If OwlCat decides to adapt Warhammer fantasy, which "ruleset" should they use?

[WaterMage]

So far, we have 3 OwlCat games. Two using PF1e/D&D 3.75e and one using their own system. Being very honest, I really hated their own system in Warhammer Rogue Trader. It is as gamey as 4e. Much more bloated than epic level 3.5e and PF1e Mythic levels combined. Where you win by stacking endless amounts of attribute buffs, extra turns, and bonuses to the point that your psyker has higher PR and Willpower than Lord of Change and your fighters end up with higher physical attributes than Bloodthirster.

IMHO, if Rogue Trader was made using a similar ruleset as their previous games (d20 OGL), or TT Dark Heresy, or TT Rogue Trader rules, or adapting a retroclone, or anything else, the game would be exponentially better. And I could rant endlessly about how psykers suck on RT, that perils of the warp stop mattering in act 2, they took away all offensive biomancy, made divination 4e tier ****, didn't include telekinesis, the most unique and cool power, and how bolters feel not much better than lasguns and other stuff, but I already ranted a lot about it.

So, let's suppose that OwlCat decides to adapt Warhammer Fantasy next. As their business model is to have cheap but highly productive Russians making games, license 3rd party IPs for brand recognition and an audience starving for CRPGs that will play anything that is not a gear farming, cooldown managing boredom and has the basic RPG elements in it. Which ruleset should they use?

If someone want to vote in other system, say and I will edit and add to poll options.

[Humbaba]

cheap but highly productive Russians

Let's stick to cheap. Besides, they're Cypriots. Not a Rusgolian among em.

100% agree with Roguey Trader's rules being utter dogshit. I think a simple and familiar d20 sort of system would work well and appeal to most people.

[Valter]

I dunno **** about tabletops but, as much as I favour doing your own thing, I liked Rogue Trader's gameplay far less than the Pathfinders'.

So if that was their attempt at foregoing an established system and doing their own schtick, I'd rather they take a step back for now, at least for the next release.

[rusty_shackleford]

unless they fire their gameplay designers, just copy something from tabletop, anything
roguey trader's systems sucked

[UltraFan123]

They should also make it primary with real-time combat in mind, and if they want to add turn-based then it should be a choice, not mandatory like in Rogue Trader were combat took forever.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

I’m pretty sure Owlcat ruled out in making a Warhammer Fantasy adaptation in their recent AMA.

[UltraFan123]

I’m pretty sure Owlcat ruled out in making a Warhammer Fantasy adaptation in their recent AMA.

Well it may be for the best, since I'm certain that if a Warhammer Fantasy CRPG is made today, GW would demand that it be about Age of Sigmar.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

I’m pretty sure Owlcat ruled out in making a Warhammer Fantasy adaptation in their recent AMA.

Well it may be for the best, since I'm certain that if a Warhammer Fantasy CRPG is made today, GW would demand that it be about Age of Sigmar.

Ok got the direct quote from Owlcat 2024 AMA.

https://owlcat.games/news/92

Will you ever make a Warhammer Fantasy / Old World RPG?

“Sounds exciting, but our priorities are elsewhere at the moment. We aren't developing any game in that setting right now.”

[WaterMage]

And Age of Sigmar?

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

And Age of Sigmar?

I would think Age of Sigmar isn’t being worked on since it does fall into Warhammer fantasy territory even though it own thing now. However can’t completely rule out the possibility that it’s not being worked on since Owlcat never directly say there not making Age of Sigmar.

[rusty_shackleford]

Wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting tapped for a D&D licensed game

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting tapped for a D&D licensed game

They would be ******* ******** to worked with WOTC plus they already said they’re not working on any D&D properties.

[UltraFan123]

Wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting tapped for a D&D licensed game

The only way a DnD game would catch my attention now is if it's made with the 3.5 system and the game's story actively avoids the overused "Sword Coast" area of the setting.

Or better yet, have the game set in the Eberron or Dragonlance setting, while still with the 3.5 edition rules.

But we know that ******* of the Coast would only allow something that resembles BG3 in vain hopes that they can replicate its commercial success.

[WaterMage]

Wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting tapped for a D&D licensed game

The only way a DnD game would catch my attention now is if it's made with the 3.5 system and the game's story actively avoids the overused "Sword Coast" area of the setting.

Or better yet, have the game set in the Eberron or Dragonlance setting, while still with the 3.5 edition rules.

But we know that ******* of the Coast would only allow something that resembles BG3 in vain hopes that they can replicate its commercial success.

WoTC is quite draconian in "promoting current edition" hence we will NEVER get a 3.5e D&D official game.

I hope for a RETROCLONE. Like Hyperborea( https://www.hyperborea.tv/ ) or Machinations of the Space Princess.

[rusty_shackleford]

Wouldn't be surprised if they end up getting tapped for a D&D licensed game

The only way a DnD game would catch my attention now is if it's made with the 3.5 system and the game's story actively avoids the overused "Sword Coast" area of the setting.

Or better yet, have the game set in the Eberron or Dragonlance setting, while still with the 3.5 edition rules.

But we know that ******* of the Coast would only allow something that resembles BG3 in vain hopes that they can replicate its commercial success.

WoTC is quite draconian in "promoting current edition" hence we will NEVER get a 3.5e D&D official game.

I hope for a RETROCLONE. Like Hyperborea( https://www.hyperborea.tv/ ) or Machinations of the Space Princess.

Odds of them doing someone that doesn't have an existing marketing department behind it are probably near zero. They get so much free marketing from latching onto pathfinder or warhammer.

[WaterMage]

They adapting a retroclone can bring the OSR community. Sure, much smaller than WH40k and Pathfinder audience, but after 3 games, they now have a playerbase. The main reason that I want them to adapt a retroclone, mainly the retroclones that limits you to lv 10~12(Shadowdark and hyperborea) is that there will be little to no bloat possible. With less classes and features, I also would expect less bugs.

Shadow of the Demon Lord would also be great imo.

Is interesting how NOBODY liked their own system for Rogue Trader.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

They adapting a retroclone can bring the OSR community. Sure, much smaller than WH40k and Pathfinder audience, but after 3 games, they now have a playerbase. The main reason that I want them to adapt a retroclone, mainly the retroclones that limits you to lv 10~12(Shadowdark and hyperborea) is that there will be little to no bloat possible. With less classes and features, I also would expect less bugs.

Owlcat has said future adaptations IP’s they take on would need growth potential so similar well known franchises like pathfinder and warhammer.

Is interesting how NOBODY liked their own system for Rogue Trader.

Contrary to what many people believe Owlcat had a big survey released for Rogue Trader and the ground combat got rated very highly. The only segment that got rated lower then they wanted was of course there mini game section space combat.

[WaterMage]

ntrary to what many people believe Owlcat had a big survey released for Rogue Trader and the ground combat got rated very highly.

Maybe only the most diehard fans of their game answered the survey.

I honestly have hundreds of hours in Kingmaker and WoTR, loved KoTC2, soloed Pillars 2 in the hardest difficulty, played UnderRail in damnation, I'm the living caricature of the target audience for OwlCat games. Tried to finish RT twice and it bored me till I stopped playing it.

______________

A bit off topic, but in Warhammer, do you guys know how Azyrheim almost got destroyed? After a huge influx of refugees, Tzeentch manipulated them to not be grateful for those protecting and allowing them to live under prosperity, to view those who build such marvelous city as "exploitative", infiltrating institutions and gradually destroying it from inside by putting one against other. If was not by Sigmar doing a huge purge in Chaos, Azyrheim would fell to chaos. Any similarity with Frankfut school tactics is merely coincidence.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Maybe only the most diehard fans of their game answered the survey.

I honestly have hundreds of hours in Kingmaker and WoTR, loved KoTC2, soloed Pillars 2 in the hardest difficulty, played UnderRail in damnation, I'm the living caricature of the target audience for OwlCat games. Tried to finish RT twice and it bored me till I stopped playing it.

Perhaps but the sample size they used was 5k -8k participants so I would say it was good indicator for what there general audience like and dislike. I should add that Owlcat takes theses surveys very seriously and has said on record that the surveys influence how they develop DLC’s and games.

[WaterMage]

Warhammer Rogue trader also has much better reviews. 89% positive in steam right now. Compared to 76 and 65 from kingmaker. So yes, probably their system is only hated by "grognards" like myself... Maybe the average normie don't see the bloat, perils of the warp being irrelevant since chapter 2 and other problems as problems.

[Humbaba]

Warhammer Rogue trader also has much better reviews. 89% positive in steam right now. Compared to 76 and 65 from kingmaker. So yes, probably their system is only hated by "grognards" like myself... Maybe the average normie don't see the bloat, perils of the warp being irrelevant since chapter 2 and other problems as problems.

Kingmaker still drags around the negative reviews of its release days when it was horribly riddled with bugs and people got filtered by spider swarms. Cypruscat implements filters on purpose, they did it in Wrathfinder as well with the gargoyle cave.

Roguey Trader's system was shite, because it had you level up every 5 minutes and suffered from extreme ability bloat that made combat a chore. Didn't help that the navigator was OP in the truest sense of the word.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Warhammer Rogue trader also has much better reviews. 89% positive in steam right now. Compared to 76 and 65 from kingmaker. So yes, probably their system is only hated by "grognards" like myself... Maybe the average normie don't see the bloat, perils of the warp being irrelevant since chapter 2 and other problems as problems.

Kingmaker still drags around the negative reviews of its release days when it was horribly riddled with bugs and people got filtered by spider swarms. Cypruscat implements filters on purpose, they did it in Wrathfinder as well with the gargoyle cave.

Roguey Trader's system was shite, because it had you level up every 5 minutes and suffered from extreme ability bloat that made combat a chore. Didn't help that the navigator was OP in the truest sense of the word.

Owlcat enemy encounters are still **** that devolved to constant trash mobs, which is probably why they made the navigator so OP in killing huge swaths of enemies in two moves preventing the game from becoming a tedious chore winning by attrition.

[WaterMage]

Kingmaker still drags around the negative reviews of its release days when it was horribly riddled with bugs and people got filtered by spider swarms. Cypruscat implements filters on purpose, they did it in Wrathfinder as well with the gargoyle cave.

Nope. All reviews is mostly positives, recent reviews is mixed ( )

[Humbaba]

Nope. All reviews is mostly positives, recent reviews is mixed (

BG3 casuals that whine about unfair dice rolls and are too stupid to make a proper build.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Nope. All reviews is mostly positives, recent reviews is mixed (

BG3 casuals that whine about unfair dice rolls and are too stupid to make a proper build.

Man you should of seen the pathfinder kingmaker subreddit when BG3 got released. Just an avalanche in complaints from casuals ranging from lack of production vaule to the absolute hatred of the lack in VA.

[WaterMage]

Nope. All reviews is mostly positives, recent reviews is mixed (

BG3 casuals that whine about unfair dice rolls and are too stupid to make a proper build.

Man you should of seen the pathfinder kingmaker subreddit when BG3 got released. Just an avalanche in complaints from casuals ranging from lack of production vaule to the absolute hatred of the lack in VA.

And journos bitching that swords aren't effective against insect swarms, you need to use torches, bombs, grenades or aoe spells...

[WaterMage]

Other thing. If OwlCat ever decides to make a WH fantasy game, I hope that they make so you can only be a human from the Empire of Sigmar. Would be much better than having all races being reskins of humans.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Other thing. If OwlCat ever decides to make a WH fantasy game, I hope that they make so you can only be a human from the Empire of Sigmar. Would be much better than having all races being reskins of humans.

Watch as Owlcat does the exact opposite.

[WaterMage]

Watch as Owlcat does the exact opposite.

As much as I criticiize Rogue Trader, at least there you can't be a Ork or a Eldar rogue trader, which would make zero sense.

[UltraFan123]

If they do decide to add multiple races then lore logic dictates that the starting point should be different as well.

Like as a human you could start in either the empire or Bretonnia or even Kislev. While an ogre should obviously start in the Ogre Kingdoms, an ork in an ork band, etc etc.