Pantheon: EA Release

[Xenich]

Biggest issue I see so far (depending on taste) is the Chevron system (ie elite group mobs that require groups to take down with a progression of ^ denoting power increase).

It can work, but the way they have it setup now, it is much more EQ2 like than EQ/Vanguard.

EQ didn't have a tiered mob system other than maybe powerful raid mobs. That is, they designed group content, but didn't "force" group play so, depending on mob and its abilities, the mobs were generally the same general strength for their level. This meant that if you could get a mob single, different types of group sizes and makeups would be able to handle it without being The Group™ (ie full group of Tank class, Healer class, CC class, DPS class)

Vanguard had elite type mobs, but tended to use them strategically for deeper dungeon progression (ie progression of "dots" to denote power increase) and so many areas in dungeons were normal and single "dots" to which as you went in deeper, or to specific areas you would gradually see an increase in "dots" on the mobs. This allowed groups to slowly push in that weren't "ideal" makeups or size. It still had the content blocking for areas they really wanted to require a solid group, but it was flexible.

EQ 2, was similar to vanguard in that manner but it used mostly "mob linking" to try and force group requirements (they did have "heroic" and "epic", but were used sparingly for specific cases). They tended to be mixed in so it was difficult to really progress, but... over all their power wasn't so bad that a skilled smaller/less optimal group could find ways to handle it until they got to certain bosses where it could be too much. Depending on dungeon, it was feasible to try with less than optimal groups, but... generally it could be an issue (note: I am not the EQ2 expert and my experience is beta/release for a short time as well as coming back much later).

In all of the above, it was still possible to handle the elite mobs with that imbalanced group. More difficult, but still doable depending on player skill, gear and ingenuity.

Pantheon on the other hand... a single ^ (at level) is super powerful with massive HP and damage to match. While it is still early and I have only gotten 1/2 the classes up to 10+, what I have noticed is... you need in many cases The Group™ . Dungeons are for the most part off-limits entirely without The Group™ and many world areas have chevron mobs are the same, but due to the "space" some people have found ways to get around it (ie a warrior kiting with their exceptional agro while a couple casters snare and nuke without worry). Dungeons though, obviously this tactic isn't practical so there is a definite roadblock here.

Many names in the world that are pop from PH are also Chevron, which usually results in a rag tag group working the spawn until it pops, then moving on (they are that tough).

To give you an idea, a level 15 shaman vs a level 6 (grey con) ^ chevron mob is often a gamble depending on its type. Some I have been able to handle (ie they are a caster and so the resist mechanisms come into play and it is doable, even so... they have a ton of HP). If it is a melee, I don't bother if they are a named, or they have special abilities that can do heavy damage (waylay is a hard hitting ability they will use with a 2 hander).

Point is, IMO risk vs reward is a bit imbalanced here because even if you have a full group, you still have to have key classes and due to the HP being ridiculous, you NEED extra DPS to handle them. Not to mention, if you pull anything above blue (as a full group) you also need to have debuff abilities and/or extra healers to deal with it regardless if you have The Tank™.

I know they still need to do a lot of tuning, but I think they really should consider either greatly reducing the chevron power progression or remove a lot of chevrons from various areas of dungeons, keeping them for more specific areas, named, etc...

The current mechanic doesn't feel natural, it feels very artificial in play due to the massive disparity between normal to chevron and its effect on the way I see people play is very noticeable. As it is now, most people solo waiting for the The Group™ balance to be filled, which often creates issues with time and turn over rate.

This was only a real issue in EQ if you planned to do deep dungeon areas or difficult bosses. In most cases people could rag tag a group, do some of the earlier rooms of a given dungeon if they didn't have several hours to play, or if they were waiting for more to become available to move in deeper. It felt more natural in play than this, so I hope they really pay attention to that dynamic and tune it better.

We will see, but like I said... it is early and classes still have a lot of fleshing out to be done, not to mention this may become less of an issue at higher levels where classes get more abilities to work with in which case I would say the early level dungeons would need to be tuned better.

[Xenich]

Well, they are almost to 7k steam peak played and it continues to grow. Servers are filling up. I was on one, it went packed, so I jumped to the most obscure empty one I could so I could test things out without having to compete for every resource constantly.

Now all the empty servers are pushing 1/2 full now and likely to be filled if it stays at this pace. At some point they are going to have to open up new servers, good news is that this is very easy for them with their tech. They can just open up another shard of the same server name which will make release balancing so much nicer if things get too heavy.

One thing I noticed is how people don't spend time to learn the classes or systems. Pantheon is certainly more complex in ability use, timing, and situation. If you spam skills, it can greatly reduce your effectiveness and I see a lot of people playing S-Tier classes, but somehow complaining that the class is gimped.

I have been working on Dire Lord and Paladin recently and they are absolute power houses. Maybe it will change as I get closer to 20, but 1-15 so far has been pretty good (with some slow downs until certain spell levels). I tweaked some with T1 crafted drop gear and they wreck things, gear definitely helps on that front, but even naked they do pretty well with the only real difference being top level con tries and that of being able to go non-stop.

Yep, Paladin/DL if you pick the right level range can non-stop kill, no resting, ever killing... Yeah... so much for "downtime" play apparently and even still, people *****.

A guy was complaining about how wizards have too much down time...

Ok... so wizards are the highest damage output in the game, not by a bit, but A LOT!

Wizard down time for full mana regen? 2-3 mins (without aids, buffs, etc...).

/sigh yeah... too much downtime, yep... sure... FFS!

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll probably check it out again when it leaves early access, it just felt very unfinished.

[Xenich]

I'll probably check it out again when it leaves early access, it just felt very unfinished.

Yeah, it has a ways to go in some areas. Game play is fun though and the classes are interesting as you go up the levels (mechanics get more depth).

I would say unless someone is just chomping at the bit for this type of game play (maybe @Kalarion ?), probably best to wait till release or at the least as it is closer and most of the base PH systems have been put in.

I gotta say, it could be a good game..

Though Joppa is already talking about a stupid Cosmetics store...(********).

Not sure if that will break it for me (I hate cosmetic stores with a passion and they rip off game play progression), but it also depends on if they have a special server with traditional rule sets. If they do that, I could care less, but I am noticing that QoL ******* are pushing hard and Joppa seems kinda pandering to them, so I have a feeling they are going to get their way.

If they do, and there is no rule set server, I will make a hard pass and wait for M&M.

Even so, the game play is good, but I have been down the ******** QoL game play and I am not wasting time on another stupid MMO progression like that.

[Xenich]

So apparently Druid class will be released on the 29th, likely with additional content, tweaks, etc...

[Xenich]

Downtime is completely out of whack in this game. Some classes can just go and go and go... it is ridiculous. I would rather have mobs give more exp and have more down time than this. It feels like I am playing an action arcade game.

You can play a DL or pally in the 10-15 range and kill for hours straight while never resting. Seriously... no stopping, just one mob to the next.

Many of the classes are like this as well, which is a real bummer for the ones that aren't fit with all the fancy heal/mana return abilities. Shaman's get a mana over time spell, Clerics get a straight 20% mana return spell, Mages get a mana bomb that returns mana in combat, etc...

All of them if you pick the right targets blue-yellow depending on class, you can just go like the energizer bunny.

Granted this is all on the "solo" mobs, but still... no wonder people are mostly soloing right now over grouping the chevrons who hit like a stadium fell on you.

[WaterMage]

Is this game a proper RPG or is another Barbie dressing/D3/Gear determines everything game?

[Xenich]

Is this game a proper RPG or is another Barbie dressing/D3/Gear determines everything game?

It is a gear focused game, yes... It is similar to EQ/Vanguard in that respect.

What other type of MMO would you use to compare that isn't?

[Xenich]

Take this with a grain of salt as itemization isn't finalized, nor are all the systems put in place, but this will give you the idea of their item inflation progression so far and how it appears to be expanding. Granted over time with expansions, like EQ this will become an inflation problem, but it appears to be a bit slower at least at the start. My guess would be that around 50, you might see +4-5 on stats and comparable other effects.

Edit: Yes, stats are accumulative (for those who are thinking D&D rules).

Level 6 Group Boss mob drops:

► Show Spoiler

Capture6.PNG

Level 13 Group Boss mob drops:

► Show Spoiler

Capture13.PNG

Level 32 Group Boss mob drops:

► Show Spoiler

Capture32.PNG

[Xenich]

Downtime is completely out of whack in this game. Some classes can just go and go and go... it is ridiculous. I would rather have mobs give more exp and have more down time than this. It feels like I am playing an action arcade game.

You can play a DL or pally in the 10-15 range and kill for hours straight while never resting. Seriously... no stopping, just one mob to the next.

Many of the classes are like this as well, which is a real bummer for the ones that aren't fit with all the fancy heal/mana return abilities. Shaman's get a mana over time spell, Clerics get a straight 20% mana return spell, Mages get a mana bomb that returns mana in combat, etc...

All of them if you pick the right targets blue-yellow depending on class, you can just go like the energizer bunny.

Granted this is all on the "solo" mobs, but still... no wonder people are mostly soloing right now over grouping the chevrons who hit like a stadium fell on you.

Update on this, mostly word of mouth, I am not in the 20+ been working on getting different classes up to 20 and only have two near the 20 range.

The claim is that exp severely slows down after 20+ to where in the mid 30's, dying once results in about 4-5 hours of exp time for a "warrior" to solo back (apparently you can continue to solo, but I am unsure what con the person was talking about). They said this would cut in 1/2 if they could go non-stop with a healer.

Currently at around 19, if I die I can make it back rather quickly (4-5 yellow mobs and I am done). Which my Dire Lord can easily mow through in about 5 - 10 mins or so solo.

I haven't needed to deal with kiting yet on the shaman, but I am feeling the need start to slowly become a thing as mobs start to hit harder (he is at 18 currently).

Kiting is definitely a thing in game. With the sprint mechanic, many classes can figure out a rhythm to it, even if they don't have a snare. For instance, shaman has no snare, but... has a endurance buff spell that aids in sprint length time. Combine that with another spell which acts like the EQ wizards shadow step (though you control your spawn to location by setting it, running then gating back to it instantly) and you can keep ahead of the mob with dots and your pet attacking it over time. I didn't mess with this much as I have been able to heal tank the mobs up to this point.

Haven't made it up far on the necro, but very early they get a snare like spell which when combined with sprint makes kiting your bread and butter. Oh and another thing, the concept of the Skellie pet on gear is it can wear anything, no holds bared so to speak. You can deck it out in full crafted, dropped, etc... and it will be a beast... but... if it dies. "poof". Mages as a balance summon all their gear to their pet, so no real loss, but definitely not as strong as a decked out skellie (eventually, currently now they are a bit weak).

I think at some point melee hits a wall due to mob HP/damage scaling up quickly, so the game may take an EQ turn at some point where only certain classes can reasonably solo, though I hear they are likely to keep adding solo content all the way up (mistake imo to "cater" to it rather than let class choice and creativity find solutions).

Cheveron mobs are still a major pita. They aren't EQ tough, they are like an EQ boss mob that decided to snort up several pounds of PcP and don a mech suit with a howitzer loaded on to it. Named cheverons are even worse with massive group based attacks (like a mini-raid).

Apparently the goal is to balance them out with an even progression into the content so lesser group numbers and makeups can handle various content while building a full group to handle the big stuff deeper into areas.

They are also considering changing to a FTE system or some adaption of it over the 50% kill rule (people are complaining about higher levels camping low level group spawns to get useful gear and some are demanding EQ 2 trivial loot code, may they burn in hell).

Anyway, game has a ways to go, but is enjoyable in the 1-20 range regardless.

[WaterMage]

What other type of MMO would you use to compare that isn't?

DDO. A game where I can solo reaper quests naked. And Shadowbane. A game where the best set of WLK gives less +attribute bonus than "traits" which you can pick in char creation and most powerful effects in items come with drawbacks.

[Xenich]

What other type of MMO would you use to compare that isn't?

DDO. A game where I can solo reaper quests naked. And Shadowbane. A game where the best set of WLK gives less +attribute bonus than "traits" which you can pick in char creation and most powerful effects in items come with drawbacks.

Yeah, completely different system than that, though the mastery system has some flavors of "character" based progression outside of gear, but I haven't seen it turned on to know how much it effects things.

I seriously doubt you will get your naked character experience, though as I said, some abilities scale with level and gear and while important, I really haven't parsed it to know "how" important it is in the grand scheme of things. I would count on it being a major factor though due to this style of game.

[WaterMage]

Does this game has the problem of "hp bloat"?

In EverQuest, I enjoyed low and mid levels however, each level up that I got, seems like mobs got way more hp than damage, fights start to take eternities to end. Enemies become sponges soaking multiple ice comets.

[Xenich]

Does this game has the problem of "hp bloat"?

In EverQuest, I enjoyed low and mid levels however, each level up that I got, seems like mobs got way more hp than damage, fights start to take eternities to end. Enemies become sponges soaking multiple ice comets.

I have only made it up to around 20 (been on hold recently waiting for more things before I bother trying out upper content). I haven't played much past that and most of the fights are ridiculously fast up to 20 (including group content).

Here is Halnir's cave which is 20+ group content. Average mob kill time with a single group is about 30 seconds. Personally I think it should take about a 1-2 minutes per mob for my tastes due to this groups makeup (they have no serious DPS classes).

Maybe it will get longer at higher levels, but I don't think by too much to be honest as I think they are trying to appeal to more modern audiences in terms of pace and flow (game feels a bit more spammy and action flow than I prefer).

So I would say, so far... as it concerns what you are saying, it doesn't seem to be, but obviously this could change.

[WaterMage]

Thanks for saving my time.

I will keep playing DDO.

I want mmos with spells like this > https://ddowiki.com/page/Wail_of_the_Banshee

Not minute longs to kill any trash mobs.

[Xenich]

Thanks for saving my time.

I will keep playing DDO.

I want mmos with spells like this > https://ddowiki.com/page/Wail_of_the_Banshee

Not minute longs to kill any trash mobs.

So 30 seconds to kill a mob is too slow?

I said I would like it to be longer, but I doubt it will be. If you factor in that they are a non-dps focused group in that video, and it takes 30 seconds to kill, chances are with some DPS focus it will be much faster.

I like DDO as well, but I prefer early DDO when it did take longer to kill mobs. As it is now, it is a spam run where you plow through groups of mobs in seconds, aka... WoW like.

I find that too action/arcade spammy and going away from the concept of endurance strategic play.

[WaterMage]

So 30 seconds to kill a mob is too slow?

For me, is. I coudln't like classic wow for it and a mob takes like 20 seconds to kill as an warlock. I really hate the idea "look, this mage can throw ice comets but any goblin can soak 66 ice comets". I hate when people can survive being backstabbed 34684641685 times. I prefer games where you kill and die faster. Not only RPGs, with shooters, I don't like much hero shooters but have hundreds of hours on Red Orchestra 2.

[rusty_shackleford]

new race releasing https://www.pantheonmmo.com/news/who-ar ... ildbloods/

[Xenich]

I haven't played it in a while. The game is too focused on "group" game in a way that forces a full balanced group approach. The mobs are so heavy on HP and damage that even if you are way above their level, it is a hassle to kill them (I couldn't take down a level 5 elite named at level 20). This may seem "fine" in concept, but it removes the ability for creative play and forces most people to sit around waiting for the "right classes" to be filled.

Contrast that with EQ (or many other MMOs of that era) where you could make due with clever approaches in play.

It makes no sense either, because they dumbed down a lot of basic concepts of play appealing to mainstream players (fast travel, death penalty, vision at night, etc...), but want to force a perfect group load out to even be able to handle the elite mobs or dungeons.

Pantheon is a bunch of mainstream hipsters trying to make an old school game.

[Ranselknulf]

I'm no longer "balls deep" in other games so I got around to giving this game a try.

It's early access still, and its missing some features that should debatably be present.

Here are some things I've noticed / Seen discussed and my thoughts.

Current Game Price is $39.99 : Probably a bit on the high side for a fully released MMORPG with subscription, but its still early access without subscription. I couldn't find anything definitive on the monetization scheme, but paying for server costs is as fundamental as the laws of thermo dynamics. If the company is going broke they will have to increase funds. I've been a fan of the pure subscription model since the 90's, but for some reason kids these days think it should be a pay once for box cost and play forever system on MMORPGs. Not sure why. Freemium is the alternative but that turns into the entire P2W hand waving and never ends well for a mmorpg. Forcing a subscription would likely reduce the amount of younger people playing this game, and that would be a good thing. I don't think the free to play, but pay to access higher tier levels or zones is a good model because thats where the armies of gold farming bots in china come from.

Tradeskills and Specialization: Each character chooses two tradeskills. There are about a dozen trade skills in the game (I haven't counted so get to work autists). The intent of the restriction is to force player socialization. Currently, the only way to sell items is by directly trading to another player. There is no "bazaar" or market place feature. I haven't discovered a zone where players shout to sell wares yet (if it exists) like the commonlands outside Freeport in everquest 1.

Banking, Item Transfers and Dropping Things: Unlike Everquest 1, you can't drop items on the ground for transferring between characters. This is a core features in Everquest 1 for those who played more than one character. It's not typically required in modern MMORPG's because of shared/common banking slots between characters, but that feature doesn't exist in Pantheon. I've seen people giving passionate arguments for both, and I'm not sure what direction Pantheon is going with it, but either way there needs to be a way to transfer items between your characters. Whether its the classic EQ1 "drop item on ground" method, or the shared bank slot method, I don't really care.

Leveling Pace: The leveling pace seems fine to me, if anything the crafting and combat skill up pace might be too rapid.

That's all I have time to write at the moment, I may add more later.

I'll leave you with my suggestion based on a couple hours of gameplay.

Overall Suggestion: If you are looking for something EQ adjacent and have extra cash go for it. If you are still enjoying the private server scene then I wouldn't pick up Pantheon in its current state. Pantheon is trying to do a lot of things, but its not fully there yet. It is enjoyable enough to play in its current state though, provided you are looking for something outside of the private server scene of everquest.

[Rienen]

While it's been months since I last played, I'll be the first to admit that the upcoming mount taming system does pique my interest, not necessarily from a collector's perspective, but as an avenue to explore and learn a new system. Pet classes and taming systems have always been something I've enjoyed in other games. So, this game adding one, even if it is just horses in the beginning, is a baby step in a good direction.

[Xenich]

I'm no longer "balls deep" in other games so I got around to giving this game a try.

It's early access still, and its missing some features that should debatably be present.

Here are some things I've noticed / Seen discussed and my thoughts.

Current Game Price is $39.99 : Probably a bit on the high side for a fully released MMORPG with subscription, but its still early access without subscription. I couldn't find anything definitive on the monetization scheme, but paying for server costs is as fundamental as the laws of thermo dynamics. If the company is going broke they will have to increase funds. I've been a fan of the pure subscription model since the 90's, but for some reason kids these days think it should be a pay once for box cost and play forever system on MMORPGs. Not sure why. Freemium is the alternative but that turns into the entire P2W hand waving and never ends well for a mmorpg. Forcing a subscription would likely reduce the amount of younger people playing this game, and that would be a good thing. I don't think the free to play, but pay to access higher tier levels or zones is a good model because thats where the armies of gold farming bots in china come from.

Tradeskills and Specialization: Each character chooses two tradeskills. There are about a dozen trade skills in the game (I haven't counted so get to work autists). The intent of the restriction is to force player socialization. Currently, the only way to sell items is by directly trading to another player. There is no "bazaar" or market place feature. I haven't discovered a zone where players shout to sell wares yet (if it exists) like the commonlands outside Freeport in everquest 1.

Banking, Item Transfers and Dropping Things: Unlike Everquest 1, you can't drop items on the ground for transferring between characters. This is a core features in Everquest 1 for those who played more than one character. It's not typically required in modern MMORPG's because of shared/common banking slots between characters, but that feature doesn't exist in Pantheon. I've seen people giving passionate arguments for both, and I'm not sure what direction Pantheon is going with it, but either way there needs to be a way to transfer items between your characters. Whether its the classic EQ1 "drop item on ground" method, or the shared bank slot method, I don't really care.

Leveling Pace: The leveling pace seems fine to me, if anything the crafting and combat skill up pace might be too rapid.

That's all I have time to write at the moment, I may add more later.

I'll leave you with my suggestion based on a couple hours of gameplay.

Overall Suggestion: If you are looking for something EQ adjacent and have extra cash go for it. If you are still enjoying the private server scene then I wouldn't pick up Pantheon in its current state. Pantheon is trying to do a lot of things, but its not fully there yet. It is enjoyable enough to play in its current state though, provided you are looking for something outside of the private server scene of everquest.

As for leveling pace, my understanding when I played a while ago was that skill ups for crafting are fast for testing purposes. Expect not only for it to slow down a lot, but to have it closer to original EQ (ie you aren't guaranteed a skill up on every combine).

So how are the group mobs now? They remove them, tone them down or anything?

[Xenich]

BTW, I am up for playing this again, but honestly... I only want to do it with a full group (and no, I don't want to search for guilds out there, even though there are some good guys and I have joined and grouped with them before, I would rather it be RPGHQ peeps). So... if we have enough (need a minimum of a full group, and... it will have to be coordinated for class selection to balance... because Pantheon group game play demands it), I am up for playing this coordinated with anyone if we can get the numbers and work it out.

Let me know if we can achieve this, because my problems with the game are mostly its "group" requirements, the rest is tolerable and overall the game is quite enjoyable, but you MUST have those minimums... (ie a balanced group of classes). We get that, I think the game could be fun for us...

[Ranselknulf]

I'm fairly bad about consistent game groups, but if I'm online can try to find me using a secret code word.

Not sure I want to dump a lot of hours in this game since it will be doing server wipes, but I wanted to test it out a bit.

[Ranselknulf]

I'm no longer "balls deep" in other games so I got around to giving this game a try.

It's early access still, and its missing some features that should debatably be present.

Here are some things I've noticed / Seen discussed and my thoughts.

Current Game Price is $39.99 : Probably a bit on the high side for a fully released MMORPG with subscription, but its still early access without subscription. I couldn't find anything definitive on the monetization scheme, but paying for server costs is as fundamental as the laws of thermo dynamics. If the company is going broke they will have to increase funds. I've been a fan of the pure subscription model since the 90's, but for some reason kids these days think it should be a pay once for box cost and play forever system on MMORPGs. Not sure why. Freemium is the alternative but that turns into the entire P2W hand waving and never ends well for a mmorpg. Forcing a subscription would likely reduce the amount of younger people playing this game, and that would be a good thing. I don't think the free to play, but pay to access higher tier levels or zones is a good model because thats where the armies of gold farming bots in china come from.

Tradeskills and Specialization: Each character chooses two tradeskills. There are about a dozen trade skills in the game (I haven't counted so get to work autists). The intent of the restriction is to force player socialization. Currently, the only way to sell items is by directly trading to another player. There is no "bazaar" or market place feature. I haven't discovered a zone where players shout to sell wares yet (if it exists) like the commonlands outside Freeport in everquest 1.

Banking, Item Transfers and Dropping Things: Unlike Everquest 1, you can't drop items on the ground for transferring between characters. This is a core features in Everquest 1 for those who played more than one character. It's not typically required in modern MMORPG's because of shared/common banking slots between characters, but that feature doesn't exist in Pantheon. I've seen people giving passionate arguments for both, and I'm not sure what direction Pantheon is going with it, but either way there needs to be a way to transfer items between your characters. Whether its the classic EQ1 "drop item on ground" method, or the shared bank slot method, I don't really care.

Leveling Pace: The leveling pace seems fine to me, if anything the crafting and combat skill up pace might be too rapid.

That's all I have time to write at the moment, I may add more later.

I'll leave you with my suggestion based on a couple hours of gameplay.

Overall Suggestion: If you are looking for something EQ adjacent and have extra cash go for it. If you are still enjoying the private server scene then I wouldn't pick up Pantheon in its current state. Pantheon is trying to do a lot of things, but its not fully there yet. It is enjoyable enough to play in its current state though, provided you are looking for something outside of the private server scene of everquest.

As for leveling pace, my understanding when I played a while ago was that skill ups for crafting are fast for testing purposes. Expect not only for it to slow down a lot, but to have it closer to original EQ (ie you aren't guaranteed a skill up on every combine).

So how are the group mobs now? They remove them, tone them down or anything?

Definitely still takes quite a bit to level and I'm only about level 10.

A game with upcoming server wipes because its in "testing phase" shouldn't required thousands of hours to get to max level.

[Xenich]

I'm no longer "balls deep" in other games so I got around to giving this game a try.

It's early access still, and its missing some features that should debatably be present.

Here are some things I've noticed / Seen discussed and my thoughts.

Current Game Price is $39.99 : Probably a bit on the high side for a fully released MMORPG with subscription, but its still early access without subscription. I couldn't find anything definitive on the monetization scheme, but paying for server costs is as fundamental as the laws of thermo dynamics. If the company is going broke they will have to increase funds. I've been a fan of the pure subscription model since the 90's, but for some reason kids these days think it should be a pay once for box cost and play forever system on MMORPGs. Not sure why. Freemium is the alternative but that turns into the entire P2W hand waving and never ends well for a mmorpg. Forcing a subscription would likely reduce the amount of younger people playing this game, and that would be a good thing. I don't think the free to play, but pay to access higher tier levels or zones is a good model because thats where the armies of gold farming bots in china come from.

Tradeskills and Specialization: Each character chooses two tradeskills. There are about a dozen trade skills in the game (I haven't counted so get to work autists). The intent of the restriction is to force player socialization. Currently, the only way to sell items is by directly trading to another player. There is no "bazaar" or market place feature. I haven't discovered a zone where players shout to sell wares yet (if it exists) like the commonlands outside Freeport in everquest 1.

Banking, Item Transfers and Dropping Things: Unlike Everquest 1, you can't drop items on the ground for transferring between characters. This is a core features in Everquest 1 for those who played more than one character. It's not typically required in modern MMORPG's because of shared/common banking slots between characters, but that feature doesn't exist in Pantheon. I've seen people giving passionate arguments for both, and I'm not sure what direction Pantheon is going with it, but either way there needs to be a way to transfer items between your characters. Whether its the classic EQ1 "drop item on ground" method, or the shared bank slot method, I don't really care.

Leveling Pace: The leveling pace seems fine to me, if anything the crafting and combat skill up pace might be too rapid.

That's all I have time to write at the moment, I may add more later.

I'll leave you with my suggestion based on a couple hours of gameplay.

Overall Suggestion: If you are looking for something EQ adjacent and have extra cash go for it. If you are still enjoying the private server scene then I wouldn't pick up Pantheon in its current state. Pantheon is trying to do a lot of things, but its not fully there yet. It is enjoyable enough to play in its current state though, provided you are looking for something outside of the private server scene of everquest.

As for leveling pace, my understanding when I played a while ago was that skill ups for crafting are fast for testing purposes. Expect not only for it to slow down a lot, but to have it closer to original EQ (ie you aren't guaranteed a skill up on every combine).

So how are the group mobs now? They remove them, tone them down or anything?

Definitely still takes quite a bit to level and I'm only about level 10.

A game with upcoming server wipes because its in "testing phase" shouldn't required thousands of hours to get to max level.

Unless it has changed, it speeds up when you learn the game more, or have certain classes.

I can level to 10 honestly, if I remember right with 4 or so hours depending on class. 10-20 takes a bit longer, but is still too fast IMO.

1-20 is easy solo game for most classes (though some will struggle depending on your experience).

The 20+ game becomes a slog last I played, but... I think it is a better representation of what the leveling speed should be.

My biggest gripes outside of the group based mobs not allowing for imbalanced groups or clever smaller number teams, is that combat is WAY too fast and downtime is way too short. This is from an EQ perspective though, as some people think being able to med to full mana in 2 mins is too long (they would croak if they had to spend 10-15 mins or more getting mana back) and like the actiony fast paced spam combat (and it is very spammy, especially when you are using group reactives).

It needs to remove all the fast travel points, and it needs a full naked corpse recovery, not the weak system is has atm, which is really not a penalty at all, especially with how little exp penalties are. Most of the time it takes me very little time to make back an exp loss even solo.

My hope was that they would do a "special ruleset" server at some point once it released to balance out all of the mainstream garbage they allowed in, but I am not sure that will ever happen.

Other than that, the game is fun though... Honestly, the group design is the worst case for me, it literally kills the game for many people. I played early EQ, need a group to do deep dungeons and difficult content, but it was nothing like this game... unless they changed the balance, you MUST have the "advertised" class mixes and no amount of clever play will do, have the Holy Trinity (and full party with the needed DPS), or don't bother going to the dungeons or doing most of the group content.

[Ranselknulf]

Thanks for the information. I think the game is fine to play as is, just the server wipes seems like a weird and unclear dynamic at the moment.

In general (in current year), if a mmorpg is expecting to wipe servers, then they usually provide cosmetic rewards such as titles/gear/mounts etc for playing on the server and contributing to the test.

It almost seems like Pantheon is treating this as a "release" but with no incentive to actually keep playing except that it doesn't currently have a subscription.

Adding to the noise is the fact that most kids these days expect no subscription as a baseline standard for games, so having a wipe and then adding a subscription after is what seems a bit extra to people.

In general, I think wipes are fine as long as there are clear timelines or mile markers that, and at least incentivize the unpaid play testers with something. Even if it is just meaningless cosmetic fluff.

[Xenich]

Thanks for the information. I think the game is fine to play as is, just the server wipes seems like a weird and unclear dynamic at the moment.

In general (in current year), if a mmorpg is expecting to wipe servers, then they usually provide cosmetic rewards such as titles/gear/mounts etc for playing on the server and contributing to the test.

It almost seems like Pantheon is treating this as a "release" but with no incentive to actually keep playing except that it doesn't currently have a subscription.

Adding to the noise is the fact that most kids these days expect no subscription as a baseline standard for games, so having a wipe and then adding a subscription after is what seems a bit extra to people.

In general, I think wipes are fine as long as there are clear timelines or mile markers that, and at least incentivize the unpaid play testers with something. Even if it is just meaningless cosmetic fluff.

To be fair, you can't allow people to keep their characters when you are dead in the middle of development. They aren't in an open beta, they are still heavy in alpha, which means they are adding content, systems, etc... and constantly moving them around, adjusting them, etc... in fact, they are still designing new content as they are doing this.

Not only does this create numerous issues on the back end to try and keep player data as serious changes to the systems are being made, but it also allows players numerous means to take advantage of bugs and exploits, as well as poorly thought out solutions as place holders for various content. Consider that recipes for crafting only dropped via chests at the start and this was not the intended way to do this, but a stop gap measure to allow it into the game. It was HEAVILY abused by the player base, heck... I farmed them and had stacks of all the recipes for every trade and item sitting on alt characters (you can store these within your character trade knowledge area).

Add in the fact that currently trade skill speed is insanely fast with guaranteed skill ups and it takes much less product to max it out fast. Then consider this is a competitive trade environment, with contested content and you have a big problem come release where all the EA players used bugs, exploits, and easy systems to max out characters without effort and collect resources to extreme levels to both corner the markets as well as lock down the resources easily come release.

There are numerous problems with allowing testing content to be used for release in all areas of the game and systems. It is not simply a bad idea, but a BIG NO NO if you don't want your game to be be crap on release.

For those who dislike this, best to wait for release to be honest, or... don't pry at the game like you are trying to "win" it, use it as a means to experience its features, play around with different approaches, etc... so that if you do like the game, come release you will have a good idea as to what you truly want to focus on and how you would like to play.

I played a ton of Alphas/Betas over the decades and Testing play isn't for everyone, it is what it is... testing.

As for why... EA is an easy way for them to get some more funding through their testing. I don't approve of EA entirely, but for some small studios, it makes sense IF they have a solid plan and use it wisely. So far, I wouldn't say they are. I don't think they had a solid plan on a lot of things because they have no solid foundation in their systems when it comes to peoples feedback. I watched the streams and Joppa seems to spend more time trying to "please" people than he does outlying a clear direction and convincing people this is best. He takes far too much input in a way that I think is detrimental to the games design progression.

It is what it is though, so we will see. It is a game that has a lot of potential, but unfortunately, I think it will be squandered, much like it has in the past.

[Ranselknulf]

I understand the bug and exploit concerns.

Most MMORPG's get around this by making "live test servers" that players have a bit more latitude to exploit bugs in the interest of "testing"

[Xenich]

I understand the bug and exploit concerns.

Most MMORPG's get around this by making "live test servers" that players have a bit more latitude to exploit bugs in the interest of "testing"

I think I remember something talked about by Joppa on this. If I remember right (don't hold me to it), I think there is a plan to allow the EA players to be put on a server along these lines, like a test server so to speak after release. Not sure though, but I can remember it being discussed to some extent.