Designs for better idle games

[NotAI]

The original title was Designing an idle game that isn't ****. I go forth It seems that there are some well-known rules that must be duly noted

The rules are apparently the following.

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0. Numbers must always go up.

1. Number get really big.

2. Several numbers go up at once.

3. They go up at different rates.

4. Usually very slowly.

5. Relative rates affect individual rates.

6. Upgrades make 'em go up faster.

7. Upgrades cost more and more until very expensive.

8. Cost for upgrades rapidly increases. For a while it increases slowly. Then increases more and more quickly. Cost of next upgrade starts out being less than progress - how numbers go up and relative rates improve - gained after upgrading but soon becomes more than progress gained by upgrading.

9. Making sacrifices, new game plus, whether restarting or backtracking, sacrificing some upgrades, gives some advantages from the start that makes numbers go up faster, so upgrades

10. Leave game open and numbers will keep going up, periodically looking at it, until numbers high enough to upgrade, or autoclicker and leave running and come back to check up on it.

This is boring :sleepy This it is relaxing, however, because it is somewhat boring

And it is this, presumably, that some people want at times.

Comment. I presume these are really heuristics, not strict genre rules. I will add more thoughts and revisions. For example, should the game go for more zeros? Or make a new number system with A, B, C, D, E, where B is worth 10,000 A, C is worth 1,000,000 B, D is worth 1,000,000,000 C, and so on with other units? Or be like in poker where some combinations of different units are worth more and others worth less?

Next, the pressure point in the rules that draws my attention is the following. Jay Stelly long ago described how in Half-Life 2, safe gameplay facilitates learning new main skills, and also listening to the story being told. Teaching the player something new through new tools being provided or chosen by the player, and the player being forced to use them while in the safe area, before leaving, in order to leave.

Well, there are plenty of safe areas in this genre.

What if focus moves to players slowly learning kitchen-sink combos of tools. Little things like pushing boulders around, dropping fences, putting arrows on fire, fire arrows set oil puddles on fire, the usual things. Would that be a genre improvement? Considering the game mostly will play itself? "Slow Imm Sim"? "Low Competence Imm Sim"? "Relaxing Imm Sim"? "No Effort Imm Sim?"

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My current thoughts on the subject: (1.a) Put in ``stressful'' ``normal'' areas where PC must fight...

(1.b) ...around the usual idle game safe areas. That makes the normal areas of this genre now the safe areas, in contrast to the new fight-fight-fight areas. Hmm.

(1.c) Each safe area forces player to pick one new tool and learn how to use it, to exit. I see a potential problem. The player of an idle game might not ever bother with the fight-fight-fight areas but then there is no contrast that makes safe areas seem like safe areas; hmm.

(2.a) Put in bots like those used to test long games with. That can complete the whole game automated. Simple, possibly just the classic Shannon algorithm for solving mazes. Self-avoiding random walk with some bells and whistles. The bells and whistles are collecting and depositing some items. Track as a list of things fills up until it matches another list and then stop when it empties again. PC drops item in slot if it has the item and is standing on the slot. Something like that.

(2.b) Let player zoom to them and see what they are doing and change some policy parameters. This costs astronomical numbers. Direct control also costs astronomical numbers.

(2.c) Let bots compete to take procedural quests. Completing some quests helps complete others. But bots can ruin quests for other bots, and often try to do that automatically, with varying degrees of success.

(2.d) It's not only the player learns how to use the tools but also teaches his character to use it.

(2.e) Once the player learns, the PC also learns, because player can teach it this. PC can automatically use anything learned. Teaching is just filling up the ``template'' list to be matched by the other list filled up when PC moves around and does actions. In terms of these actions, there is a ``correct'' or ``appropriate'' composition of the list to be matched. Actions random but can't be repeated too often consecutively; so until several other actions tried first. Then probability restored.

(3) Changing teams is possible but costs the most points. ``Soulswap'' move is activated at the greatest cost.

Tentative Main Theme: https://f.rpghq.org/zKffMYoxK3v8.mp3?n= ... 3-2025.mp3 (For this genre, this theme might still not be mellow enough?)

i. Particular thoughts?

ii. Is there anything wrong with any of the above "accepted genre rules"? In what sense might they not really be "rules"?

iii. Should there be stealth?

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Comment. I've always liked the Jay Stelly talk and I want to try something simple on the subject. Scope will probably get reduced refined. Basic 2D. No 3D.

[dagal]

It would make sense if there was an optional thinking component to it.

Want to just check in once a day and progress anyway? That's fine, you can do it. But you can also progress much faster if you study the obstacles ahead of you and build a strategy for overcoming them. This would go beyond splitting active vs passive players, since the focus is not as much on having your eyes on the screen at all times and be fast with your mouse, but more on putting your brain at work rather than not think about it. If you are really patient, you can eventually brute force the whole thing. But you are not going to qualify for any speedrunner record.

One thing that I would consider to avoid at all costs would be over reliance on dice mechanics, so that most of the game's factors are decided by a PRNG. It would mitigate or outright cancel out the feeling of accomplishment for successfully solving a game problem, and create frustration when expectations are not met, not due to the player's fault. I know some would be even willing to pay to win on such a singleplayer game, but I hope you won't go that route, since it's degenerate and sad.

So what about stealth? If it's a stealth level that is compared against some enemy's awareness check, to give the MC more time to do actions before being discovered and having to fight, that looks interesting. And if your stealth is OP enough, you can complete the challenge without ever getting discovered/fighting. But if it's PRNG based, that'd be tricky.

[J1M]

Some random thoughts.

I think this genre has room to grow.

I'd rather see "+2 peanut butter cookies" than "+2,000,000 cookies".

Time steps don't need to be tied to a real world clock.

Idle games can be a good choice for a minigame (success = door unlocked and molt for some permanent advancement) or kingdom management inside another game.

These ideas can be combined such that the increment of the idle game advances at a rate determined by other play. Such as killing an enemy, completing a quest, or one step per XP gained.

Even more gamist: character advancement in an RPG is an idle game where you buy character upgrades with your XP cookies. Buying one makes you stronger but resets idler progress. Better upgrades cost more.

There's also the consideration of adding something other than "patience" or "efficiency" to the idler gameplay. Finding another axis of challenge other than "reach 1,000,000 cookies in 10 minutes". If you look at something like Axes & Acres, there is an immediate concern of generating enough (but not too much) food when the actual goal is earning enough victory points by a certain turn. Still optimization with input randomness, but more interesting than just one resource. Whoever solves this should have a hit on their hands.

[NotAI]

I'd rather see "+2 peanut butter cookies" than "+2,000,000 cookies".

Why? 2 cookies understandable. Whereas 200000000000000...00000 cookies is incomprehensible. Hence powerful, is it not?

Comment. I remember that Panzer Dragoon Zwei introduced basically trying to get a high score in previous stage to change the model (it evolves...before Pokemon) and powers of your dragon for next missions. Something about seeking near perfect or high score to replace models might be done by including AI to generate, from standard parts, the protagonist and enemies.

There's also the consideration of adding something other than "patience" or "efficiency" to the idler gameplay. Finding another axis of challenge other than "reach 1,000,000 cookies in 10 minutes". If you look at something like Axes & Acres, there is an immediate concern of generating enough (but not too much) food when the actual goal is earning enough victory points by a certain turn. Still optimization with input randomness, but more interesting than just one resource. Whoever solves this should have a hit on their hands.

There is a version that might be of interest. The second axis of optimization might be randomly selected from a list. This would lead to a different character or city development for starting the next stage, where again, the second axis is randomly selected. Path dependence? More replayable?

[J1M]

I'd rather see "+2 peanut butter cookies" than "+2,000,000 cookies".

Why? 2 cookies understandable. Whereas 200000000000000...00000 cookies is incomprehensible. Hence powerful, is it not?

Comment. I remember that Panzer Dragoon Zwei introduced basically trying to get a high score in previous stage to change the model (it evolves...before Pokemon) and powers of your dragon for next missions. Something about seeking near perfect or high score to replace models might be done by including AI to generate, from standard parts, the protagonist and enemies.

There's also the consideration of adding something other than "patience" or "efficiency" to the idler gameplay. Finding another axis of challenge other than "reach 1,000,000 cookies in 10 minutes". If you look at something like Axes & Acres, there is an immediate concern of generating enough (but not too much) food when the actual goal is earning enough victory points by a certain turn. Still optimization with input randomness, but more interesting than just one resource. Whoever solves this should have a hit on their hands.

There is a version that might be of interest. The second axis of optimization might be randomly selected from a list. This would lead to a different character or city development for starting the next stage, where again, the second axis is randomly selected. Path dependence? More replayable?

I was voicing support for the idea of progress being represented by different currencies, not just a single currency that inflates to numbers that require scientific notation.

[NotAI]

...

I was voicing support for the idea of progress being represented by different currencies, not just a single currency that inflates to numbers that require scientific notation.

I was thinking both originally might be needed. So growth in A, B, C, D, units, not just a single axis E, but still growth to astronomical scales.

Some people really do have an infatuation with those large numbers, though I don't.

Comment. I need to test both cases, in the end. It's a different genre with some existing conventions.

When many different axes and all of them possibly going very large, there is room for them to drop off in growth as a function of current value differently, without it being sudden, and quests can then be ways not just to grow an axis, but also to convert between at least two.

Instead of directly, or through trainers, you build your character by quests that convert at some rate some A into some B but different quests you find do so at different rates, however, some have different prerequisites.

The axes along which you have had high progress however are random over time and the average over the whole game comes out the same.

Like being a mage is harder at first but easier at the end, but being a warrior easier at first but later harder.

Doing the quest of type X when A is higher than B but both high enough, converts most of A at rate 0.85 to B, while if B and D sufficiently high, but D is higher, doing quest of type Y, converts much of D at rate 0.65 to B.

Eventually strategy appears like going in a different loop gives a flux, like in usual physics. Some loops are better overall, and must be found.

If you get high enough B, you can do quest of type Z, if you find it, to convert at 0.75 back to A. Then quest Z of type Z no longer accessible for while. But there is a rapid drop-off in being able to grow A directly.

This might be for a mage playthrough. Different order of things for a warrior. Likewise for an archer.

This encourages RPG elements to come to the forefront?

Different quests might also be in different biomes, so different type characters have incentives to visit them at different times.

In some sense, a potential balancing nightmare, but I may try automated testing with graphics in retro.

[J1M]

How to make an idle game replayable? In other words, was it ever 'fun' or was it just 'novel'?

[NotAI]

I'll make a clicker game with Barbie Dressing progression.

Your PC gains power by wearing multiple layers of items.

But you have to click on each item a lot otherwise it disappears.

Equip ancient helmet of war, gloves of power, cuirass of the kraken, leggings of el salvador, boots of swift speed, greaves of the dragon.
Then brilliant dress shirt and magical kilt.
Then camelhair +5 charisma fur coat.
Then paper bag on head. (No eye slits, -10 awareness.)
Each requires 500,5000,50000 clicks per hour, except the greaves, which requite 1000000. Otherwise it goes poof in the listed number of hours and you have to find another. No, you fool, you can't repair.

Game of the year?

After the latest upgrade WoW received, this is meant to be.

Moving this here. Will ruminate on this too: it can be made procedural in a few days, after I'm free next week, and just focus on handcrafted jokes only to shove inside.

Steam Page:

A game about a world where people's pants disappear. if you, the Holy One, don't constantly click on their gear.
This applies equally to everyone, including NPCs, because the Laws of Nature are fair.

By the end of the game, if you don't click on NPCs also, they all end up with nothing on, and effectively lvl 1, even though they might start at lvl 500 courtesy of their armor.