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The Origins of Fallout (As best as I can remember it), Scott Campbell

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The Origins of Fallout (As best as I can remember it), Scott Campbell

Post by rusty_shackleford »

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Scott_Campbell
Reconstructed this document from individual rendered document pages, I can't find the original docx file, if anyone has it feel free to share it.
Because it was rendered as an SVG, the formatting was lost, so this was the only way I could preserve the formatting.

You don't have a PDF plugin, but you can download the PDF file.

Maybe someone at NMA still has the original document, but they ****** their site up and most of the **** is lost.

A few points I wanted to discuss,
► Show Spoiler
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 14:06
This document further reinforces the argument that Fallout was not some ridiculous critique on capitalism or imperialism or whatever. It was an over the top game about violence and life in a nuclear wasteland. The only consistent ideological theme seems to be critiquing censorship. They even dropped GURPS because they were unwilling to give in to censorship demands.
We had already come to the conclusion that this was going to be a bloody game. I think it was Tim that
coined the phrase, “Heap of Gore Technology ™”. (We actually wanted that as a bullet point on the
box.) The idea was, if you score a critical hit which kills an enemy, they fountain blood like a Shaw
Brothers film and fall dead. The methods of their death showed different animations – critical death by
sword and they are cut in half, critical death by machine gun and they shudder with bullet holes before
falling into a pool of gore, blasted by a laser and a smoldering ash pile is all that remains.
I remember him looking up quizzically at me and saying, “Kids too? Do we really want to do that?”
I had a moment of indecision. I had visions of parents walking into little Timmy’s room and watching
aghast as he mercilessly mows down a schoolyard of children with his chain-gun.
Thankfully I stuck to my beliefs and said, “Hell yeah.”
We also wanted the characters in our game to speak frankly and crassly – sometimes even curse.
You gotta remember that this was early 1995: the word “***” was still banned from the public airwaves
by the FCC. Lots of people didn’t like the explicit violence in video games, and they spoke loudly to
senators who would gladly like to demonize an emerging artform.

How exactly quotes about developers wanting game to have a lot of graphical violence prove that they didn't try to criticize capitalism or Imperialism?
Last edited by Faceless_Sentinel on December 27th, 2024, 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:15
How exactly quotes about developers wanting game to have a lot of graphical violence prove that they didn't try to criticize capitalism or Imperialism?
Because it's further evidence that it was always meant to be an over-the-top ridiculous game, not a social commentary.
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:16
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:15
How exactly quotes about developers wanting game to have a lot of graphical violence prove that they didn't try to criticize capitalism or Imperialism?
Because it's further evidence that it was always meant to be an over-the-top ridiculous game, not a social commentary.
This quotes not saying this exactly, they just say that devs wanted a lot of violence in their game. You can have a lot of violence in game and try to criticize something.
Last edited by Faceless_Sentinel on December 27th, 2024, 15:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:20
rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:16
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:15
How exactly quotes about developers wanting game to have a lot of graphical violence prove that they didn't try to criticize capitalism or Imperialism?
Because it's further evidence that it was always meant to be an over-the-top ridiculous game, not a social commentary.
This quotes not saying this exactly, they just say that devs wanted a lot of violence in their game. You can have a lot of violence in game and try to criticize something.
The evidence that it was meant to be a social commentary is zero. The evidence that it was meant to be !!FUN!! is a lot.
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:21
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:20
rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:16

Because it's further evidence that it was always meant to be an over-the-top ridiculous game, not a social commentary.
This quotes not saying this exactly, they just say that devs wanted a lot of violence in their game. You can have a lot of violence in game and try to criticize something.
The evidence that it was meant to be a social commentary is zero. The evidence that it was meant to be !!FUN!! is a lot.
By Scott Campbell, this is written by Scott Campbell! When you get alike documents from other writers, than you can say for sure.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:24
By Scott Campbell, this is written by Scott Campbell! When you get alike documents from other writers, than you can say for sure.
That's what Tim Cain has stated too. You're free to hunt down the rest.
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:25
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:24
By Scott Campbell, this is written by Scott Campbell! When you get alike documents from other writers, than you can say for sure.
That's what Tim Cain has stated too. You're free to hunt down the rest.
Okay, two people from whole writing team said they didn't write it like critique of anything. You can't ignore rest. This is exact behaviour that murican left do with women and invetion: "if woman participated in invetion process then she is inventor and it doesn't matter that the only thing she did was photocopy blueprints for different departments!", they attribute for their own benefit, you exclude for your own benefit.

As for hunting down rest: I don't care much about was fallout having critique of capitalism or imperialism or not, if it had then it is very poor critique, if not, then okay, thank for greatly drown futuristic game assets, I liked it.
Last edited by Faceless_Sentinel on December 27th, 2024, 15:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:30
rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:25
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:24
By Scott Campbell, this is written by Scott Campbell! When you get alike documents from other writers, than you can say for sure.
That's what Tim Cain has stated too. You're free to hunt down the rest.
Okay, two people from whole writing team said they didn't write it like critique of anything. You can't ignore rest.
How big do you think dev teams were in 1997?
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

@rusty_shackleford I edited my previous message, please read my arguments.
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Post by Acrux »

The entire Fallout dev team was only 14 people.

https://www.gameslearningsociety.org/wh ... -come-out/
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

This doesn't change the fact that there could have been more than two writers. Boyarsky wrote quests, for example, although he was not a scriptwriter by position.

Also please clarify, do you consider the Fallout 2 in this question?
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Post by Tangerine »

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:30
This is exact behaviour that murican left do with women and invetion: "if woman participated in invetion process then she is inventor and it doesn't matter that the only thing she did was photocopy blueprints for different departments!",
You're doing exactly what you claimed Americans do. The main creative drivers said that the game wasn't a statement against capitalism, but you're trying to find the one leftoid on the team who maybe wrote a quest or two to claim the game is anti-capitalist.
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

Tangerine wrote: December 27th, 2024, 17:23
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:30
This is exact behaviour that murican left do with women and invetion: "if woman participated in invetion process then she is inventor and it doesn't matter that the only thing she did was photocopy blueprints for different departments!",
You're doing exactly what you claimed Americans do. The main creative drivers said that the game wasn't a statement against capitalism, but you're trying to find the one leftoid on the team who maybe wrote a quest or two to claim the game is anti-capitalist.
Because otherwise i can't be completely sure. You ask only 2 main creative drivers out of all, you don't know how many "main creative drivers" there was(unless you consider Boyarsky a random idiot who did nothing and his opinion doesn't count, then ofcourse there was only 2), great source research.
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Post by Tweed »

Can Faceless ever not be stupid?
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Post by TKVNC »

Tweed wrote: December 27th, 2024, 18:24
Can Faceless ever not be stupid?
No, he is a bozo
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Post by Tweed »

Document makes it sound like Brian was the one who ruined the company. Was the he the one who sold out to the Caen brothers?
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Post by Roguey »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:21
The evidence that it was meant to be a social commentary is zero. The evidence that it was meant to be !!FUN!! is a lot.
If that were 100% the case, it wouldn't have started with the "war never changes" speech. The opening narration they had originally written actually was goofy and fun, they changed it.
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Post by Orvas Dren »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:16
Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 27th, 2024, 15:15
How exactly quotes about developers wanting game to have a lot of graphical violence prove that they didn't try to criticize capitalism or Imperialism?
Because it's further evidence that it was always meant to be an over-the-top ridiculous game, not a social commentary.
fallout 1 was neither of those things. It's not some woke social commentary but it also wasn't some zanny over-the-top game either, which is how bethesda eventually came to view it (I partially blame fallout 2 and its obsession with pop culture for this). The world of Fallout 1 is a cruel, dark, and oppressive environment with occasional black humor; where everyone enacts brutality on one another over the scarce resources left in the carcass of a bygone era. Over-the-top ridiculous fallout is what the tv slop is, and is a huge degradation from the themes and atmosphere of the first game and New Vegas.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Serjo wrote: December 30th, 2024, 18:49
but it also wasn't some zanny over-the-top game either,
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Post by Orvas Dren »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 30th, 2024, 18:50
Serjo wrote: December 30th, 2024, 18:49
but it also wasn't some zanny over-the-top game either,
Image
the last quote pairs nicely with exactly what I said. The wasteland is not the world you (1990s) live in, it's a place where violence is a given and brutality is the norm
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Post by Acrux »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 30th, 2024, 18:50
Serjo wrote: December 30th, 2024, 18:49
but it also wasn't some zanny over-the-top game either,
Image
What a lie!





You don't get to destroy any buildings or walls.

Except the cathedral I guess.
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Post by Faceless_Sentinel »

Serjo wrote: December 30th, 2024, 18:49
fallout 1 was neither of those things. It's not some woke social commentary but it also wasn't some zanny over-the-top game either, which is how bethesda eventually came to view it (I partially blame fallout 2 and its obsession with pop culture for this).
Imagine if Rusty wasn't that fanatical and stubborn, found exactly what writers intentions were instead of attributing two people's opinions to everyone who wrote anything for fallout 1 instead of finding developers notes that fits his agenda.

Imagine a world where we mock all ****** who say fallout 1 is woke and criticize capitalism by saying: "Oh boy, you are so pathetic, "critique" is done by 1 out of 5 writing team <links to statements of all who wrote quest and lore for fallout 1> in a side-quest that is consisting of three sentences! If that's a reason for you to think the whole game is about that, then you're just a pathetic ignoramus looking for self-validation where there is none!". If only Rusty wasn't that stubborn.
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Post by Roguey »

Chris Taylor noted that the Fallout vision doc was exclusively for the dudebros in Interplay's middle management. They hated nerd **** (Baldur's Gate wouldn't have even happened if Feargus didn't go over his boss's head and go directly to Fargo with it after it had been rejected).

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout ... _statement
Brian was involved with the vision statement by reading it. I wrote the thing after talking with Tim and the rest of the team at a team meeting. I'm pretty sure all the leads had direct input into the vision doc. We had been having problems getting an approved vision statement, IIRC, and I wrote an off-beat one that got approved. The little blurbs in the FO3 post don't quite do it justice.

The mega-level of violence snippet is being taken slightly out of context.

That vision statement was written with management, marketing and sales in mind. It was never intended to be released to the public, nor was it written at the end of the project -- things changed.

The Vision Doc definitely pre-dated the SPECIALization of Fallout. There was also a US vs. THEM competition between us and the D&D projects (the Fallout dev team felt like red-headed step children after Interplay acquired the D&D license, no offense to red-headed step children.) So we wrote some docs for Interplay management with a neener-neener kind of attitude.
Look at Planescape Torment's written by Avellone - same attitude.
Last edited by Roguey on December 30th, 2024, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Roguey wrote: December 30th, 2024, 20:18
Chris Taylor noted that the Fallout vision doc was exclusively for the dudebros in Interplay's middle management. They hated nerd **** (Baldur's Gate wouldn't have even happened if Feargus didn't go over his boss's head and go directly to Fargo with it after it had been rejected).

https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout ... _statement
Brian was involved with the vision statement by reading it. I wrote the thing after talking with Tim and the rest of the team at a team meeting. I'm pretty sure all the leads had direct input into the vision doc. We had been having problems getting an approved vision statement, IIRC, and I wrote an off-beat one that got approved. The little blurbs in the FO3 post don't quite do it justice.

The mega-level of violence snippet is being taken slightly out of context.

That vision statement was written with management, marketing and sales in mind. It was never intended to be released to the public, nor was it written at the end of the project -- things changed.

The Vision Doc definitely pre-dated the SPECIALization of Fallout. There was also a US vs. THEM competition between us and the D&D projects (the Fallout dev team felt like red-headed step children after Interplay acquired the D&D license, no offense to red-headed step children.) So we wrote some docs for Interplay management with a neener-neener kind of attitude.
Look at Planescape Torment's written by Avellone - same attitude.
If it was up to them and not the marketing department, Fallout would be nothing like Fallout.
The idea that they were just slipping the game past the marketing department is laughable, cain himself has discussed how many ideas he had shot down.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Faceless_Sentinel wrote: December 30th, 2024, 19:52
Imagine if Rusty wasn't that fanatical and stubborn, found exactly what writers intentions were instead of attributing two people's opinions to everyone who wrote anything for fallout 1 instead of finding developers notes that fits his agenda.
I'm directly quoting documents from the time, and developers writing things much closer to when it was actually developed rather than in a current year hyper political landscape where everything is being reinterpreted.

"The vision statement is false because… IT JUST IS, OKAY?!"
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Waiting for the people who never played Wasteland to lecture me on how the I-Cant-Believe-Its-Not-Wasteland is actually a deep social commentary
Image

You see, the visa sign represents capitalism, and he is ATTACKING you with it! It's a critique of how rampant capitalism is!
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Post by Acrux »

You've got your balls to the wall!
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Post by Tangerine »

rusty_shackleford wrote: December 30th, 2024, 20:43
You see, the visa sign represents capitalism, and he is ATTACKING you with it! It's a critique of how rampant capitalism is!
He's also wearing the robes and haircut of a xtian monk, which shows he's an evil religious zealot that is devoted to the false god of property ownership. Please updoot me, good sirs.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Oh, and
Roguey wrote: December 30th, 2024, 20:18
Chris Taylor noted that the Fallout vision doc was exclusively for the dudebros in Interplay's middle management. They hated nerd **** (Baldur's Gate wouldn't have even happened if Feargus didn't go over his boss's head and go directly to Fargo with it after it had been rejected).
Read your own source next time. Fargo was the one responsible for rejecting their two prior vision documents.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160329160 ... 442/page-4
Fargo did reject the first two vision documents. He also suggested the use of specific examples. Tim told me about the example of the kid and the rabid dog from WL that Fargo used.
You might also know him as the guy who created Wasteland!
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