7 Remake Aerith is also terrible. The face they chose ALWAYS looks like it is a transsexual's, and frequently projects the piercing stare of a male. I will mod that out when she appears.

Takeaway: modelers really dropped the ball on the faces of all love interests - most likely under intense pressure from the DEI unit at Square Enix. As I am writing this, it dawns on me that they nerfed Jessie's design, too, since her character designer is known for his gorgeous women, e.g. in Final Fantasy Type Zero. I can imagine successive meetings where the current design is not "inclusive enough," dropping the in-game model's looks from 10, to 9, to 8, to 6.

By contrast, as seen before in "gems" such as Mass Effect Andromeda, the male cast have not been tampered with and are exceptionally handsome. Barrett is as attractive as his demographic allows - about as good as it gets with his genetic background. Twinky Cloud is a Japanese preference that I can tolerate, and also fits FF7's story as he is a boy-man that young audiences can identify with.

(Aside: in footage of FF7 Rebirth, it appears to me that Cloud's face was subtly changed to be more feminine and Asian. Gross pandering.)

---

So, the casting process of FF7 Remake terribly miscast all heroines. The player base required apex females (one of FF7s original selling points) and got mids instead. The "Male Gaze" is unceasingly, relentlessly irritated by the plainness of what is on offer. "Tifa is homely; Tifa is homely; Tifa is homely; Tifa is homely; Aerith is a Karen; Aerith is a Karen; Aerith is a man; Aerith is a man", whispers the heart.

I believe my fellow players' instincts were just as offended as mine, and that is five to ten million sales lost. Gacha players should have gobbled this, had it shipped with appropriately beautiful, 10/10 designs.

With properly modded main characters, the rest of the game is mostly just as inspired as the original. It is not an exact duplicate, but then FF7 is not my life; I just enjoy the imagination that went into the franchise.

And the script. The script is the best RPG script ever. It is fully polished by Hollywood standards and craftsmanship (such as it was a long time ago). The moment-to-moment wordplay is something unseen.

Use English voices because there are frequent simultaneous conversations. The localizers nailed the delivery, and it is a worthy variant of the original Japanese.

RPG writing, even it the most beloved games, is lacking. Not so with FF7 Remake. It is on a different level than Knights of the Old Republic or Planescape Torment. The guys who wrote those were amateurs.

(Skipping discussion of how the word counts compare. Here we have fewer lines that are better written and acted.)
---

So, for people born before 1989, I felt the same exhilaration throughout "Final Fantasy 7 Remake" as I did when watching Commando (1986).

Exhilaration? From a video game?

Verdict: Top-two single-player experience of all time; tied for first place with Berwick Saga.

[methoxetamine]

never played past the original's Junon Town (About ten hours as well). Loved every second and consider FF7 one of the few monumental achievements in gaming

What the **** are you doing? Go actually finish FF7

[methoxetamine]

**** I made that post before reading any further. This is a certifiably batshit insane post. FF7 Remake is a piece of ****, calling it a contender as the best JRPG or even game of all time is such an absolutely ****** opinion. Why are you reviewing a game you haven't finished anyway?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

**** I made that post before reading any further. This is a certifiably batshit insane post. FF7 Remake is a piece of ****, calling it a contender as the best JRPG or even game of all time is such an absolutely ****** opinion. Why are you reviewing a game you haven't finished anyway?

It might be a shitpost.

[methoxetamine]

**** I made that post before reading any further. This is a certifiably batshit insane post. FF7 Remake is a piece of ****, calling it a contender as the best JRPG or even game of all time is such an absolutely ****** opinion. Why are you reviewing a game you haven't finished anyway?

It might be a shitpost.

God I hope so

[weaselus]

**** I made that post before reading any further. This is a certifiably batshit insane post. FF7 Remake is a piece of ****, calling it a contender as the best JRPG or even game of all time is such an absolutely ****** opinion. Why are you reviewing a game you haven't finished anyway?

It might be a shitpost.

God I hope so

Really, now? I come out with a pamphlet's worth of praise for FF7R, and you first two troglodytes are accusing me of shitposting?

With single sentences not addressing any of the raised arguments?

Did you watch Idiocracy? That's you right there. "The dude talks like a *** and his ****'s all ********."

No offense taken though. To respond to your disbelief in another way, FF7's source material is as dynamite as the original Star Wars. The first part of the game in no way hinders that inspiration.

I may also be injecting the new FF7R with my understanding from the original, thereby melding the two and not considering the remake on its own legs.

[Oyster Sauce]

It might be a shitpost.

God I hope so

Really, now? I come out with a pamphlet's worth of praise for FF7R, and you first two troglodytes are accusing me of shitposting?

You literally didn't mention the gameplay even one single time. All you talked about was modding it to jerk off to the characters.

[weaselus]

Gameplay is better than in the original. It is more complex and requires (some) tactical thinking.

I concede that having to swing a massive sword 80 times to defeat a rat is ridiculous.

Oversights like this are one typical reason Japanese are not honorary Aryans.

In high-production-value JRPGs, gameplay should be "good enough".

Also, before we continue the discussion, please give an example of what you consider "top-notch gameplay".

In my opinion, most videogames have boring gameplay, so that is not a mark against FF7 (either old or new).

By way of contrast, Skyrim and its predecessors had TERRIBLE combat. FF7 is much more mechanically and tactically complex.

[Oyster Sauce]

In high-production-value movie games, gameplay should not get in the way of the story. Also, before we continue the discussion, please give an example of what you consider "top-notch gameplay".

Minecraft

[weaselus]

Minecraft's "gameplay" is so intellectually stimulating that it is considered an educational aid.

The only other "games" on that level are bona fide military simulations, which I haven't played many of other than Terminator Dark Fate Defiance. (Which feels more like work than a game.) Other RTS's need not apply.

JRPGs have to be accessible and so are fairly undemanding skill-wise. FF8 is considered obtuse but I never had a problem with it. What I have a problem with is the Capra Demon in Dark Souls.

[Oyster Sauce]

Minecraft's "gameplay" so intellectually stimulating that it is considered an educational aid.

The only other "games" on that level are bona fide military simulations, which I haven't played many of other than Terminator Dark Fate Defiance. (Which feels more like work than a game.) Other RTS's need not apply.

You're wrong

[weaselus]

Well, run-of-the mill Minecraft survival is less interesting to me than defeating siege engines in FF7R. This one is purely taste-driven so I can't speak to your preferences.

[weaselus]

Of the games you have in your signature, only Alpha Protocol and KOTOR are rivals to FF7R. And I can't endure the presentation of KOTOR anymore; it got old and died. RIP and you will be venerated.

[Cipher]

I honestly think it all came down to the inflated egos of some people in SE who thought they could "improve" a masterpiece by "modernizing" it and in doing so, completely distorted the original story, adding pointless and absurd elements that didn’t need to exist.

On top of that, the whole execution has a Marvel-like tone, with Sephiroth reduced to a cheap gimmick, popping up like a bad jump scare for no real reason.

The iconic musics have been replaced with an unlistenable mess, turning once legendary scenes and locations into something almost laughable.

The emotional weight and tragedy of key moments have been sucked dry, leaving us with a game that feels like just another generic Hollywood production.

I genuinely believe they thought they were more talented than they actually are, trying to twist a legendary game into their own vision, which ultimately amounts to a lot of noise covering up the lack of meaningful changes.

Just like there is no D&D without TSR, there is no Final Fantasy without Sakaguchi.

[weaselus]

I would go further and argue that Square Enix is not Square, and that Square's original staff lost creative control after the merger. Everything after the merger has been slop, whereas before the merger Square Co. was walking on water.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It is not my intent to "shut down" unpopular opinions. I have been on the other end of that many times. And I like different opinions that prompt discussion and analysis. But your first post came off as so peculair.

The first 2/3rds of your post was about the photorealistic characters models and how they compared to Nomura's cartoony 2D art for the first game, and other real life beauty models. I think the aesthetics of audio-visual media is under-critiqued, but you ignored all of the other visual parts like the boring boxy grey concrete tunnels or the odd background NPC design, etc. And you didn't provide example images for what you thought would have been more attractive, so I am trying mentally guesstimate what was supposed to have been better in this regard.

I do agree though that the characters generally don't look that great. Combination of too photorealistic faces and costume design and materials and the engine lighting and colors. FF13's characters looked better. The Intergrade original designs of Moogle Hero Yuffie and Solon look a little better but then Rebirth is back to the boring designs.

You call it the best JRPG ever which right away is going to cause heads to turn when the game has several very common complaintd (took an action packed 5 hour long story and stretched it thin across 35 hours and injected a tremendous amount of padding. Scenes like the plate collapse are not as well executed as in the original and are less intense. No trail of blood scene. Lots of ugly tunnels. Mediocre MMO tier sidequests. Jarring stuff like dance scene. Square presenting a war story with serious aesthetics but then consistently pussying out on delievering consequences as everything bad gets pinned on Shinra, Avalanche are turned into plucky innocent good guy heroes, town is evacuated before plate collapse, Etc).

You then praise the "hollywood script", which I find to be disagreeable. The English voice acting is above average for a videogame but still not on the same level as FF12 or XBC1, and the actual scene dialogue is nowhere near as tight (again, lots of meandering filler and pointless conversations). And there is not a plethora of poginant lines like in FFT or FF9. Most of the first two discs and first few hours of FF9 are still memorable and I don't need to skim a youtube walkthrough to refresh my memory, where much of FF7R's story runtime I struggle to recall in detail.

Neither game had exemplary actual gameplay if you boil it down to the mechanics, but the turn based combat with the cool character lineup posing in front of a cool big monster design like in a manga panel, and then selecting a command and characters doing cool cutscene attacks, etc, is just cool. FF7R's action combat is not very fun or cool compared to the original or to other action games like GBF Relink. It feels clunky, not as much visual cool factor, annoying death spirals, etc.

The remake does not stand on its own legs IMO. It is an overall mediocre experience with you meandering and doing boring tedious quests for most of the game. It doesn't become tighter until the last 7 hours when you go to Shinra HQ but the filler plot and meh combat and flaccid tension continues to hold it back.

JRPGs are not "undemanding skill wise". The first two Trails of Cold Steel games on nightmare difficulty, Valkyria Chronicles 1 and 4, GBF Relink, etc require you to sit up in your chair and pay attention and their gameplay is engaging.

Sakaguuchi was not the only lead on FF. Kitase became a major leader on FF6 and was massively responsible for the shift to FF7. He helmed FF8 and FF10, and his influence is still noticeable on FF9's cinematic style borrowed from FF6 and FF7 despite it being ostensibly Sakaguuchi's project. It is by FF12 where not just Sakaguuchi, but enough of the leads are gone that it stops feeling like FF. There have still been good games from Square Enix such as FF12, FF13, FF14 up through ShB, The Last Remnant, etc.

[Tangerine]

It is not my intent to "shut down" unpopular opinions. I have been on the other end of that many times.

It's true. He thinks FFXIII is good.

I like you anyway.

[weaselus]

Thanks for the great comeback. This allows us to discuss matters of taste.

Warning: long post that touches on many topics. Requires some concentration to piece together since I can't be bothered to edit it for readability any further than I already have.

Apex female models are a must for the type of epic adventure Final Fantasy 7 is. DEI replacements mar the quality of the entire work just by being in it. I went into detail on the psychological effect they have on the player: e.g. runty Tifa is just not compelling like the original; Jesse is slightly unpleasant, and Aerith is jarringly transsexual. Maybe your ***** radar is not as good as mine; but it is a survival skill worth honing.

My argument is that the main cast alone had an outsized effect on sales and reception.

Like hiring Chris Hemsworth (a F2M transsexual) when you could have hired Val Kilmer.

Or casting Gal Gadot (another ***** and ethnic actor) as Wonder Woman instead of somebody like Lynda Carter (the previous Wonder Woman).

Who would argue that a Lynda Carter look-alike wouldn't have sold twice as many tickets as Gal Gadot ever did?

So the same psychological effect is at play with FF7R. I have never seen it discussed so I took the long-winded approach to explaining it.

I give you props for massive script counterplay with the Ivalice games. Vagrant Story and FF Tactics are probably the most polished scripts on PS1.

Note I am praising the dialog and the polish, and not the plot.

Xenoblade Chronicles 1 and Final Fantasy XII (I beat both and am particularly respectful of XBC1) are on the level of Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment.

Meaning they would not get produced as a movie without a massive rewrite by a professional.

They are amateurish.

Their style is stilted and would turn off socially savvy westerners.

"Show, don't tell" -- FF7 remake does this better than either of the above games.

The rest of your remarks on tone and atmosphere are valid and I agree that the tone is inferior to the original, again I assume due to DEI pressure.

Square Enix staff are just used to jobbing at this point. It has been more than two decades since their heyday.

With regard to mechanics, I cannot accept tactical RPGs as a valid comparison; specifically the Valkyria Series and Fire Emblem series are in a different and less popular genre that is much closer to turn-based strategy than turn-based combat in RPGs. Even something like Baldur's Gate 3 is way easier than hard classic Fire Emblem or S-ranking Valkyria Chronicles.

I take your word for the quality of nightmare mode in Trails of Cold Steel - I played on hard, but bounced due to the low production values early in 1. Falcom has always been this runty cheapskate developer to me. Mature plots do not sell well, I get it. Even if I could stomach their rudimentary engine and the bland art direction.

I haven't tried Granblue Fantasy Relink: I will check it out.

To wrap up the current post, FF7 - the original - suffers from Dark Souls syndrome, where the latter part of the game is less impressive than the introduction.

My overall thrust of argument is that I will take a (somewhat) competent high production value RPG/cutscene hybrid over most traditional cRPGs, if it is extremely inspired and can deliver Star Wars-like highs.

FF7 did that, FF8 did that, and FF7-remake did that. FF9 may have done that too, but it is not my cup of tea.

I would accuse FF12 of the things you accuse FF7-Remake of. Not the gameplay, but rather everything else.

FF13 has a female protagonist. Yuck. A special soldier, another Cloud even, down to the stoic mannerisms - but with breasts. Immersion breaking.

Mass Effect? Not as good as FF7 in my book. Like Star Trek to Star Wars, though Mass Effect 1 is Bioware magic like KoTOR before it.

Yeah, KoTOR compares - but its gameplay aged worse than FF7's, and you can't get me to play it anymore.

FF7-remake has no competition in the inspiration department, and was able to realize that inspiration sufficiently.

If I could delete single player experiences from existence one by one, the Remake would go last. I will delete Ninja Gaiden before I delete it. Only Berwick Saga will remain.

[methoxetamine]

Gameplay is better than in the original. It is more complex and requires (some) tactical thinking.

I concede that having to swing a massive sword 80 times to defeat a rat is ridiculous.

Oversights like this are one typical reason Japanese are not honorary Aryans.

In high-production-value JRPGs, gameplay should be "good enough".

Also, before we continue the discussion, please give an example of what you consider "top-notch gameplay".

In my opinion, most videogames have boring gameplay, so that is not a mark against FF7 (either old or new).

By way of contrast, Skyrim and its predecessors had TERRIBLE combat. FF7 is much more mechanically and tactically complex.

You haven't even finished either of the ******* games you ******

[weaselus]

Dude if you like Three Houses a lot, like a whole lot, you are not allowed to talk to me. The pleb section is thataway.

[Cipher]

Sakaguuchi was not the only lead on FF. Kitase became a major leader on FF6 and was massively responsible for the shift to FF7. He helmed FF8 and FF10, and his influence is still noticeable on FF9's cinematic style borrowed from FF6 and FF7 despite it being ostensibly Sakaguuchi's project. It is by FF12 where not just Sakaguuchi, but enough of the leads are gone that it stops feeling like FF. There have still been good games from Square Enix such as FF12, FF13, FF14 up through ShB, The Last Remnant, etc.

Yes, Kitase was Sakaguchi's protege. But, Kitase is heavily involved in these remakes and is on record saying that they wanted to do something different. Also, FF8 sucks and X, as much as the younglings like it, is the beginning of the end.

Hallway city, bad dialogue, cringe voice acting. All that started in X. No Uematsu soundtrack, either. He works on it but other composers also work on it and, of course, no Sakaguchi. X was in development before he left so it still has some of the magic, but FF IX is the Final Fantasy, the last one where the old guard was together to work on the series. The last soundtrack solely composed by Uematsu. XI was an MMO, XII was alright but "creative differences" made it so Matsuno left and it was finished by someone else.

Also, X-2 is a thing, which goes entirely against Sakaguchi's philosophy of "no sequels, every title must stand alone. Every title must be a FINAL fantasy". 2 years after Sakaguchi's departure, we get Advent Children, another sequel, albeit in movie form. And then the prequel, Crisis Core.

Let's be real, Final Fantasy went to **** after he left. Even Uematsu has said so in an interview. Just because a lot of people grew up with X and has nostalgia for it as their first Final Fantasy, doesn't mean its good. The same thing with the people that hail D&D 3e/3.5 as Dungeons & Dragons just because it was the first edition the played.

Wizards of the Coasts has NEVER produced D&D. Only TSR did. By the same token, Squeenix has NEVER produced Final Fantasy, it was Squaresoft under Sakaguchi.

No Sakaguchi, no Final Fantasy.

[weaselus]

As expected, this is the best board for game discussion. @Cipher thanks for the comments!

[Tangerine]

Sakaguuchi was not the only lead on FF. Kitase became a major leader on FF6 and was massively responsible for the shift to FF7. He helmed FF8 and FF10, and his influence is still noticeable on FF9's cinematic style borrowed from FF6 and FF7 despite it being ostensibly Sakaguuchi's project. It is by FF12 where not just Sakaguuchi, but enough of the leads are gone that it stops feeling like FF. There have still been good games from Square Enix such as FF12, FF13, FF14 up through ShB, The Last Remnant, etc.

Yes, Kitase was Sakaguchi's protege. But, Kitase is heavily involved in these remakes and is on record saying that they wanted to do something different. Also, FF8 sucks and X, as much as the younglings like it, is the beginning of the end.

FF9 was the last Final Fantasy and FF8 was the first Not Final Fantasy. The closest you'll get to Final Fantasy now is the Bravely Default series.

[psychic_dream]

Final faggotry was never good.

[weaselus]