How should player shops/trade/auction houses be handled?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

One of the things I quite liked about Asian MMOs were the large bazaars and strips of player shops, especially in games like Voyage Century where the players had an actual stall. It felt a lot cooler than running up to an NPC to see everything on the auction house. Unfortunately for the player bazaar, there is usually not much actual player interaction here, since the shopowner is either AFK having left his computer running overnight or while at work, or you are clicking on an NPC created by the player that vendors their goods while the player is offline. Would there be any way to have the player shop idea, but you are actually interacting with the player behind the counter? I am not sure how to make this more interesting for the shopowner player, though, given that they would just be standing in place waiting for people to come to them, so either they would just be chatting in /general chat or /guild chat or be alt+tabbed out.

Retail WoW revamped its crafting a little bit in the last expansion which led to endgame crafting become a little more personal. Crafters can only make a few top end crafts per day, and people who seriously want those high end crafts will pay more than what people usually offer at the work orders NPC (and also typically want their item now rather than waiting until the next day for their work order to be fulfilled). So crafters hang out in cities advertising their services or waiting for someone to ask for a request in chat before running up to that player and doing the craft for them on the spot, and then hope to network with customers and that customers will spread good word of mouth about that crafter. So here you have actual player interaction between two people while they are online, rather than one person browsing a shop menu while the other is AFK.

[Oyster Sauce]

[J1M]

Solution: Don't give players inventories full of things they don't want.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Solution: Don't give players inventories full of things they don't want.

How would this work? If mobs don't drop lizard skins that can be sold to crafters or vendored for gil, then 1. how are items crafted? Where are the mats coming from if not from mobs? And 2. how are players supposed to accumulate some money? Are mobs instead just dropping raw gold upon death? Mobs dropping items that are then sold for gold seems a little more immersive. Or are players only supposed to get payouts from quest/missions completions, or a weekly stipend they get from being a member of the adventurer's guild or a city's elite guard and have to conserve it?

[Jordy]

First thing that sprung to mind. What a time to be alive.

[DagothGeas5]

I am not too experienced with Auction Houses, but I personally, as a usually free player, like when payed items can be bought in-game thanks to some players adding them (Black Desert Online or Star Wars Old Republic, for example, do this, though Old Republic has a conveniently capped credit amount that a free player can earn, and I find their things to be quite predatory compared to Black Desert, where there is no requirement besides matching the price for the item, also being possible to leave a request and wait for it to be fulfilled).
Something I dislike is when a game has a rare item that can be sold but, for example, drops from a mob, and those that wish to sell it on the Auction House have all these gadgets, maps and apps to spawn camp the mob, loot the item, and then sell it, not even wanting it for themselves, leaving those that do want it to be stuck in a loop. Not sure if this was World of Warcraft's case, as it has been quite a while, but I do recall having this issue and it became so exhausting it sucked the life out of my enjoyment for playing it.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

like when payed items can be bought in-game thanks to some players adding them

I greatly dislike when there is equivocation between ingame gold and real world money. Once it becomes possible to make that equivocation (ie, selling cash shop items on the AH, selling WoW tokens, etc), it then immediately devalues a lot of the activities in the game (doing ranked SPvP in GW2 for 5.3 gold per hour, farming hyperspawns in new WoW zones for mats to sell on the AH, farming Eureka NM drops or doing crafting in FF14, etc) and makes me lose motivation to do them because now you are thinking about how inefficient they are compared to just working a minimum wage job and then using that to buy gold, which is 50x more efficient.

Something I dislike is when a game has a rare item that can be sold but, for example, drops from a mob, and those that wish to sell it on the Auction House have all these gadgets, maps and apps to spawn camp the mob, loot the item, and then sell it, not even wanting it for themselves, leaving those that do want it to be stuck in a loop. Not sure if this was World of Warcraft's case, as it has been quite a while, but I do recall having this issue and it became so exhausting it sucked the life out of my enjoyment for playing it.

FF11 had this issue where there are a small handful of big powerful mobs out in the world called High Notorious Monsters, which have long respawn timers (can take days), have a (low) chance to drop BIS gear, but can only be tagged by one group. This wound up to the HNMs being camped by guilds and there being guild drama and months long waitlists to get a chance to be in the group that tags and kills the monster and maybe get the item. The solution that retail FF11 later came up with was to allow anyone to go to a spot and use an item (which takes some difficulty to obtain) to spawn the NM they want to fight at will (rather than removing people from the open world so they can all fight the same mob in their own instances). For some reason FF14 didn't adopt this idea and went back to NMs on long timers (but this time anyone can tag), so now you are back to groups camping and then it spawns and is killed while you are asleep and now you have to wait a few days for another shot. At least they don't drop gear.

[J1M]

Solution: Don't give players inventories full of things they don't want.

How would this work? If mobs don't drop lizard skins that can be sold to crafters or vendored for gil, then 1. how are items crafted? Where are the mats coming from if not from mobs? And 2. how are players supposed to accumulate some money? Are mobs instead just dropping raw gold upon death? Mobs dropping items that are then sold for gold seems a little more immersive. Or are players only supposed to get payouts from quest/missions completions, or a weekly stipend they get from being a member of the adventurer's guild or a city's elite guard and have to conserve it?

Random examples:

In Zelda (NES) you only pick up money or consumables you use. There are only a handful of weapon upgrades.

In an MMO context the lizard skins could be quest items that don't appear in inventory.

Another approach could be allowing players to scrap everything they pick up, turning it into currency or a smaller set of items used to increase player power like gems or runes from Diablo 2.

In many cases auction houses seem superfluous and gold can't really be used for gameplay reasons (soulbound items et al).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Solution: Don't give players inventories full of things they don't want.

How would this work? If mobs don't drop lizard skins that can be sold to crafters or vendored for gil, then 1. how are items crafted? Where are the mats coming from if not from mobs? And 2. how are players supposed to accumulate some money? Are mobs instead just dropping raw gold upon death? Mobs dropping items that are then sold for gold seems a little more immersive. Or are players only supposed to get payouts from quest/missions completions, or a weekly stipend they get from being a member of the adventurer's guild or a city's elite guard and have to conserve it?

Random examples:

In Zelda (NES) you only pick up money or consumables you use. There are only a handful of weapon upgrades.

In an MMO context the lizard skins could be quest items that don't appear in inventory.

Another approach could be allowing players to scrap everything they pick up, turning it into currency or a smaller set of items used to increase player power like gems or runes from Diablo 2.

In many cases auction houses seem superfluous and gold can't really be used for gameplay reasons (soulbound items et al).

Hrm, this sounds like a game in which there would be no trade going on, in which case there is little reason for people to be hanging out in town besides waiting for their group to form before heading out to fight. I wonder how this would affect the socialization of the MMO, as less people spending less time in town means less shooting the breeze in chat.

[Tweed]

Player trading sucks. I hate having to set up a mule overnight in the bazaar or sit in EC tunnel screaming over and over trying to sell some piece of ****.

[DagothGeas5]

like when payed items can be bought in-game thanks to some players adding them

I greatly dislike when there is equivocation between ingame gold and real world money. Once it becomes possible to make that equivocation (ie, selling cash shop items on the AH, selling WoW tokens, etc), it then immediately devalues a lot of the activities in the game (doing ranked SPvP in GW2 for 5.3 gold per hour, farming hyperspawns in new WoW zones for mats to sell on the AH, farming Eureka NM drops or doing crafting in FF14, etc) and makes me lose motivation to do them because now you are thinking about how inefficient they are compared to just working a minimum wage job and then using that to buy gold, which is 50x more efficient.

Something I dislike is when a game has a rare item that can be sold but, for example, drops from a mob, and those that wish to sell it on the Auction House have all these gadgets, maps and apps to spawn camp the mob, loot the item, and then sell it, not even wanting it for themselves, leaving those that do want it to be stuck in a loop. Not sure if this was World of Warcraft's case, as it has been quite a while, but I do recall having this issue and it became so exhausting it sucked the life out of my enjoyment for playing it.

FF11 had this issue where there are a small handful of big powerful mobs out in the world called High Notorious Monsters, which have long respawn timers (can take days), have a (low) chance to drop BIS gear, but can only be tagged by one group. This wound up to the HNMs being camped by guilds and there being guild drama and months long waitlists to get a chance to be in the group that tags and kills the monster and maybe get the item. The solution that retail FF11 later came up with was to allow anyone to go to a spot and use an item (which takes some difficulty to obtain) to spawn the NM they want to fight at will (rather than removing people from the open world so they can all fight the same mob in their own instances). For some reason FF14 didn't adopt this idea and went back to NMs on long timers (but this time anyone can tag), so now you are back to groups camping and then it spawns and is killed while you are asleep and now you have to wait a few days for another shot. At least they don't drop gear.

I wanted to clarify that the items in question were cosmetic only (skins), but I do agree wholeheartedly. I myself dearly miss when characters and whatever else was unlocked through the game, much like how now mounts are something that can be bought, or even exclusive, in World of Warcraft's newer in-game store.

Edit: I can't recall if it could be sold, but I recall there being a mount called "Time-Lost Proto Drake" that had a ridiculous spawn time. I was lucky enough to find it and get the mount, but I can't imagine going all the way for someone then to just kill it. Was trying to find the timer as it was strange when it said it is "only" 8 hours and found out they nerfed the spawn timer after Wrath of the Lich King. The original was 22 hours max.

[J1M]

How would this work? If mobs don't drop lizard skins that can be sold to crafters or vendored for gil, then 1. how are items crafted? Where are the mats coming from if not from mobs? And 2. how are players supposed to accumulate some money? Are mobs instead just dropping raw gold upon death? Mobs dropping items that are then sold for gold seems a little more immersive. Or are players only supposed to get payouts from quest/missions completions, or a weekly stipend they get from being a member of the adventurer's guild or a city's elite guard and have to conserve it?

Random examples:

In Zelda (NES) you only pick up money or consumables you use. There are only a handful of weapon upgrades.

In an MMO context the lizard skins could be quest items that don't appear in inventory.

Another approach could be allowing players to scrap everything they pick up, turning it into currency or a smaller set of items used to increase player power like gems or runes from Diablo 2.

In many cases auction houses seem superfluous and gold can't really be used for gameplay reasons (soulbound items et al).

Hrm, this sounds like a game in which there would be no trade going on, in which case there is little reason for people to be hanging out in town besides waiting for their group to form before heading out to fight. I wonder how this would affect the socialization of the MMO, as less people spending less time in town means less shooting the breeze in chat.

Can congregate around the mulcher machine in town. Plus we have learned cosmetics are the only real rewards in modern MMOs so people will go to town to decorate their house.

[rusty_shackleford]

I like that in EQ you can buy items from npcs that were sold by other players

[Xenich]

I dislike player trade economies because they operate outside of the games controls and tend to have negative influences to the games structure and progression of play.

Developers spend all this time outside of player trade to balance money streams from play, obstacles in content through various class/group balancing, drop rates, etc... in order to make sure a player follows a specific process to obtain their rewards and then the player economy throws that out the window allowing for numerous circumventions of that play balance.

You then have an economy that is established on no control principals to emulate actual markets (ie storage requirements/costs, taxes, fees, rent, regulation factors, and so many other factors that produce negatives or honestly assess risk) which allows gimmicks to be applied to promote this circumvention. That is, there is often no real risk vs reward, choice and consequence in these systems (yes, to an extent there is, but not realistic to a balance game play perspective)

I don't have a problem with player trade in general, but the economic systems really don't have any realistic implementation controls that are balanced inline with the adventuring side of things and so it is often used as means of circumvention of play.

I would think that it would be interesting to see a games economy be implemented from the ground up in a way that tries to implement various pros/cons, choice and consequence in that system that integrates within the games adventure, lore, and world side of things.

This would require the game to control trade though and through it implement these various "game play" concepts into the trade system to produce various gains/losses that would naturally exist in a realistic environment. With these types of systems, it would add a layer to the play which would truly require management and clever decisions in play rather than the often "gimmick" types of market manipulations players use to gain in the game economies.

Maybe it would be too complex, and it certainly would ruffle a lot of feathers for those who are used to the gimmicks, but I think it would provide a better fit to the game world and eliminate a lot of the easy means of a player to side step the adventure side of play.

[Xenich]

I like that in EQ you can buy items from npcs that were sold by other players

This.

But you could take it to another level. Make the entire system a game in and of itself. Could have various systems in play, even player attributes/skills/etc... to influence it, but also be a strategic process of play that tries to be its own "economic" system of play.

I am reminded of Space Rangers and its trade market system in how prices for selling and buying adjusted over time as you went from system to system and the like. I am not saying mirror that, but something where the player can actually play a market game with rules that have risks and rewards, choice and consequence (if the player chooses to sell/buy outside of the standard).

If the game controls it entirely, the developers can keep the system in balance to the game world and avoid issues of the trade market circumventing progression (ie players buying gold, manipulating the market, hoarding, twink sales to circumvent having to do the content, etc...)

Point is, the system eliminates the manipulation that often occurs and the negatives player economies have on games.

[Norfleet]

twink sales to circumvent having to do the content, etc...

Look, this is a core premise of how money works: Money buys goods and services. This includes the service of doing said content and the goods from said content. The moment you start adding increasing carveouts for what players can and cannot buy with their money, you tank the premise of money, and pretty soon you have a game where the currency is worthless because it can't buy anything that anyone would even want. Unless the item is a largely nonfunctional cosmetic trophy of achievement, it SHOULD be tradeable.

The failure of this model has an entire knock-on effect on the entire game design. Remember how you said you missed how games used to have "exploratory" features, which are now all entirely ruined by Wikkas and the like? This **** is why. In the Slightly-Older days, games had secrets that players kept to the end of the game's life. Why? Because now, instead of being a financially worthless thing you could only trade in for social capital by posting it, it was a trade secret, and loose lips sink ships. I made killings in games because I figured a specific way to access a highly desirable shiny that I then sold for filthy lucre. I never told anyone how to do it, because that would hurt my bottom line. Today, when someone finds something, they have nothing to gain from NOT telling everyone and thus reaping the social capital from doing so. Instead, you know, actual capital.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I don't see an issue with being able to use currency to buy gear off of the AH. You are still investing time playing the game to accumulate that money, the difference is that you apparently chose to get the money doing something more enjoyable than crafting or farming for a rare drop. Being able to buy gear is not mutually exclusive with making content irrelevant. You can still make players go through the content by requiring them to do a raid to finish a quest or a mission to progress through the main story, like in FF11, just that the player is not forced to farm the same raid over and over for gear like in WoW.

As for wikis and databases, the fix is to add a high level of randomization so that the game cannot be thoroughly mapped out onto a database. Ie, each player gets a quest with a different objective from each other player. Your quest mob spawns in a completely different location than that other player's quest mob. Your warrior might complete a quest or reach level 36 and learn a certain ability, whereas another player's warrior might reach level 36 and might not learn that ability, or complete a quest and get a different ability. Etc. IIRC one of those early 2000s MMOs like Asheron's Call or Conan tried obfuscating their game like that. Without a database, the only purpose of wiki pages would be to explain game how the game mechanics work, which points to a failure of the devs to adequately explain to the player how to engage with their game.

[Ranselknulf]

[Kain]

Unlimited storage, shop, auction house buttons, no trading tax. I play games to kill stuff, with friends or solo. Not for running & storage managing simulators.

[Xenich]

twink sales to circumvent having to do the content, etc...

Look, this is a core premise of how money works: Money buys goods and services. This includes the service of doing said content and the goods from said content. The moment you start adding increasing carveouts for what players can and cannot buy with their money, you tank the premise of money, and pretty soon you have a game where the currency is worthless because it can't buy anything that anyone would even want. Unless the item is a largely nonfunctional cosmetic trophy of achievement, it SHOULD be tradeable.

The failure of this model has an entire knock-on effect on the entire game design. Remember how you said you missed how games used to have "exploratory" features, which are now all entirely ruined by Wikkas and the like? This **** is why. In the Slightly-Older days, games had secrets that players kept to the end of the game's life. Why? Because now, instead of being a financially worthless thing you could only trade in for social capital by posting it, it was a trade secret, and loose lips sink ships. I made killings in games because I figured a specific way to access a highly desirable shiny that I then sold for filthy lucre. I never told anyone how to do it, because that would hurt my bottom line. Today, when someone finds something, they have nothing to gain from NOT telling everyone and thus reaping the social capital from doing so. Instead, you know, actual capital.

Except I don't buy into any of that ****. It was never a part of my play and I find the whole thing counter to actual game play and simply ********.

[Xenich]

I don't see an issue with being able to use currency to buy gear off of the AH. You are still investing time playing the game to accumulate that money, the difference is that you apparently chose to get the money doing something more enjoyable than crafting or farming for a rare drop. Being able to buy gear is not mutually exclusive with making content irrelevant. You can still make players go through the content by requiring them to do a raid to finish a quest or a mission to progress through the main story, like in FF11, just that the player is not forced to farm the same raid over and over for gear like in WoW.

As for wikis and databases, the fix is to add a high level of randomization so that the game cannot be thoroughly mapped out onto a database. Ie, each player gets a quest with a different objective from each other player. Your quest mob spawns in a completely different location than that other player's quest mob. Your warrior might complete a quest or reach level 36 and learn a certain ability, whereas another player's warrior might reach level 36 and might not learn that ability, or complete a quest and get a different ability. Etc. IIRC one of those early 2000s MMOs like Asheron's Call or Conan tried obfuscating their game like that. Without a database, the only purpose of wiki pages would be to explain game how the game mechanics work, which points to a failure of the devs to adequately explain to the player how to engage with their game.

It isn't about time.

spending 100's of hours camping easy coin mobs (or worse, ******* buying from RMT companies online) is not the same as working down into a difficult area of a dungeon that requires a solid group to kill a named for a specific rare drop. I have known many in EQ who were entirely too ******** to wear the gear they bought off the AH and because there were numerous people like that, there were key people who could do the content who would lock those camps down to market to them.

It is ********.

[Wretch]

I win.

[Norfleet]

Except I don't buy into any of that ****. It was never a part of my play and I find the whole thing counter to actual game play and simply ********.

Yes, but that's you. Retardation is a core element in how an economy functions. If nobody was ********, it would be impossible to sell anything to anyone, so money would have no purpose. Economics all operates on the Greater Fool Theory.

spending 100's of hours camping easy coin mobs

That's a problem with the money system already, if this even exists. If there's a thing in the game that is simply printing money, the economy is doomed to an inflationary spiral that renders the money worthless sooner or later.

[Xenich]

Except I don't buy into any of that ****. It was never a part of my play and I find the whole thing counter to actual game play and simply ********.

Yes, but that's you. Retardation is a core element in how an economy functions. If nobody was ********, it would be impossible to sell anything to anyone, so money would have no purpose. Economics all operates on the Greater Fool Theory.

spending 100's of hours camping easy coin mobs

That's a problem with the money system already, if this even exists. If there's a thing in the game that is simply printing money, the economy is doomed to an inflationary spiral that renders the money worthless sooner or later.

Usually always happens though with dupes and the like and that is kind of my point about economies (or bot farming for coin/items/etc... to produce cash injection). People are ******** and will go to excessive means to cheat game play because game economies have no practical controls.

Developers spend an excessive amount of time trying to balance out adventure game play to make sure everything is properly obtained through measured obstacles then completely ignore how the player economy circumvents it entirely.

I don't have a problem with player trade, just the gimmicks that they always turn into and the negative effects it has on some systems (more specifically EQ style games).

I just wish more attention was put into implementing an actual "game" to the economic side of things that inserts a balance of risk vs reward/choice and consequence which is regulated to the extent that they put into the adventure game.

[Ranselknulf]

I know, we can just make all items have decay / damage so they have to be replaced!

I fixed MMO economies men.

You're welcome.

[Norfleet]

Usually always happens though with dupes and the like and that is kind of my point about economies (or bot farming for coin/items/etc... to produce cash injection). People are ******** and will go to excessive means to cheat game play because game economies have no practical controls.

Developers spend an excessive amount of time trying to balance out adventure game play to make sure everything is properly obtained through measured obstacles then completely ignore how the player economy circumvents it entirely.

This is how economics works in the real world, too. We bot, dupe, and exploit in real life, too. How are players ******** for trying to work out how to win at a system intentionally engineered to keep them down? This is how the game is played. Plus, you know, coin farming only exists because devs put a coin farm in the game in the first place. If you didn't have magic money-printing spiders in the game, this **** wouldn't happen.

I just wish more attention was put into implementing an actual "game" to the economic side of things that inserts a balance of risk vs reward/choice and consequence which is regulated to the extent that they put into the adventure game.

Agree. But devs tend to be relatively naive about game-economics. Probably because most of them are Communists.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

devs tend to be relatively naive about game-economics.

How come only EVE Online was willing to spend its monthly subscription money to hire an economist? None of these other monthly sub and cash shop games are willing to do the same? Then again, I suppose that crosses over with games with humongous budgets and dev teams being unwilling to hire good writers too.

[Xenich]

Usually always happens though with dupes and the like and that is kind of my point about economies (or bot farming for coin/items/etc... to produce cash injection). People are ******** and will go to excessive means to cheat game play because game economies have no practical controls.

Developers spend an excessive amount of time trying to balance out adventure game play to make sure everything is properly obtained through measured obstacles then completely ignore how the player economy circumvents it entirely.

This is how economics works in the real world, too. We bot, dupe, and exploit in real life, too. How are players ******** for trying to work out how to win at a system intentionally engineered to keep them down? This is how the game is played. Plus, you know, coin farming only exists because devs put a coin farm in the game in the first place. If you didn't have magic money-printing spiders in the game, this **** wouldn't happen.

I just wish more attention was put into implementing an actual "game" to the economic side of things that inserts a balance of risk vs reward/choice and consequence which is regulated to the extent that they put into the adventure game.

Agree. But devs tend to be relatively naive about game-economics. Probably because most of them are Communists.

That is ultimately my point though. Without the "balance" of those consequences, in game economies are simply cheats without any consequence of play.

[Norfleet]

That is ultimately my point though. Without the "balance" of those consequences, in game economies are simply cheats without any consequence of play.

Well, I mean, the conversation is about how SHOULD, not how they end up being **** because they didn't. There shouldn't BE coin farms, and it's quite practical NOT to have coin farms. Just make sure that M1 is a fixed, known value. The moment you start allowing players to simply print more cash, especially through some kind of repetitive farming activity, you're going to introduce all that bot coin farming business, and inflation will rapidly skyrocket.

[rusty_shackleford]

Unlimited storage, shop, auction house buttons, no trading tax. I play games to kill stuff, with friends or solo. Not for running & storage managing simulators.

You'll have a dead economy because there was zero incentive for people who do play it for that