Dark and Darker, the medieval fantasy dungeon extraction game

[Kalarion]

EQ did have the holy trinity, the player-base absolutely created it and cared about/whined about it constantly. In my experience mezzers were considered important but not uniquely critical in the way the trinity was. There was one way the ever-expanding power creep ironically improved the scene: it made players take non-standard options seriously. I remember that late Luclin (say, Temple of Ssra+) and especially PoP is when people started really paying attention to what the hybrids could bring to the table. Paladins and Shadowknights were "suddenly" viable contenders for main raid tank, Rangers brought badass buffs and high dps from range or melee, Bards were the kings of everything...

I appreciate and generally agree with Xenich's view, but the timeline is a little off. PoP came out in late 2002. LDoN, OoW and GoD all came out long before WoW, which released in mid-2005. I agree with Rusty that LDoN was possibly the best and most fun expansion that released while I was playing (I started playing shortly after Velious, so I missed Kunark's release). Instanced dungeon runs with tight groups of friends was a blast, and I loved the reward system as well.

It is possible to do open-world dungeon design well. EQ had it to a degree and for a time. Consider for instance the Guks, Sebilis, Chardok, Velk's Lab, even some Luclin dungeons. Their veer in focus to raid content destroyed it. PoP was the MMO equivalent of a linear corridor shooter. FF XI on the other hand has excellent dungeon design, and the dungeons are big enough to support large server populations. It also added the Chest/Coffer system, which really nails the feel of going hunting through dangerous and exciting locales in order to open a chest for loot.

I used to love raiding, but then, I was brought into EQ directly into a well-established raiding guild by a friend. The guild grew from a lower-/mid-level type to one of the top raiding guilds on my server, so my perceptions on raiding and content were somewhat warped. I never had to worry seriously about finding a group, experiencing content or getting cool **** for my character. Looking back on it, I wish I'd started out differently, and I wish EQ had never gone in the direction of, "raids = gear and content".

C'est la vie.

[Manny V]

sooooooooooooo, dark and darker sesh any1?

[Xenich]

So were there any other good things about EverQuest's golden era that got corrupted later on? It seems from what I've watched of retro-implementation videos of the game they talk about the player characters being far more involved than in later MMORPGs due to various changes in the paradim introduced from World of Warcraft, and other videos disliking that later ones ended up being too solo centric which violated the purpose of the MMO part of the game.

Oh and it seemed like from what you're saying, the so called Holy Trinity of class roles (Tank/DPS/Heal or Support) was an invention of the players that ended up changing MMORPG game structuring later down the line.

I differ with @rusty_shackleford on group contested content. There are benefits to both, but after playing WoW, and EQ2's hybrid mixed variations, I tend to think I enjoyed contested group content better than instanced. That I wouldn't say is an issue of "corrupted" as it is more of a taste in style that depends on the individual as to what they expect.

I liked extremely large dungeons with various named that had place holders all throughout it that were gated with tons of mobs that took a good group (or a skilled individual) lots of effort to reach. I enjoyed getting to the room and then having to hold it. I think what I liked most about it was the balance of anticipation of your reward. You did a lot of effort to get in and then setup your camp, then... once you got that down it was just a cycle of anticipating the rare to pop as well as it having the item you were looking for. You know that "feeling" of excitement you get in play before and after a spawn pops, or when it dies and right before you loot it? That was a very addicting feeling and I would say the camping model fed to that far more than the cycles of running and resetting an instance.

I still think a balance with instances could achieve the same thing though (ie an instance that also functions like a contested dungeon in its cycling spawns with rares and placeholders). EQ2 toyed with this and I think it worked well, but there is something to be said about the "social" aspect of a contested dungeon, good and bad (some of the most enjoyable times I had in EQ were dealing with some of the "bad" in contested dungeons, so there are some fun things, but it did get tiring when you encountered social morons).

I never took real issue with classes soloing in EQ, and I played a class that was horrible at soloing for the early expansions (human monk). While my friends who were SK's, Bards, Druids, Necros, Wizards, and Enchanters were blowing through the hell levels soling mobs, I was relegated to forming groups and pulling dungeons to keep up. Necros being able to sneak in and solo hard mobs in Lower Guk didn't bother me, as to be honest it took massive skill to pull off and I don't remember people being upset at soloing at any real time.

The issue I am talking about is where a classes solo'd to points where is was ridiculous (ie a single bard swarm kiting all of HoH so no groups could even go there).

People soloing were fine, and as a monk I often would tag along with some to get exp (ie used to fear kite with a necro/SK as his extra pet or trail behind a druid/wizard/bard as a DoT).

I think where I took issue is when I got on production servers and the player trade market went into overdrive. Then, contested camps became an issue because you had boxers and people on twinked solo classes perma camping all of the named spawns. Combine that with overpopulated servers and it got to the point where dungeons were mostly camped. Even then, EQ had a very large content base and with its difficulty in travel, you could still find some good places to camp (SG was rarely camped other than the entrance due to it being out of the way and underwater content was feared by a lot of players).

As for the holy trinity, @rusty_shackleford is correct, there really wasn't one, but... it didn't stop the common player base from trying to force everything into one. I used to be told I was DPS (pre-nerf) only, or just a puller and my druid friend was told he couldn't main heal, which shocked them when I tanked and he healed. A lot of the mainstream EQ's sucked at the game and didn't take the time to learn the power of various skills that seemed... less powerful. Many didn't understand how taunt really worked and most monks didn't even bother with the ID skill (or didn't understand how to touchless pull, ie not get hit on pulls, which was more of a problem with the ikky monks who got used to their mitigation and regen).

Utility classes would often complain about being useless because they didn't see the power in their function because they viewed everything in singular roles (damage, DPS, tanking, CC) and compared them to classes that were leveraged to them. We used to use a lot of skills/spells in a "ghetto" fashion that made us quite effective regardless of what group makeup we had. While others would spend hours spamming group requests with those narrow requirements, we were already inside the dungeons setting up camp.


Raid contest though, complete ****, hated it. I can see the merit in some very limited targets, but I think that caused an enormous amount of strife within EQ and brought out some of the worst behaviors. That and the player trade market for rare drops only added to the problems. Nothing worse than having some twink pop into a group wearing complete sets of gear that would take months/years to obtain trying to play a class they suck at because they didn't learn it and most of their skills are low because they were power leveled up.

[Xenich]

EQ did have the holy trinity, the player-base absolutely created it and cared about/whined about it constantly. In my experience mezzers were considered important but not uniquely critical in the way the trinity was. There was one way the ever-expanding power creep ironically improved the scene: it made players take non-standard options seriously. I remember that late Luclin (say, Temple of Ssra+) and especially PoP is when people started really paying attention to what the hybrids could bring to the table. Paladins and Shadowknights were "suddenly" viable contenders for main raid tank, Rangers brought badass buffs and high dps from range or melee, Bards were the kings of everything...

I appreciate and generally agree with Xenich's view, but the timeline is a little off. PoP came out in late 2002. LDoN, OoW and GoD all came out long before WoW, which released in mid-2005. I agree with Rusty that LDoN was possibly the best and most fun expansion that released while I was playing (I started playing shortly after Velious, so I missed Kunark's release). Instanced dungeon runs with tight groups of friends was a blast, and I loved the reward system as well.

It is possible to do open-world dungeon design well. EQ had it to a degree and for a time. Consider for instance the Guks, Sebilis, Chardok, Velk's Lab, even some Luclin dungeons. Their veer in focus to raid content destroyed it. PoP was the MMO equivalent of a linear corridor shooter. FF XI on the other hand has excellent dungeon design, and the dungeons are big enough to support large server populations. It also added the Chest/Coffer system, which really nails the feel of going hunting through dangerous and exciting locales in order to open a chest for loot.

I used to love raiding, but then, I was brought into EQ directly into a well-established raiding guild by a friend. The guild grew from a lower-/mid-level type to one of the top raiding guilds on my server, so my perceptions on raiding and content were somewhat warped. I never had to worry seriously about finding a group, experiencing content or getting cool **** for my character. Looking back on it, I wish I'd started out differently, and I wish EQ had never gone in the direction of, "raids = gear and content".

C'est la vie.

I was in early WoW beta in 2003, it released in 2004, LoY /LDON released in 2003, and GOD in 2004. Those of us in beta were constantly talking to people in EQ about it and the Hype for WoW was growing. The word on instanced dungeons and the like for WoW was known before LDON was released (expansions in EQ were roughly on 6 month cycles for many expansions) which is probably why the whole thing felt rushed and gimmicky.

I may be off on exact timelines, but that was generally what happened.

[Xenich]

On POP, I didn't mean to imply PoP caused people to move to WoW. PoP killed EQ (not in immediate numbers), but rather its directional change was what caused the death of it. Brad left in 2001, and was pretty much in control of direction which is why SoL still had a lot of original EQ style to it in terms of game play design.

Smedley took over and we got PoP and the progression to downfall. The stuff between PoP and GoD was to deal with the complaints of groupers, and LDON was trying to get ahead of what WoW was going to be releasing with its instanced content. GoD was rushed out (it was supposed to be GoD/Omens as one expansion) to placate Furor's rant about leaving for WoW when it released and so you got another PoP style expansion.

Like I said, some exact timelines may be off (not by much), but this was generally what I experienced (I spent a lot of time on Monkly business and Furor, Tigole, and Thott were a common theme there).

[Kalarion]

I was in early WoW beta in 2003, it released in 2004, LoY /LDON released in 2003, and GOD in 2004. Those of us in beta were constantly talking to people in EQ about it and the Hype for WoW was growing. The word on instanced dungeons and the like for WoW was known before LDON was released (expansions in EQ were roughly on 6 month cycles for many expansions) which is probably why the whole thing felt rushed and gimmicky.

I may be off on exact timelines, but that was generally what happened.

I checked and you're right. I was basing WoW's release date on my memory of first playing it, but I got the memory dating itself wrong, I was off by a year. My bad.

[Xenich]

I was in early WoW beta in 2003, it released in 2004, LoY /LDON released in 2003, and GOD in 2004. Those of us in beta were constantly talking to people in EQ about it and the Hype for WoW was growing. The word on instanced dungeons and the like for WoW was known before LDON was released (expansions in EQ were roughly on 6 month cycles for many expansions) which is probably why the whole thing felt rushed and gimmicky.

I may be off on exact timelines, but that was generally what happened.

I checked and you're right. I was basing WoW's release date on my memory of first playing it, but I got the memory dating itself wrong, I was off by a year. My bad.

No worries, I get a lot of things mixed up at times on those days. I used to alpha/beta a lot of games in the early days back when you used to have to fill out long forms and write essays on your tech knowledge and experience with software testing. I didn't get into alpha for EQ, but I was able to get into Beta 3 (wish I would have kept my CD the mailed me) which was just butcherblock and no sound to the game.

Eventually opened up to Greater Feydark and steamfont and I remember everyone was perma camping for the coveted mino axes because they were basically the most powerful weapon available at the time.

I miss those days.

[Yankee Zulu]

Theyve added a new class - sorcerer. They could also be going for randomised dungeons.

https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/t ... n-5/z576fb

[Vergil]

Thought this thread was a reference to OP's preference in men LOL

[Yankee Zulu]

Next free game on Epic Store is going to be Dark and Darker Legendary upgrade. Grab it.

[rusty_shackleford]

did they add a pve mode yet

[WhiteShark]

Next free game on Epic Store is going to be Dark and Darker Legendary upgrade. Grab it.

@Manny V

[Manny V]

Next free game on Epic Store is going to be Dark and Darker Legendary upgrade. Grab it.

@Manny V

wat, i already own it


also epic,

[rusty_shackleford]

similar game but pve only, accepting playtest requests on the steam page

[Oyster Sauce]

similar game but pve only, accepting playtest requests on the steam page

I played a bit

[rusty_shackleford]

PvE mode added to Dark and Darker
https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 2368624660

[rusty_shackleford]

@Finarfin said he's looking for frens to play this with, by the way.

[Finarfin]

Scratch that. PVE mode is a nothing burger that is limited as ****. Literally a "tutorial" to get used to the maps and enemies to then play the real thing. **** this gay ****, I'll just buy Tarkov PVE instead.

[Finarfin]

IF you guys wanna play a similar game, I would recommend Expedition: Into Darkness and Ad Mortem



Oyster posted a very amusing webm of the game. (Expedition I mean)

[Finarfin]

Four of the PVP classes of Ad Mortem (more will be revealed)