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Being able to kill anyone is the ultimate player agency

For discussing role-playing video games, you know, the ones with combat.
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Being able to kill anyone is the ultimate player agency

Post by rusty_shackleford »

The title of this thread is going to get me put on a government list…

While playing Hero's Adventure I said that I'd do a post on what I think makes it so good and why it has such extensive player freedom. I thought on it for a bit, and it boils down to being able to kill anyone in the game.
This came up again recently in the Avowed thread. Outer Worlds, even as terrible as it is, is still a much better game than Avowed. Tim Gayn required that every character be killable while working on Outer Worlds, and this causes a major design shift in the game because the developers must account for any character simply not existing.

What makes BG3 feel so reactive? You can kill — get rid of — anyone, and the game must account for this.
What is a major reason Starfield is so much worse than Morrowind? Nearly everyone is flagged essential.

The fact that at any point any character other than the PC could simply not be there fundamentally changes how a game is designed. This requires the developer to inject player freedom into a game, even if the player has no intention of killing anyone they will benefit from the added reactivity. Characters that otherwise would be mandatory parts of a game can now simply be told to **** off, because it's just a small addition when the game was already designed with the idea that they simply may not be alive. Once developers are forced out of their linear box into thinking nonlinear they even start adding this sort of reactivity everywhere because they begin imagining various ways scenarios may be approached that they otherwise would have not thought of.

Every questline must be adjusted and have multiple redundancies for advancing. The game takes on something close to an emergent storyline, the player feels his experience has become unique.

I know someone is going to point out 'akshually X game has one or two unkillable NPCs!', I don't care. But it probably made the game worse for it.

What's your favorite game where anyone is killable? :pipe-hat:
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Post by wndrbr »

the amount of RPGs where you can kill most of the NPCs can be counted on fingers, and most of them are already well known among the people who have at least a minor interest in CRPGs.
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Post by Tinky Winky »

Morrowind
BTW stop being morrophobic.
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Post by Valter »

When I played FNV for the first time and learned what happened to Boone's wife, I made a beeline straight to the Legion stronghold and ended Caesar. I was baffled that I actually got to do what I wanted to do without anyone telling me to do it on a questlog. Fond memory.
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Post by Wretch »

Prey 2017.

By far the best imsim ever made and honestly one of the best games ever.
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Post by Oyster Sauce »

Being able to kill Caius Cosades adds nothing to a game. I don't randomly kill inoffensive NPCs that aren't threatening me to be epically random. BG3 would have been better if it had essential NPCs that just didn't try to rape you or talk about gay sex constantly.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Oyster Sauce wrote: March 6th, 2025, 01:50
Being able to kill Caius Cosades adds nothing to a game. I don't randomly kill inoffensive NPCs that aren't threatening me to be epically random. BG3 would have been better if it had essential NPCs that just didn't try to rape you or talk about gay sex constantly.
rusty_shackleford wrote: March 6th, 2025, 01:20
even if the player has no intention of killing anyone they will benefit from the added reactivity.
If BG3 was designed without this philosophy, characters like Halsin would be mandatory and you'd have no way to tell them to **** off.

Also, doesn't killing Caius Cosades cause the game to enter the 'doomed world' state? Morrowind isn't exactly a good example… ish. The parts of the game where it doesn't enter a "doomed world" state tend to be good examples.
Last edited by rusty_shackleford on March 6th, 2025, 01:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 6th, 2025, 01:20
This came up again recently in the Avowed thread. Outer Worlds, even as terrible as it is, is still a much better game than Avowed. Tim Gayn required that every character be killable while working on Outer Worlds, and this causes a major design shift in the game because the developers must account for any character simply not existing.
This causes a very silly scenario in Outer Worlds where you aren't allowed to be mean to the totally asexual lesbian girlbosses. This was by design, to quote the writer:
Kate Dollarhyde" wrote:
There’s another interesting wrinkle to the conversation with Parvati, when she opens up. In most RPGs like The Outer Worlds, players are granted a wide range of responses to every situation. You can be nice, you can be an *******, you can be indifferent. In this moment, when Parvati chooses to be vulnerable, the game explicitly limits your range of responses.
“I want that conversation to feel like a safe space for the players who are playing it and identify with it,” she said. “I don't want to pull the rug out from under them and say, ‘Haha, actually you're a joke,’ or ‘other people think you are a joke.’ [...] I don't want to write a homophobia simulator. [laughs] That's not what I got in the game writing for.”
…But you can kill her lover right infront of her. :roll:


Obviously developers would rather you not be allowed to do this, because they want to control your experience.
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Post by traxtan »

Wretch wrote: March 6th, 2025, 01:43
Prey 2017.

By far the best imsim ever made and honestly one of the best games ever.
I quit when the game forced me to listen to 3 tapes of an interracial lesbian couple for a main quest item.
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Post by Tinky Winky »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 6th, 2025, 01:51
"doomed world" state
The only essenital character in MW is Yagrum Bagarn the drawf, everyone else can be killed without softlocking the game.
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Post by Tweed »

You can kill almost everyone in Wasteland and the game is still completable.

You can kill everyone in Morrowind except Yagrum and still finish the game.

You can kill everyone in Fallout except Jacoren while he's in his fancy overseer chair. You can murder everyone in Fallout 2, it does kind of make the ending a downer though.

You can kill everyone in Questron 2 and you're supposed to.

You can kill everyone in Ultima I-III, but they get better, such is the nature of limited memory space. You can kill everyone in Ultima V, but Lord Blackthorn gets better after a day and the Shadowlords come back if you don't kill them right. You can murder most people in Ultima VII, but I think this will eventually lead to your demise, I can't remember, but you have to murder someone if you want to rob the mint, you can get LB to revive her afterwards and you'll need to if you want to cash in. Even so much as harming an innocent in Ultima VIII gets you blown up.

You can kill just about everyone in Deus Ex, certain people remain essential until their appointed time comes, most murder sprees have dialogue chewing you out about it.

You can kill just about everyone in Invisible War as well except at key points and those stupid magical no weapon zones. Several faction missions want you to murder various people anyway.

You can murder nearly all of the huline in Lands of Lore 2, this sets you on the dark path and will force you to kill Dawn and Baccada later.
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Post by maidenhaver »

I want a game where I can gun down immigrants as they leave the boat.
Weirdest cracker you know.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Tweed wrote: March 6th, 2025, 09:55
You can kill everyone in Morrowind except Yagrum and still finish the game.
Tinky Winky wrote: March 6th, 2025, 03:08
The only essenital character in MW is Yagrum Bagarn the drawf, everyone else can be killed without softlocking the game.
It's not the same, if you could kill anyone and continue then the main quest would be much more dynamic, it's just a failsafe.
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Post by KnightoftheWind »

I want a game where if you kill a plot-important NPC, the game then shifts dynamically to accommodate. Instead of some "doomed world" prompt like in Morrowind, you would have to do a different quest and get a better/worse ending. If you kill less important NPCs, but ones that are involved in the main questline nonetheless, then a different NPC would be slotted in to take their place and provide different quests or scenarios. For example if you happen to kill a general of some fort, but the main quest required you to speak to him, you would meet with someone else with a different personality or set of goals. Just a way of giving the player the impression that the world is always changing.
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Post by Lhynn »

I wouldnt say the ultimate, the ultimate would be total freedom, but it is rather impossible to achieve. I imagine thats what the whole AI techology for gaming will be heading though.

I much rather be able to state my opinions, thoughts and worldviews in a game than being able to simply murder people, though murdering is at least some small comfort when everyone in the game is gay and ********.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Lhynn wrote: March 7th, 2025, 00:55
I much rather be able to state my opinions, thoughts and worldviews in a game than being able to simply murder people, though murdering is at least some small comfort when everyone in the game is gay and ********.
Despite the design itself being about killing, it's actually not about whether you can kill someone or not.
If you can kill someone, then the game has already been constructed in such a way that you can rearrange the pieces without nearly as much work being required. It's why these games tend to have such extensive reactivity.

e.g.,
KnightoftheWind wrote: March 6th, 2025, 11:03
If you kill less important NPCs, but ones that are involved in the main questline nonetheless, then a different NPC would be slotted in to take their place and provide different quests or scenarios. For example if you happen to kill a general of some fort, but the main quest required you to speak to him, you would meet with someone else with a different personality
This happens all the time in say, BG3. Very frequent in similar games that allow you to kill anyone.
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Post by Wretch »

My sovl hvngers for kino. Qvick, drip feed the prey 2017 directly into my veins.
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Post by Tweed »

You can kill everyone in Undertale. :smug:

And fact of the matter is that the game is reactive to it on the same level as Deus Ex.
Last edited by Tweed on March 7th, 2025, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Wretch wrote: March 7th, 2025, 01:49
My sovl hvngers for kino. Qvick, drip feed the prey 2017 directly into my veins.
Have you played Arx Fatalis by chance?
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Post by Wretch »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 7th, 2025, 12:53
Wretch wrote: March 7th, 2025, 01:49
My sovl hvngers for kino. Qvick, drip feed the prey 2017 directly into my veins.
Have you played Arx Fatalis by chance?
No, though I would like to. I watched a few videos on it before and it looks great.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Wretch wrote: March 7th, 2025, 13:38
rusty_shackleford wrote: March 7th, 2025, 12:53
Wretch wrote: March 7th, 2025, 01:49
My sovl hvngers for kino. Qvick, drip feed the prey 2017 directly into my veins.
Have you played Arx Fatalis by chance?
No, though I would like to. I watched a few videos on it before and it looks great.
There's a modern sourceport if you decide to play it
https://arx-libertatis.org/
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Post by Norfleet »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 6th, 2025, 10:17
It's not the same, if you could kill anyone and continue then the main quest would be much more dynamic, it's just a failsafe.
Well, what do you mean by "kill anyone and continue the main quest"? If the main quest is "defeat the bad guy", and you kill everyone, you would have completed the main quest, yes?
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Outerworlds 2 has this again, adds a ton to reactivity because you have to design around everyone possibly being dead.
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Post by KOS-MOS »

rusty_shackleford wrote: October 27th, 2025, 09:40
Outerworlds 2 has this again, adds a ton to reactivity because you have to design around everyone possibly being dead.
So you can kill all the ******* and the ****?

Might not be acomplete trash game.
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Post by GentlemanCthulhu »

Couldn't agree more. Even though I almost never play murderhobo, just knowing that an NPC can be killed immediately elevates the experience and makes the game that much more immersive. That NPC, even if it's unnamed, is no longer set-dressing, but a tangible element of the experience whose removal can become a tool for player agency. Also it takes a lot of craft to make a game where every NPC can be killed without breaking the game, even though between broken quests (even main quests) and non-killable NPCs, I would always pick the former.
Last edited by GentlemanCthulhu on October 28th, 2025, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by asf »

in kenshi you can kill every npc without breaking the game

the fact that the game is already broken before the killing starts is not relevant
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Post by Maledict »

Murderhobo rights are everything.
Nothing breaks the game more than not being allowed to kill.
And devs always make the most annoying ***** unkillable.
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Post by TKVNC »

rusty_shackleford wrote: March 7th, 2025, 01:00
Lhynn wrote: March 7th, 2025, 00:55
I much rather be able to state my opinions, thoughts and worldviews in a game than being able to simply murder people, though murdering is at least some small comfort when everyone in the game is gay and ********.
Despite the design itself being about killing, it's actually not about whether you can kill someone or not.
If you can kill someone, then the game has already been constructed in such a way that you can rearrange the pieces without nearly as much work being required. It's why these games tend to have such extensive reactivity.

e.g.,
KnightoftheWind wrote: March 6th, 2025, 11:03
If you kill less important NPCs, but ones that are involved in the main questline nonetheless, then a different NPC would be slotted in to take their place and provide different quests or scenarios. For example if you happen to kill a general of some fort, but the main quest required you to speak to him, you would meet with someone else with a different personality
This happens all the time in say, BG3. Very frequent in similar games that allow you to kill anyone.
I purposefully killed all the Tieflings except Dammon (I went and googled his name) because he sells a unique set of armour you cannot get any other way if he survives to Baldur's Gate. I never made it to Baldur's Gate, since the game was too pozzed for me to continue.

I will say, being able to kill the blue ****** (he actually has negroid features) father, and the mother of the girl who dies to the snake in the Grove... Which avoids them killing Kagha at the party was really quite nice. I did it after seeing them kill Kagha, and wanted to see if I could prevent it. Turns out you can.
Last edited by TKVNC on February 11th, 2026, 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Norfleet »

maidenhaver wrote: March 6th, 2025, 10:13
I want a game where I can gun down immigrants as they leave the boat.
There's a classic involving defending your clay from an invading horde of illegal aliens, does that count?
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Post by Oyster Sauce »

TKVNC wrote: February 11th, 2026, 00:47
I purposefully killed all the Tieflings except Dammon (I went and googled his name) because he sells a unique set of armour you cannot get any other way if he survives to Baldur's Gate. I never made it to Baldur's Gate
Stop cheating