Was RTwP just a fad?

[Humbaba]

It was in WotR pre-launch

You're right, I was thinking of Kangmaker.

[rusty_shackleford]

The pathfinder games are significantly easier in turn-based mode than RTwP, it's just hard to make traditional turn-based combat actually difficult.

[Oyster Sauce]

I shall not be pretending that Mass Effect is RTWP

[Lord of Riva]

Turns do not have to be executed like in X-com though, I would love to experiment with a system like Frozen synapse (with fixed input duration) and a highly increased complexity.

(I think you already linked one game that is akin to this but I would need to check my wishlist on Steam again)

It does not need to be like chess but RTwP is a method to control for something that is not controllable eg. too much complexity for Real-time to handle a realy mixture like above has potential but not like it has been handled thus far.

[Lord of Riva]

I shall not be pretending that Mass Effect is RTWP

This uhh realization is indeed pretty weird.

[Bertram_Tung]

mass effect was just the next evolution of KOTOR so it has RTWP roots n dna n shieettt

[Acrux]

Turns do not have to be executed like in X-com though, I would love to experiment with a system like Frozen synapse (with fixed input duration) and a highly increased complexity.

I think games like Frozen Synapse or Door Kickers have the best implementation of this style, but aren't those usually called something different than rtwp?

[Norfleet]

I prefer action combat and I don't trust AI to order my teammates around. RTWP has 0 downsides.

Oh, there's a downside: RTWP is deeply incompatible with multiplayer. You can't just pause in the middle of a multiplayer game.

[Norfleet]

it's just hard to make traditional turn-based combat actually difficult.

It's hard to make a game that is meant to be beaten difficult, period. Difficulty can only come from something that isn't meant to be defeated by design, like another player.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

The pathfinder games are significantly easier in turn-based mode than RTwP, it's just hard to make traditional turn-based combat actually difficult.

Somebody hasn’t played on unfair difficulty.

[Lord of Riva]

Turns do not have to be executed like in X-com though, I would love to experiment with a system like Frozen synapse (with fixed input duration) and a highly increased complexity.

I think games like Frozen Synapse or Door Kickers have the best implementation of this style, but aren't those usually called something different than rtwp?

Yes of course but they are still takes on turn based content mixed with real-time. It's just that they are less gay.

[Norfleet]

Yes of course but they are still takes on turn based content mixed with real-time. It's just that they are less gay.

They're purely turn-based content. They're not in any way "mixed" with real time in anything other than presentation. You are allowed agency ONLY during the turn. Everything you see after that is over and done with and you're only being shown it as an animation. That's as turn-based as it gets.

The pathfinder games are significantly easier in turn-based mode than RTwP, it's just hard to make traditional turn-based combat actually difficult.

Somebody hasn’t played on unfair difficulty.

Doesn't matter. Increasing difficulty in a turn-based single-player RPG simply weeds out questionable strategies, narrowing the pool of viable strategies. It doesn't make executing the existing viable strategy any more difficult or less reliable, because the game never acts to counter your strategy once you have it. TBSPRPG also offers no execution difficulties because it does not depend on the player's physical abilities to execute the strategy: Once the strategy is known, a limbless cripple can execute the strategy just fine. And since the game does not adapt and counter, the player needs no great feat of intellectual prowess to execute the known strategy. The difficulty is thus effectively nonexistent. Difficulty can only come when the player is required to devise and execute: Turn-based single player requires neither: You just look up what the correct strategy is and follow it. It's only when you fight something that isn't specifically meant to be beaten, meaning, another player, that you find difficulty.

[MC_Sea]

While I don't miss the clusterfuck combat, it is strange that something as big could just vanish without much discussion. Thoughts?

Personally, I don't feel it's strange since this trend has happened with plenty of genres that have faded into obscurity. 3D platformers, Rhythm games, Schmups, etc. are all good examples of this. I don't know what causes the sudden surges and decreases in popularity to happen though. The only reasonable explanation I could find is either that the people who decided to pick up certain games only did so due to seeing other people playing them or because the genre itself became oversaturated which caused people to feel exhausted from all the similar games being released.

The only recent RTwP game I remember playing recently was Tower of Time which was mentioned by Acrux a while back.

RPG/RTS hybrid with a good implementation of RTwP. Dirt cheap.

[Lord of Riva]

They're purely turn-based content. They're not in any way "mixed" with real time in anything other than presentation. You are allowed agency ONLY during the turn. Everything you see after that is over and done with and you're only being shown it as an animation. That's as turn-based as it gets.

The simultaneous excution of the turn is what I am refering to it also means that situations can occur that normally can not occur in Turn based games, like the enemy not being where he was after the partial turn execution.

I really do not think that it is reasonable to say they are purely turn based because frankly by such a stringent view both Diablo and the all RTwP games would also be, the purpose of mentioning these games is to conclude the differences between the system and not to reduce them down to a common denominator.

[Norfleet]

The simultaneous excution of the turn is what I am refering to it also means that situations can occur that normally can not occur in Turn based games, like the enemy not being where he was after the partial turn execution.

I really do not think that it is reasonable to say they are purely turn based because frankly by such a stringent view both Diablo and the all RTwP games would also be, the purpose of mentioning these games is to conclude the differences between the system and not to reduce them down to a common denominator.

Simultaneous turn-based is still turn-based. It's just distinct from sequential turn-based.

[J1M]

Yes of course but they are still takes on turn based content mixed with real-time. It's just that they are less gay.

They're purely turn-based content. They're not in any way "mixed" with real time in anything other than presentation. You are allowed agency ONLY during the turn. Everything you see after that is over and done with and you're only being shown it as an animation. That's as turn-based as it gets.

The pathfinder games are significantly easier in turn-based mode than RTwP, it's just hard to make traditional turn-based combat actually difficult.

Somebody hasn’t played on unfair difficulty.

Doesn't matter. Increasing difficulty in a turn-based single-player RPG simply weeds out questionable strategies, narrowing the pool of viable strategies. It doesn't make executing the existing viable strategy any more difficult or less reliable, because the game never acts to counter your strategy once you have it. TBSPRPG also offers no execution difficulties because it does not depend on the player's physical abilities to execute the strategy: Once the strategy is known, a limbless cripple can execute the strategy just fine. And since the game does not adapt and counter, the player needs no great feat of intellectual prowess to execute the known strategy. The difficulty is thus effectively nonexistent. Difficulty can only come when the player is required to devise and execute: Turn-based single player requires neither: You just look up what the correct strategy is and follow it. It's only when you fight something that isn't specifically meant to be beaten, meaning, another player, that you find difficulty.

Difficulty is only reaction speed? Dubious.

Turn-based can be made more difficult without turning into a puzzle with the introduction of dynamic elements. It's usually not at the top of designer goals for content people see once.

[rusty_shackleford]

The real problem is that it becomes fads that developers copy rather than each developer just having their own preferred style and spending years refining it

I'd say anyone who refuses to play a game simple because it's turn-based or RTwP is, most charitably, odd. Both can be fun if they're done well. And the more the market gets of one kind, the more I want of the other.

[Norfleet]

Difficulty is only reaction speed? Dubious.

Pretty much. Everything else can simply be outsourced.

Turn-based can be made more difficult without turning into a puzzle with the introduction of dynamic elements.

The only "dynamic element" is "another player", that is actively seeking to counter what I am doing, and isn't specifically designed for defeat. Everything else is just a static script that has a limited repertoire of moves, and fixed weaknesses that can be exploited without them ever adapting. They all reduce to a known problem, and there is no other barrier to the implementation of the known solution.

[J1M]

Difficulty is only reaction speed? Dubious.

Pretty much. Everything else can simply be outsourced.

Turn-based can be made more difficult without turning into a puzzle with the introduction of dynamic elements.

The only "dynamic element" is "another player", that is actively seeking to counter what I am doing, and isn't specifically designed for defeat. Everything else is just a static script that has a limited repertoire of moves, and fixed weaknesses that can be exploited without them ever adapting. They all reduce to a known problem, and there is no other barrier to the implementation of the known solution.

I agree that is how most games are programmed, but do you think your conclusion applies to something like Deep Blue or AlphaGo?

Because if not, it's just a matter of funding priorities to cross the line that you have in your head between "outsourceable" and "another player difficulty".

[Norfleet]

I agree that is how most games are programmed, but do you think your conclusion applies to something like Deep Blue or AlphaGo?

Chess and Go are PvP games. These AIs are players, external to the game rather than part of it. Even if they aren't a "human", they're still a PLAYER rather than a PvE obstacle, and represent the will of a player that is attempting to beat you, rather than an obstacle you're meant to overcome. And like a human player, they will be updated to overcome any technique you come up with that exploits them.