What is the LEAST gear dependent mmo?

[WaterMage]

I'm sick of endless gear farming. from WoW and its clones. I wanna know games that does it differently than wow and its clones. I want my char to become stronger and more powerful not to find stat stickie items that "make" him more powerful. I'm sick of everyone being a clone and the unique difference being its gear. This is not a RPG, is a Barbie dressing game/Diablo 3 clone.

In single player RPGs, is not uncommon to highly skilled players to beat Diablo 1/2 naked, to beat souls like naked, etc. With mmos, the unique mmo which I can solo stuff naked that I know is Dungeons & Dragons Online and Shadowbane. In DDO, I can solo quests in Reaper difficulty NAKED. I also have heard about Mortal Online 2 but not that sure. Most of the power is knowledge that is maintaining in your char even when(not if) you die and lose all gear. Kotor 1/2 is not very gear dependent mainly for Jedi Consulars but swtor is.

[asf]

https://www.starstable.com/en/

[Statesman]

If you can stomach the wokeness, Guild Wars 2 would fit your bill. Stat cap hasn't changed since release, the game relies on sidegrades with different attribute distributions to fit particular/niche builds.

You can do everything on Exotic Gear (essentially free max lvl equipment). The actual endgame equipment (Ascended) has slightly better stats (around 5%), but it is still relatively easy to get. Then there is Legendary Gear, which has the same stats as Ascended, but allows you to freely change between attribute combinations when out of combat.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

ACE Online/Air Rivals. IIRC most of your stats came from the level up points you invest into the attributes on your character sheet. The time required to level up started ballooning massively around the level 70 to 80 range. I remember my dad would spend a whole evening levelgrinding in the asteroid level and his EXP bar would barely move like 5% of a level. So most veteran players maxxed out at around level 70 or 80ish before abandoning levelling entirely and just focusing on the faction war PvP. There was a level leaderboard and only like a small handful of players managed to get to high 90s or the 100s or whatever the max level range was. There is gear, but for PvP IIRC most people just used the best NPC shop gear and enhanced that. Only a few would bother farming the world bosses trying to craft the boss armors. Private servers give massive exp boosts (like 500%+) so you finish out your levelling fast and jump into the faction war PvP more quickly. Victory in the PvP boiled down to 1. who was the more skilled player with their abilities and flying their jet, and 2. which faction coordinated better (ie killing enemy healers, bombarding enemy tanks, M-gears healing or summoning in players in the backlines, etc).

Eve Online: while there is a large ship tier progression system of frigates < destroyers < cruisers < battlecruisers < battleships < carriers < dreadnoughts < motherships < titans (and several ships having alternate versions with better stats), this is a game where when your ship blows up, it actually blows up and you lose almost everything invested in it. So for regular PvP, most people instead just buy a lot of backup basic frigates and destroyers (and maybe Cruisers) and outfit them with cheap modules and ammo and then fly out to have some fun, and if they blow up then so what? You have a warehouse of more so you can jump straight back into the action. So for the PvP, the only real character progression left is their character's skills, which are not levelled up through gameplay but rather they are scheduled to be trained in real time even while the player is offline. So it can take years of being subscribed for your character to max out the skills, which is why there was such a big secondhand market for buying other people's accounts that had characters with lots of high skill in certain areas, though IIRC this market was then officiated by the devs and you can now legally trade characters. Traditional gear progression of buying bigger and better ships and equipment only really applies to players who focus on PvE missions (often mocked as "carebears", and are often a target by PvPers out of petty spite).

If you can stomach the wokeness, Guild Wars 2 would fit your bill. Stat cap hasn't changed since release, the game relies on sidegrades with different attribute distributions to fit particular/niche builds.

You can do everything on Exotic Gear (essentially free max lvl equipment). The actual endgame equipment (Ascended) has slightly better stats (around 5%), but it is still relatively easy to get. Then there is Legendary Gear, which has the same stats as Ascended, but allows you to freely change between attribute combinations when out of combat.

The problem with GW2 is that you very quickly reach the level cap of 80 (the level cap since the base game released in 2012), and then there is very little powering up your character's attributes past that. You can unlock and equip an Elite Specialization which gives you a raw power increase over just running three Vanilla talent trees, and then in End of Dragons you can get the Jade Bot that allows you to interact with the power stations around Cantha to get a slight stat increase and 30 seconds of every buff in the game (like cooldown reduction, increased crit rate, etc) each time you enter combat. And then that's it. The expansions are about learning alternative abilities you can swap out on your hotbar or learning new mounts to use, but your character doesn't really become straight up more powerful.

[rusty_shackleford]

if it doesn't have progression then it's not an RPG, it's just an action game

[WaterMage]

uild Wars 2

Sorry but you can't even use abilities without gear. Even classes all about unarmed fighting depends on the gear.

You mentioned "stats" on gear. I really hate this BS.

What is more interesting?

Magical Sword in old school CRPG - This sword was forged by a order of Paladins to fight undeads. It deals radiant damage, has double critical chance against undead and deal +2d6 damage on undead. Bypass incorporability"

Stat stickie wow clone Barbie dressing - Generic purple sword. Increases your muscle mass by a arbitrary amount, increases your reflexes by another arbitrary amount and your IQ by a arbitrary amount"

We shouldn't have stat stickie itemization in ANY game. Make magical item do interesting stuff instead of replacing your character sheet.

if it doesn't have progression then it's not an RPG, it's just an action game

This.

99% of mmos nowadays are merely action barbie dressing games.

[Statesman]

The problem with GW2 is that you very quickly reach the level cap of 80 (the level cap since the base game released in 2012), and then there is very little powering up your character's attributes past that. You can unlock and equip an Elite Specialization which gives you a raw power increase over just running three Vanilla talent trees, and then in End of Dragons you can get the Jade Bot that allows you to interact with the power stations around Cantha to get a slight stat increase and 30 seconds of every buff in the game (like cooldown reduction, increased crit rate, etc) each time you enter combat. And then that's it. The expansions are about learning alternative abilities you can swap out on your hotbar or learning new mounts to use, but your character doesn't really become straight up more powerful.

Well, reaching the level cap and getting non-levelling gear is meant to be the tutorial. And while there are other ways to powerup your character besides Elite Specs (runes/sigils, relics, infusions, masteries), most of the progress does end up being turning the knowledge acquired by playing into power.

Sorry but you can't even use abilities without gear. Even classes all about unarmed fighting depends on the gear.

You mentioned "stats" on gear. I really hate this BS.

You can use abilities without equipment. Hell, even base Engineers can solo stuff just fine naked without elite specs. And in any case, all of your examples are games with "stats on gear" as an option (like pretty much every other RPG in existence).

What is more interesting?

Magical Sword in old school CRPG - This sword was forged by a order of Paladins to fight undeads. It deals radiant damage, has double critical chance against undead and deal +2d6 damage on undead. Bypass incorporability"

Stat stickie wow clone Barbie dressing - Generic purple sword. Increases your muscle mass by a arbitrary amount, increases your reflexes by another arbitrary amount and your IQ by a arbitrary amount"

Both are equally boring, one simply has a more flavorful description.

[Norfleet]

I'm sick of endless gear farming. from WoW and its clones. I wanna know games that does it differently than wow and its clones. I want my char to become stronger and more powerful not to find stat stickie items that "make" him more powerful. I'm sick of everyone being a clone and the unique difference being its gear. This is not a RPG, is a Barbie dressing game/Diablo 3 clone.

I dunno, probably something match-based, with fixed classes/units. Something like Steam Fortress probably doesn't have much in the way required gear-grinding. Maybe one of those DOTA clones? Or that Fort game that the kids these days are into.

Did you also want this game to be an RPG on top?

[WaterMage]

Did you also want this game to be an RPG on top?

If is like Shadowbane, is OK for me.

See at 12:45 of this video



It has deep character building and no """meta""". Is all about rock paper scissors with lots and lots of options.

Both are equally boring, one simply has a more flavorful description.

One makes sense in a generic fantay world. Another is pure gamey.

reaching the level cap and getting non-levelling gear is meant to be the tutorial

That is BS.

The game should start on char creation screen, not at lv cap. Why even have leveling in such case?

[Tweed]

Used to be UO, but that hasn't been true since Age of Shadows.

[rusty_shackleford]

If you like pvp, I think Albion online is up there. Gear is, by design, meant to be rather easy to replace.

[Vergil]

FFXIV. Its more of a ***** dependent MMO

[Val the Moofia Boss]

FFXIV.

I would say FF14 is very gear dependent, as there is a large difference between a fresh level 50/60/70/80/90/100 character still wearing questing gear, versus another player of the same level who is wearing the final tier of gear for that level. A fresh newly dinged level 100 character would not be able to get a party invite into the entry level extreme trial, not without spending some time (or gil) raising their ilevel first. FF14 doesn't even let you continue the main story chapters added in the expansion patches without gearing up, as there is an ever increasing minimum ilevel requirement to enter the patch story dungeons and boss fights, even to do the dungeons with NPC party members. Every other patch introduces a new tier of gear that powercreeps the last tier of gear. If you are a new player, then you every 10 levels you can just buy the final tier of gear that is available for that level (Ironworks for level 50, Shire for 60, Scaevan for 70, Cryptlurker for 80, and Credendum for 90). If you hit the current level cap of 100, then in order to continue becoming more powerful (and to get into parties doing the latest content like the Chaotic Raid) you have to engage in the gear treadmill/borrowed power scam where you have to either do your weeklies to get a limited currency or spend gil on the auction house to buy the current highest tier of gear, which will be made available for easily acquired daily roulette currency come the next patch and powercrept by a new tier of gear.

It is only in a few pieces of side content that your character's strength is not primarily derived from your gear: Field Operations (Eureka and Bozja, operates like FF11 lite where you have a separate level just for those zones and lose exp upon death), Deep Dungeon (Diabloe-esque roguelite dungeons with a separate level), and PvP (where everyone has the same stats and you have completely separate hotbars, and abilities work differently than in PvE).

I would argue that FF11 is less gear dependent (era, not retail FF11 which has WoW/FF14-esque item level stuff with huge variances in powerlevel of gear at the same level), as you can go 10 to 20 levels without updating your wardrobe, and this is acceptable because 1. money and items are extremely difficult to come by especially as a new player, and 2. FF11 is a party based game where the only player who is in critical need of having up to date good gear would be the tank who is getting beat up. Once you ding level 75, you can still get into content with you level 50 job equipment.

[Vergil]

FFXIV.

I would say FF14 is very gear dependent, as there is a large difference between a fresh level 50/60/70/80/90/100 character still wearing questing gear, versus another player of the same level who is wearing the final tier of gear for that level. A fresh newly dinged level 100 character would not be able to get a party invite into the entry level extreme trial, not without spending some time (or gil) raising their ilevel first. FF14 doesn't even let you continue the main story chapters added in the expansion patches without gearing up, as there is an ever increasing minimum ilevel requirement to enter the patch story dungeons and boss fights, even to do the dungeons with NPC party members. Every other patch introduces a new tier of gear that powercreeps the last tier of gear. If you are a new player, then you every 10 levels you can just buy the final tier of gear that is available for that level (Ironworks for level 50, Shire for 60, Scaevan for 70, Cryptlurker for 80, and Credendum for 90). If you hit the current level cap of 100, then in order to continue becoming more powerful (and to get into parties doing the latest content like the Chaotic Raid) you have to engage in the gear treadmill/borrowed power scam where you have to either do your weeklies to get a limited currency or spend gil on the auction house to buy the current highest tier of gear, which will be made available for easily acquired daily roulette currency come the next patch and powercrept by a new tier of gear.

It is only in a few pieces of side content that your character's strength is not primarily derived from your gear: Field Operations (Eureka and Bozja, operates like FF11 lite where you have a separate level just for those zones and lose exp upon death), Deep Dungeon (Diabloe-esque roguelite dungeons with a separate level), and PvP (where everyone has the same stats and you have completely separate hotbars, and abilities work differently than in PvE).

I would argue that FF11 is less gear dependent (era, not retail FF11 which has WoW/FF14-esque item level stuff with huge variances in powerlevel of gear at the same level), as you can go 10 to 20 levels without updating your wardrobe, and this is acceptable because 1. money and items are extremely difficult to come by especially as a new player, and 2. FF11 is a party based game where the only player who is in critical need of having up to date good gear would be the tank who is getting beat up. Once you ding level 75, you can still get into content with you level 50 job equipment.

Yea it was the set up to a joke not a real critique

[Statesman]

One makes sense in a generic fantay world. Another is pure gamey.

A weapon making its wielder stronger is about as gamey as it having conditional damage, and both could make sense within a generic fantasy world.

reaching the level cap and getting non-levelling gear is meant to be the tutorial

That is BS.

The game should start on char creation screen, not at lv cap. Why even have leveling in such case?

The game starts at the character creation screen, but the gear grind ends at level cap.

[WaterMage]

Albion

They market the game as "you are what you wear"

Is peak Barbie dressing/d3 game.

Ultima Online, Mortal Online 1/2 and ShadowBane are Sandbox mmos with much less gear dependency. Mainly Shadowbane.

I would argue that FF11 is less gear dependent

I tried to check it but couldn't make it work in my Debian.

No interest in FF14.

A weapon making its wielder stronger is about as gamey as it having conditional damage, and both could make sense within a generic fantasy world.

Nope. In LotR, magical weapons with better cutting capacity exists. No one get more IQ points or muscle mass by wearing a different dress.

[Statesman]

A weapon making its wielder stronger is about as gamey as it having conditional damage, and both could make sense within a generic fantasy world.

Nope. In LotR, magical weapons with better cutting capacity exists. No one get more IQ points or muscle mass by wearing a different dress.

Magical weapons with "better cutting capacity" exist in every fantasy world and in every videogame, there is no need to single out Lord of the Rings In any case, stats are supposed to serve as mathematical abstraction for the interactions between several variables that are usually covered by offhand prose in a written novel.

[WaterMage]

Stats should measure how strong your char is, how intelligent he is, etc. Not how fancy their boots is. Magical gear should do cool magical stuff, not be a stat stickie.

[Statesman]

Stats should measure how strong your char is, how intelligent he is, etc. Not how fancy their boots is. Magical gear should do cool magical stuff, not be a stat stickie.

But they can certainly measure how fancy the enchantment in them is

[WaterMage]

Seriously, is not only I who hate Barbie dressing mechanics. V Rising. The top most downloaded mod for this game replaces the Barbie dressing progression with proper RPG progression ie - you get better at illusion magic by researching illusion spells and using it, not by finding a new dress to wear.

[J1M]

I remember Guild Wars 1 had gear that was easy to obtain unless you wanted it to look special.

Not sure what happened once they added expansions though.

[Statesman]

Seriously, is not only I who hate Barbie dressing mechanics. V Rising. The top most downloaded mod for this game replaces the Barbie dressing progression with proper RPG progression ie - you get better at illusion magic by researching illusion spells and using it, not by finding a new dress to wear.

And yet it still relies on stats. Teasing aside, while I do wish more games had creative gear/magic uses over mere damage/ability increases, I find your "Eww, stats" attitude quite a bit silly. On an ideal, RPG, you need both.

I remember Guild Wars 1 had gear that was easy to obtain unless you wanted it to look special.

Not sure what happened once they added expansions though.

Expacs kept adding cosmetically different gear that still stuck to vanilla value ranges. Expac weapons were upgradable, so you could mix and match component effects instead of having to wait for a RNG drop.

[swbgtoc]

Seriously, is not only I who hate Barbie dressing mechanics. V Rising. The top most downloaded mod for this game replaces the Barbie dressing progression with proper RPG progression ie - you get better at illusion magic by researching illusion spells and using it, not by finding a new dress to wear.

I love Barbie dressing, I wish gear was mostly visual and with no bonus stats attached but armor/weight so you could just pick your gear for style while having your power attached to your character.

[Cedric]

Actual answer: EverQuest 2 up until Sentinel's Fate. You could play circles around an idiot with gear twice as good as yours because for many classes the rotations or lack thereof were pretty difficult to get the most damage out of without practice and study.

I guess FF14 too (for different reasons, basically everyone will have about the same gear pretty quickly) but it's gay and full of **** and ******** and pedos. (Redundant, I know)

[WaterMage]

One mmo that I loved but sadly is dead is Shroud of the avatar, no Barbie dressing mechanics. Sadly is dead...

Look how cool is my summon ice elemental



I really, really miss Shadowbane and sadly can't play anymore...

[rusty_shackleford]

I played SotA for about a month and actually enjoyed it a lot.
Then I lost my character because they did a massive month-long database reset

[WaterMage]

Cool, if you liked SotA, can you recommend mmos, proper RPGs, not Barbie Dressing games?

If you enjoy barbie dressing games, there are so many to chose.,,

[rustys-name-is-kumar]

lack of gear dependence would heavily imply the game itself favors a player's mechanical skill and many times that will go against the rpg's sense of character progression of getting something better to make the number bigger and the mmo's hook to keep you paying/playing to grind.

the closest you will get for an mmo that has an actual playerbase is something where the gearing process is more horizontal than vertical, probably like eso or similar. i guess theres guild wars 1/2 but it's heavily slanted towards pvp.

otherwise you'll want an ARPG like a souls game in which gear and scaling are less stressed and player-based execution is most important.

[Vaako]

edit nvm

[WaterMage]

guild wars 1/2 but it's heavily slanted towards pvp.

Come on, you can't even use skills without gear.

GW2 is very gear dependent. Way more than lets say ShadowBane and Dungeons & Dragons Online...