Something about D&D that I noticed, some books started to use "she" as the base instead of he at some point. Not sure when it started, but it is incredibly noticeable. If there is need of an example for more information, do let me know, I can search the texts that I have.
Do you happen to know which edition this started in?
I'd be really surprised if it was prior to 3e, I can't even remember offhand if 3e did it or not. But, it's possible Lorraine mandated it at some point in the later 2E TSR stuff as she was burning everything to the ground.
Something about D&D that I noticed, some books started to use "she" as the base instead of he at some point. Not sure when it started, but it is incredibly noticeable. If there is need of an example for more information, do let me know, I can search the texts that I have.
Do you happen to know which edition this started in?
I'd be really surprised if it was prior to 3e, I can't even remember offhand if 3e did it or not. But, it's possible Lorraine mandated it at some point in the later 2E TSR stuff as she was burning everything to the ground.
I am almost certain it is either during 3.5e or right after, I also do not recall anything being with "she" in prior (black and white with the cool "pen drawings") editions.
Edit: found this one just by looking at one I had "on hand". From Heroes of Horror (3.5), page 8
Last edited by DagothGeas5 on December 29th, 2024, 12:16, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, 3.5 had a policy of alternating male/female examples. It's explained in the introduction of one of the books (I don't remember if it was in the DMG or later). Paizo would later have a policy of using only female pronouns for some classes - probably based on the "iconic " character they created for each class.
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Wanted to edit the post with one more example, will leave it here as it is a separate book but, yet again, 3.5 era, not earlier. This one is from Libris Mortis, page 44
Van Richten's guide to Werewolves (2E for AD&D) has a few examples of "he or she" being used in a way that reminds me of "forced inclusion" in some way ("women can do the same things as men").
The guide to vampires has also the same and examples made with women, but they fit the context (the making of a "vampire bride" creature).
Singular they was used, but not in the way that it is being used now. They've even managed to trip up stylistic guides by getting them to endorse singular they not realizing what they were endorsing, which caused the organizations to walk it back.
The singular indefinite they was used for a person of unknown gender for a very long time. Consider:
"Someone left their wallet."
If you knew that it was Whiteshark's wallet, you'd say: "WhiteShark left his wallet."
The modern nu-singular they is a definite they: "WhiteShark left their wallet."
The "akshually, singular they has always been used!" crowd is purposely conflating these two.
If you're having trouble understanding the difference, know that this is something that tripped up a bunch of style guides, and not even for pozzed reasons — chicago styleguide went back and suggested against using it in the 'modern' way after first recommending to do so. https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qa ... q0018.html
The Builder, 1927, Volume 4
The person who lost their keys is specific, but not definite.
The reason you'd see "he/him" used in, for example, the AD&D PHB was because the reader is specific and definite. This is despite the author not knowing who the reader is, exactly. It is specific to the reader's context.
Something about D&D that I noticed, some books started to use "she" as the base instead of he at some point. Not sure when it started, but it is incredibly noticeable. If there is need of an example for more information, do let me know, I can search the texts that I have.
They started mixing uses of he and she around or with 3e, which I think is fair enough, so long as it is consistent... though I prefer the male pronoun as neutral in written text to make it readable without much ado.
Last edited by fkirenicus on December 29th, 2024, 22:59, edited 1 time in total.
It's not. He is the traditional neuter pronoun when referring to a person, and the primary audience for the books are male.
It was an attempt to broaden the audience to females for money.
AD&D PHB. RPGs had already gone woke in 1977. It's over for us gamers.
I wonder who added that, because it definitely wasn't Gygax. He was a bioessentialist.
I recall at one point he even shot down an argument that women are more agile by asking the person to list women who are actually better gymnasts than the best male gymnasts. The only reason female gymnasts tend to get more attention is because of the female form.
Last edited by rusty_shackleford on January 1st, 2025, 15:09, edited 1 time in total.
AD&D PHB. RPGs had already gone woke in 1977. It's over for us gamers.
I wonder who added that, because it definitely wasn't Gygax. He was a bioessentialist.
I recall at one point he even shot down an argument that women are more agile by asking the person to list women who are actually better gymnasts than the best male gymnasts. The only reason female gymnasts tend to get more attention is because of the female form.
PHB was written by Gary Gygax and edited by Mike Carr. As far I know, Mike only wrote the foreword, so the rest of the text is all Gygax.
AD&D PHB. RPGs had already gone woke in 1977. It's over for us gamers.
I wonder who added that, because it definitely wasn't Gygax. He was a bioessentialist.
I recall at one point he even shot down an argument that women are more agile by asking the person to list women who are actually better gymnasts than the best male gymnasts. The only reason female gymnasts tend to get more attention is because of the female form.
PHB was written by Gary Gygax and edited by Mike Carr. As far I know, Mike only wrote the foreword, so the rest of the text is all Gygax.
I know it wasn't written by Gygax, because he makes his position on women in combat quite clear. WoG didn't even include females in population figures for humanoids, because all you needed to know was how many combatants they had
Selection_024.webp
Gary Gygax wrote:
As for the actual difference between males and females, I am quite comfortable with the limits I placed in the book...unless steroids are taken into account. Males have some 30% more muscle mass, IIRR, and they are taller and heavier than females. All of that matters in combat.
The final word on how Gygax viewed females is obviously Drow, a matriarchal society where men are weaker and subservient — that is wholly evil.
Gary Gygax wrote:
The Drow are as they are because they are evil, subterranean elves.
When I conceived the race they were meant to be fascinating and horrid at the same time, the most powerful and most malign group in the vast Underdark. They are like no other humanoid or demi-human race. It is thus natural that the female of the species is larger and more powerfyl than the male.
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Last edited by rusty_shackleford on January 1st, 2025, 15:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Added Gygax quote on Drow
I wonder who added that, because it definitely wasn't Gygax. He was a bioessentialist.
I recall at one point he even shot down an argument that women are more agile by asking the person to list women who are actually better gymnasts than the best male gymnasts. The only reason female gymnasts tend to get more attention is because of the female form.
PHB was written by Gary Gygax and edited by Mike Carr. As far I know, Mike only wrote the foreword, so the rest of the text is all Gygax.
I know it wasn't written by Gygax, because he makes his position on women in combat quite clear. WoG didn't even include females in population figures for humanoids, because all you needed to know was how many combatants they had
Gary Gygax wrote:
As for the actual difference between males and females, I am quite comfortable with the limits I placed in the book...unless steroids are taken into account. Males have some 30% more muscle mass, IIRR, and they are taller and heavier than females. All of that matters in combat.
The final word on how Gygax viewed females is obviously Drow, a matriarchal society where men are weaker and subservient — that is wholly evil.
Gary Gygax wrote:
The Drow are as they are because they are evil, subterranean elves.
When I conceived the race they were meant to be fascinating and horrid at the same time, the most powerful and most malign group in the vast Underdark. They are like no other humanoid or demi-human race. It is thus natural that the female of the species is larger and more powerfyl than the male.
None of that contradicts his statement in PHB, which doesn't necessarily denote his opinion on the subject, but rather points out that sex holds little importance to a character's ability in D&D. There's nothing particularly odd about it. D&D is a game, some compromises have to be made to prioritize fun and gameplay over realism. Nobody would play with female characters if they were inherently weaker than males. He made the same compromise in regards to human races.
PHB was written by Gary Gygax and edited by Mike Carr. As far I know, Mike only wrote the foreword, so the rest of the text is all Gygax.
I know it wasn't written by Gygax, because he makes his position on women in combat quite clear. WoG didn't even include females in population figures for humanoids, because all you needed to know was how many combatants they had
Gary Gygax wrote:
As for the actual difference between males and females, I am quite comfortable with the limits I placed in the book...unless steroids are taken into account. Males have some 30% more muscle mass, IIRR, and they are taller and heavier than females. All of that matters in combat.
The final word on how Gygax viewed females is obviously Drow, a matriarchal society where men are weaker and subservient — that is wholly evil.
Gary Gygax wrote:
The Drow are as they are because they are evil, subterranean elves.
When I conceived the race they were meant to be fascinating and horrid at the same time, the most powerful and most malign group in the vast Underdark. They are like no other humanoid or demi-human race. It is thus natural that the female of the species is larger and more powerfyl than the male.
Nobody would play with female characters if they were inherently weaker than males.
People play less optimal races for aesthetics/role playing all the time
Nobody would play with female characters if they were inherently weaker than males.
I fail to see the issue.
TSR clearly did. It was a business and D&D its product.
I also find it ironic you ignored the race part. The fact that a ****** can be a druid or wizard with 18 INT is somehow more believable than a female of equal stats performing the same as a male.
The fact that a ****** can be a druid or wizard with 18 INT is somehow more believable than a female of equal stats performing the same as a male.
Yea.
Well, you're a cucktian like Gygax. Your "bioessentialism" only extends as far as sex.
Male genetic variability is much higher than female, it's why you have men like Clarence Thomas but no female wrestlers who can compete with the best male wrestlers.
Well, you're a cucktian like Gygax. Your "bioessentialism" only extends as far as sex.
Male genetic variability is much higher than female, it's why you have men like Clarence Thomas but no female wrestlers who can compete with the best male wrestlers.
A ****** wizard with 18 INT or poopjeet paladin with 18 STR is as believable as women with the same stats. Both cases require you to suspend your disbelief. The only reason why you take issue with one but not the other is because you're a hypocrite cucktian.
Well, you're a cucktian like Gygax. Your "bioessentialism" only extends as far as sex.
Male genetic variability is much higher than female, it's why you have men like Clarence Thomas but no female wrestlers who can compete with the best male wrestlers.
A ****** wizard with 18 INT or poopjeet paladin with 18 STR is as believable as women with the same stats. Both cases require you to suspend your disbelief. The only reason why you take issue with one but not the other is because you're a hypocrite cucktian.
Not my fault you don't know anything about the subject at hand.
Male genetic variability is much higher than female, it's why you have men like Clarence Thomas but no female wrestlers who can compete with the best male wrestlers.
A ****** wizard with 18 INT or poopjeet paladin with 18 STR is as believable as women with the same stats. Both cases require you to suspend your disbelief. The only reason why you take issue with one but not the other is because you're a hypocrite cucktian.
Not my fault you don't know anything about the subject at hand.
>y-you're wrong!
Nice rebuttal, you ******* *****.
I think the issue is that there's only so much suspension of disbelief that you can have when it comes to medieval combat, even if it's fantasy.
Like we know that stuff like magic exists in these settings and all that, but the humans shown in-story at the end of the day are still supposed to be humans.
Some other fantasy races are allowed to have their sexual dimorphism like the aforementioned drow who have different sheets for both males and females, as well as other monstrous stuff like trolls where the female is bigger and stronger, so I find it odd how humanoids are all supposed to be "physically equal".
Something about D&D that I noticed, some books started to use "she" as the base instead of he at some point. Not sure when it started, but it is incredibly noticeable. If there is need of an example for more information, do let me know, I can search the texts that I have.
Do you happen to know which edition this started in?
I'd be really surprised if it was prior to 3e, I can't even remember offhand if 3e did it or not. But, it's possible Lorraine mandated it at some point in the later 2E TSR stuff as she was burning everything to the ground.
At some point in 3rd Edition, they started alternating usage of HE and SHE by paragraph or section (I can't remember which).
I know this because they explained it somewhere in a book or some published material. (I know I didn't read it online, but it could be there also.)
You may as well not bother replying to my posts if it's to argue anything except concrete facts or your personal opinion. I still probably won't see it.
Reject your retarded-wing political programming and learn to think.
If you can.
