We have a Steam curator now. You should be following it. https://store.steampowered.com/curator/44994899-RPGHQ/

Comparing the different business models of serialized/long running RPGs and their inherent impact on the game design

For discussing role-playing video games, you know, the ones with combat.
Ignore Topic
User avatar
Val the Moofia Boss
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 4280
Joined: Jun 3, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Comparing the different business models of serialized/long running RPGs and their inherent impact on the game design

Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

This is something I have been chewing on for a while, so I apologize if it comes off as unnecessarily indepth/verbose.

It seems like high production value box purchase RPGs have given way to live service RPGs, so I'd think it'd be neat to compare the differences and see what the inherent issues to each model are, the advantages and disadvantages, etc.

So you have an RPG story/campaign/series/etc that is going to go on for many years. Beyond just being an artist who wants to tell a long story that is too large to be just one game, you might be a businessman getting anxiety seeing how insanely difficult it is to acquire customers in Current Year when much of the population has adblock and thus won't see your ads and know your game exists, people's limited free time is being taken up by Youtube and Netflix, etc. Very very difficult to acquire an audience, so once you do find customers you don't want to lose them and start from scratch again. Hence, franchises. Maybe you also want to try cutting costs via asset reuse, so you are not building up an entirely brand game from scratch each time. So you set the story in the same world and towns that you have already modelled and textured and lit, featuring many of the same characters you have already rigged and painstakingly animated, same battle system you have designed and programmed and tediously debugged, etc. You can churn out new boxes/expansions much faster than building up brand new games from the ground up each time.

You somehow need to 1. get these chapters out to be people, and 2. you need to somehow make money off of it. AFAIK there are three established, popular ways to do this:
  • Box purchase ie $60 box at gamestop or download off Steam. Hopefully you are releasing a new game at least once every 1 or 2 years max to retain audience interest. Ie the Trails series, which to my knowledge is the only RPG series that has managed to keep this up for over 20 years, and way behind that, the Yakuza series. A few other series like Sakura Wars, Suikoden, the Xeno series, etc, also dipped their toes into this but did not last for anywhere near as long.
  • Monthly subscription MMO (usually is in addition to buying an expansion box at least once every 1 or 2 years). Aka WoW/FF14/GW2.
  • Free to play where you sell individual characters for a premium currency that you doll out for free very slowly, incentivizing people to pay money (especially when you line up several highly coveted releases in a row, but you have carefully mathed out the average player's premium currency income so that they cannot afford to buy everything they want). Aka Warframe, Granblue Fantasy, Fate/Grand Order, Ark Knights, Genshin Impact, Honkai Star Rail, Wuthering Waves, etc.

I'll start with the F2P/gacha model's plusses and cons first because it then highlights some things with the box purchase and subscription models that might not be immediately obvious.


Image
► Gacha model


Image

Subscription model
► Subscription model


Image

And then lastly, a series of box purchase games (ie Trails, Sakura Wars, PS1 Final Fantasy, Yakuza, The Banner Saga trilogy, etc):
► Box purchase games
Is anyone aware of any box RPG series where you can carry over your inventory/levels/skills across more than 3 games like TBC3?
User avatar
J1M
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 5103
Joined: Feb 15, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by J1M »

WoW isn't really a subscription model game anymore. They are more dependent on cash shop whales + expansion box sales from people that only play a month or two every two years out of nostalgia.

Here's a chart that isn't missing 10 years of data:

Image
User avatar
Val the Moofia Boss
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 4280
Joined: Jun 3, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

J1M wrote: July 25th, 2025, 17:33
WoW isn't really a subscription model game anymore. They are more dependent on cash shop whales + expansion box sales from people that only play a month or two every two years out of nostalgia.

Here's a chart that isn't missing 10 years of data:

Image
I refrained from reposting that fan stitched image because the GDC chart does not have a Y axis, which is almost certainly a deliberate omission by Blizzard because if the numbers were impressive then they wouldn't have omitted it.
User avatar
J1M
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 5103
Joined: Feb 15, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by J1M »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: July 25th, 2025, 17:49
J1M wrote: July 25th, 2025, 17:33
WoW isn't really a subscription model game anymore. They are more dependent on cash shop whales + expansion box sales from people that only play a month or two every two years out of nostalgia.

Here's a chart that isn't missing 10 years of data:

Image
I refrained from reposting that fan stitched image because the GDC chart does not have a Y axis, which is almost certainly a deliberate omission by Blizzard because if the numbers were impressive then they wouldn't have omitted it.
The source of the data for both charts is Blizzard-released numbers. There's no evidence a non-technical presenter went to the trouble of a logarithmic scale for a GDC presentation. They were bragging about this chart. The omission was not showing the 2005-2015 numbers. Which are embarrassing because the "worst" expansion, Warlords of Draenor, had higher numbers than everything made after it.
Last edited by J1M on July 25th, 2025, 18:08, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Norfleet
Posts: 2768
Joined: Jun 3, '23

Geolocation

Post by Norfleet »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: July 25th, 2025, 16:26
It seems like high production value box purchase RPGs have given way to live service RPGs, so I'd think it'd be neat to compare the differences and see what the inherent issues to each model are, the advantages and disadvantages, etc.
Advantages: Clearly it seems to make these people a lot of money without having to come up with something new and different.

Disadvantages: My desire to play any of these games hovers steadily between Zero and None.
User avatar
KOS-MOS
Posts: 836
Joined: Jul 9, '24
Location: Yuropistan
Gender: Watermelon

Geolocation

Post by KOS-MOS »

Still wondering why people call gacha games ""RPG"".

Now everything is a ""RPG"" it seems
User avatar
Stack of Turtles
Posts: 7127
Joined: May 7, '24
Location: Soon-to-be Iran

Geolocation

Post by Stack of Turtles »

KOS-MOS wrote: July 25th, 2025, 21:08
Still wondering why people call gacha games ""RPG"".

Now everything is a ""RPG"" it seems
I guess "sex offender" IS a role...
VAE VICTIS
User avatar
WhiteShark
Site Moderator
Posts: 5056
Joined: Feb 2, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by WhiteShark »

It seems to me that only the discrete box model incentivizes producing a truly satisfying, self-contained experience. Subscription models are incomplete by design because they want you to keep paying money forever. Gacha is doubly so because basic even basic game features are incomplete in order to get you to whale. Gacha may be faster to listen to player input, but that's not always a good thing, either. The box model can, for better or for worse, reflect the developer's unique vision. It's hard to say the same for the other two.

That said, I do wonder if a subscriptionless model in which the developers put out paid mini-expansions at the pace of gacha could be viable. The first area or chapter would be free, but each one beyond that would cost a small amount. New characters could be bundled with the mini-expansions or just sold separately. I acknowledge that this is very unlikely to be as profitable as the gambling model, but it would be interesting to see a game produced in a similar way with a non-predatory monetization scheme.
User avatar
J1M
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 5103
Joined: Feb 15, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by J1M »

WhiteShark wrote: July 26th, 2025, 00:40
It seems to me that only the discrete box model incentivizes producing a truly satisfying, self-contained experience. Subscription models are incomplete by design because they want you to keep paying money forever. Gacha is doubly so because basic even basic game features are incomplete in order to get you to whale. Gacha may be faster to listen to player input, but that's not always a good thing, either. The box model can, for better or for worse, reflect the developer's unique vision. It's hard to say the same for the other two.

That said, I do wonder if a subscriptionless model in which the developers put out paid mini-expansions at the pace of gacha could be viable. The first area or chapter would be free, but each one beyond that would cost a small amount. New characters could be bundled with the mini-expansions or just sold separately. I acknowledge that this is very unlikely to be as profitable as the gambling model, but it would be interesting to see a game produced in a similar way with a non-predatory monetization scheme.
Feel like this wouldn't work since each further expansion would have less sales than the previous. Many things are funded by unrealistic expectations and that's why you see a lot of "standalone expansions".
User avatar
WhiteShark
Site Moderator
Posts: 5056
Joined: Feb 2, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by WhiteShark »

J1M wrote: July 26th, 2025, 00:48
Feel like this wouldn't work since each further expansion would have less sales than the previous. Many things are funded by unrealistic expectations and that's why you see a lot of "standalone expansions".
I assume the expansion problem is because they're normally designed such that one must own all the previous expansions in order to play the new one. In a game with level-scaling, like Genshin, the expansions could be designed to not require each other. A large, linear story could still be retained by offering a brief summary of prior events at the beginning of each new expansion.
User avatar
rusty_shackleford
Site Admin
Posts: 45828
Joined: Feb 2, '23
Gender: Watermelon

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by rusty_shackleford »

My 2 cents:
  • The biggest name MMOs(or just ORPGs I guess) tend to have the least content when controlled for how long they've been on the market. The small, lean teams that have been going at it for years? They pump out content multiple times a year if not monthly. The big studios with constant turnover that require going thru 5 people just to get a small task done? It takes them a year just to get something like a new dungeon.
  • If you exclude WoW, the most successful longest running MMO is probably Runescape, especially if you smash both versions together. Rarely anyone ever talks about Runescape outside of Runescape, so this is maybe kinda surprising to a lot of people I guess? Runescape is not far from being a solo game with multiplayer features. Runescape likely has 500+ quests between OSRS/RS3/RS3-remastered quests, and these are not typical MMO "quests" but tend to be long, multi-hour affairs with a lot of attention to detail(often regarded as some of the best in the genre.)
  • Everquest is almost on its 30th expansion despite a rather small, but dedicated, playerbase. These expansions regularly introduce new features, raids, dungeons, zones, etc.,
  • Another game that goes under the radar is Dungeons & Dragons Online, which has quests not dissimilar from Runescape in quality, but each quest is more like a WoW instance. Ravenloft DDO expansion is probably some of the best D&D stuff available, any format. Early content(in terms of release year) suffers from not being as good, but there's a lot of newer content available at all levels.
I think if we tied this together and tried to think of a game that could run for a very long time, and be sustainable(if not profitable), it would involve an online, semi-multiplayer game with regular content releases. You'd need something with the ease of use of the NWN toolkit for content creation, and a few people who are good at it. Things like new models and such could be done as contract work, but most assets could be reused. Subscription model to access content, with some for free for people to see if they like it. But… that's just my guess from what works and I know of.
Oh, and some way to keep your character relevant despite power increases. DDO probably has one of the better models here with reincarnation(rebirth your character with a small, stacking passive bonus), and nearly all new quests being available as both a low level and high level version(with separate rewards, of course.)
Smash this together with JRPG or Bioware-esque companions and there's probably a decent very long-term game here with some appeal.

A major issue for many of these games is the content creation tools are really poor and old… but still probably better than what new games are using in terms of actual content creation. The smart people have left the industry. You no longer have a couple tools programmers creating an entire editor for the game, you get the clunky, unwieldy UE5 jeetsloppa supreme.
I suspect those Japanese games with a lot of regular releases have very good content creation tools in-house.

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: July 25th, 2025, 16:26
Is anyone aware of any box RPG series where you can carry over your inventory/levels/skills across more than 3 games like TBC3?
You guys do have your Wizardry 8 end-game save backed up to one day import it into Wizardry 9, Right? :)

I suspect one of the Goldbox games may be at least 4 long import if we count the non-Goldbox interlude games? @Dorateen may know more.
Thank you for your attention to this matter!
Steam friend code: 40552640 https://steamcommunity.com/friends/add | email: [email protected]
Having trouble running an old Windows game?
Rusty's Stuff Collection
User avatar
Dorateen
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 200
Joined: Sep 29, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by Dorateen »

rusty_shackleford wrote: July 27th, 2025, 16:56
I suspect one of the Goldbox games may be at least 4 long import if we count the non-Goldbox interlude games? @Dorateen may know more.
That would be the Moonsea saga, which let the player import characters from Pool of Radiance to Curse of the Azure Bonds, to Secret of the Silver Blades, and finish in Pools of Darkness.

It was the most important tetralogy in Western civilization since Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen".
User avatar
rusty_shackleford
Site Admin
Posts: 45828
Joined: Feb 2, '23
Gender: Watermelon

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by rusty_shackleford »

Dorateen wrote: July 27th, 2025, 17:57
rusty_shackleford wrote: July 27th, 2025, 16:56
I suspect one of the Goldbox games may be at least 4 long import if we count the non-Goldbox interlude games? @Dorateen may know more.
That would be the Moonsea saga, which let the player import characters from Pool of Radiance to Curse of the Azure Bonds, to Secret of the Silver Blades, and finish in Pools of Darkness.

It was the most important tetralogy in Western civilization since Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen".
Have you read the Azure Bonds book? I got halfway thru it once but didn't finish it, can't remember why, might have just gotten interrupted for a while and forgot to.
Thank you for your attention to this matter!
Steam friend code: 40552640 https://steamcommunity.com/friends/add | email: [email protected]
Having trouble running an old Windows game?
Rusty's Stuff Collection
User avatar
Dorateen
Turtle
Turtle
Posts: 200
Joined: Sep 29, '23

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by Dorateen »

rusty_shackleford wrote: July 27th, 2025, 17:58
Dorateen wrote: July 27th, 2025, 17:57
rusty_shackleford wrote: July 27th, 2025, 16:56
I suspect one of the Goldbox games may be at least 4 long import if we count the non-Goldbox interlude games? @Dorateen may know more.
That would be the Moonsea saga, which let the player import characters from Pool of Radiance to Curse of the Azure Bonds, to Secret of the Silver Blades, and finish in Pools of Darkness.

It was the most important tetralogy in Western civilization since Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen".
Have you read the Azure Bonds book? I got halfway thru it once but didn't finish it, can't remember why, might have just gotten interrupted for a while and forgot to.
Briefly flipped through them while playing CotAB. But then I wanted to avoid spoilers so I didn't finish. I never got into the Forgotten Realms books, the Dragonlance series was much better written. And that made the Krynn trilogy from the GoldBox games more satisfying.
User avatar
Norfleet
Posts: 2768
Joined: Jun 3, '23

Geolocation

Post by Norfleet »

WhiteShark wrote: July 26th, 2025, 00:40
It seems to me that only the discrete box model incentivizes producing a truly satisfying, self-contained experience.
All financial models produce a distortion of design incentives. It's only a question of which distortion you prefer. In your case, a discrete one-and-done model produces a satisfying self-contained experience for the first 2 hours of the game. After that, the developer's financial incentive is exhausted and the quality of your experience begins to taper off.

The model that incentivizes producing satisfying experiences is the one where the developers are locked in the basement and forced to produce game to be allowed to continue living. A fair number of developers would probably actually prefer this.
User avatar
Norfleet
Posts: 2768
Joined: Jun 3, '23

Geolocation

Post by Norfleet »

KOS-MOS wrote: July 25th, 2025, 21:08
Still wondering why people call gacha games
I'm still wondering why people call them GAMES.
User avatar
rusty_shackleford
Site Admin
Posts: 45828
Joined: Feb 2, '23
Gender: Watermelon

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by rusty_shackleford »

rusty_shackleford wrote: July 27th, 2025, 16:56
it would involve an online
Actually not convinced this is a requirement, a dual system where you can play the game offline would probably work fine too. e.g., Diablo 2. If you sold packs as discrete DLC, this may work? Don't know.

How to address the issue of adding content that players can't access?
How to keep a character relevant for a long period of time? I don't know. Families? (As in, character families not unlike e.g., alts)? Perhaps something similar? Maybe some other way to release content that is for low level adventurers but high level adventurers still want to do it?

This is a good thread for monetization ideas that actually help a game

The popularity of ironman in MMORPGs points towards there being something that these people want. What is it about these games that they like so much and isn't in traditional RPGs?

For those that don't know, ironman in MMORPGs is typically a mode where you can't engage in things like trading items with other players and similar restrictions.
Last edited by rusty_shackleford on July 28th, 2025, 04:40, edited 2 times in total.
Thank you for your attention to this matter!
Steam friend code: 40552640 https://steamcommunity.com/friends/add | email: [email protected]
Having trouble running an old Windows game?
Rusty's Stuff Collection
User avatar
rusty_shackleford
Site Admin
Posts: 45828
Joined: Feb 2, '23
Gender: Watermelon

Geolocation

Adventurer's Guild

Post by rusty_shackleford »

rusty_shackleford wrote: July 28th, 2025, 04:38
What is it about these games that they like so much and isn't in traditional RPGs?
Still don't know, but I guess I could start with things that ironman mode removes that detracts from the experience. The obvious is that when you can just trade the game's currency for anything, earning things means a lot less. You also start looking at everything in terms of "do I want to do this, or do I want to go do something else and use the gold to buy that?" etc.,
Actually being able to make your own stuff matters instead of it just being worthless crap, and so on
Thank you for your attention to this matter!
Steam friend code: 40552640 https://steamcommunity.com/friends/add | email: [email protected]
Having trouble running an old Windows game?
Rusty's Stuff Collection
User avatar
Norfleet
Posts: 2768
Joined: Jun 3, '23

Geolocation

Post by Norfleet »

rusty_shackleford wrote: July 28th, 2025, 07:13
You also start looking at everything in terms of "do I want to do this, or do I want to go do something else and use the gold to buy that?" etc.
That is a fundamentally cursed problem, really. Either "money can be used to buy desirable goods and services" or "items are rare and require personal effort". You can't really have both. Either I can buy the things I want using money (and thus nothing is truly rare), or anything worth obtaining cannot actually be bought, so money is worthless.
rusty_shackleford wrote: July 28th, 2025, 07:13
Actually being able to make your own stuff matters instead of it just being worthless crap, and so on
Crafting systems being filled with worthless crap is a separate issue, really.