EverQuest thoughts

[Xenich]

Criticism of game-design decisions that I think are bad now count as "modern mainstream ******"? Or saying "go **** your self" to a guy who rude with me for no reason count as "modern mainstream ******"?

Complaining about a game you don't know **** about is mainstream ********. You have no clue what you are talking about and walk into a conversation about the details of a game and immediately down it like some kiddie internet ******.

Then, you go on to act offended when people react harshly to your strupidity?

Yes... you are a kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot.

You gave a list of "key aspects of play" in main post of this topic and I say why I think some of them are bad.

You create strawman about complaining, "kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot", basically behaving like "kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot" and pretend you are better than me? Pathetic.

I gave an example, I explained in detail how it relates to game play concerning such.

You argue like a *****.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Why would you be doing so many corpse runs though? And if you are "one shot" by enemies, likely you are in a zone that is high level, or has risk factors which have to be accounted for, and prepared for.

For instance, Kithcore at day is an easy zone, low level mobs mostly and a good hunting place for lower levels... but at night... its high level mobs come out. Only reason to be there is to pass through and how/when you pass though it depends on night or day.

If you do go through at night, at low level... major care must be taken be it through extremely careful holding to the zone edges, watching pathing, using various spells (ie invis to undead), or having someone who has a run speed spell that can help you navigate quickly.

If you are constantly running back to your corpse, well... you might need to consider what you are doing, why, and if it is worth the risk in your venture.

This is what exploration is...

Taking that away does what? Sure.. removes the "consequence", basically removing the risk... but at what cost? How is that "game play" and why is it better that you no longer have risk? Because you want to win without effort, make decisions without thought? Basically spam keys and "win"?

How did this "improve" the over all experience and what is gained by removing those risks?

It improves in a way that you actually do actual exploring, not corpse runs.

All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Sounds like you want a walking simulator, not a game.

I asked you example of "non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems", you name me a ways to avoid combat because at night high level mobs spawns... Do you understand what is wrong here?



Who is

narrow everything to ""kill mob" as game play

here?

[Xenich]

Why would you be doing so many corpse runs though? And if you are "one shot" by enemies, likely you are in a zone that is high level, or has risk factors which have to be accounted for, and prepared for.

For instance, Kithcore at day is an easy zone, low level mobs mostly and a good hunting place for lower levels... but at night... its high level mobs come out. Only reason to be there is to pass through and how/when you pass though it depends on night or day.

If you do go through at night, at low level... major care must be taken be it through extremely careful holding to the zone edges, watching pathing, using various spells (ie invis to undead), or having someone who has a run speed spell that can help you navigate quickly.

If you are constantly running back to your corpse, well... you might need to consider what you are doing, why, and if it is worth the risk in your venture.

This is what exploration is...

Taking that away does what? Sure.. removes the "consequence", basically removing the risk... but at what cost? How is that "game play" and why is it better that you no longer have risk? Because you want to win without effort, make decisions without thought? Basically spam keys and "win"?

It improves in a way that you actually do actual exploring, not corpse runs.

All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Sounds like you want a walking simulator, not a game.

I asked you example of "non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems", you name me a ways to avoid combat because at night high level mobs spawns... Do you understand what is wrong here?



Who is

narrow everything to ""kill mob" as game play

here?

Those are all exploration aspects of play, not specifically combat related. The risk deal with the possible chance of combat, but not combat itself. Having elements of play where through careful measures you can avoid combat is still non-combat related, especially when it deals with traversing the world.

If you are going to call that "combat related", well... other than *** LARPing in a city, everything is combat related if you wish to be obtuse.

[Rand]

[Xenich]

My fault for attending to the ******* stupidity.

One thing I find interesting though...

When I played EQ, I played it consistently for about 5 years. It was my main game, and while I did dabble in some single players as they came out, it was pretty much all I played. That is how good the game was, that it could consistently hold me playing (and subbed) for 5 years is a testament to its draw.

These days, I hear people go on and on about how EQ sucks and how all these MMOs (which are dead or dying) are better, but how many of these people continuously sub? How many consume the content and sit on their *** for months to years making no progress?

I don't play EQ anymore because it isn't EQ anymore. It resembles more modern MMOs than it does its original design. Everything today carries apparently the "superior" MMO design model, yet nobody plays them for very long? Why? If they are so great, why aren't they playing it consistently like I did EQ?

If these MMOs are "the way", then why do people jump from one MMO to the next back and forth and can never really hang with any game for very long? Was never a problem when I played EQ, but apparently EQ was poorly designed?

I don't get it.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Why would you be doing so many corpse runs though? And if you are "one shot" by enemies, likely you are in a zone that is high level, or has risk factors which have to be accounted for, and prepared for.

For instance, Kithcore at day is an easy zone, low level mobs mostly and a good hunting place for lower levels... but at night... its high level mobs come out. Only reason to be there is to pass through and how/when you pass though it depends on night or day.

If you do go through at night, at low level... major care must be taken be it through extremely careful holding to the zone edges, watching pathing, using various spells (ie invis to undead), or having someone who has a run speed spell that can help you navigate quickly.

If you are constantly running back to your corpse, well... you might need to consider what you are doing, why, and if it is worth the risk in your venture.

This is what exploration is...

Taking that away does what? Sure.. removes the "consequence", basically removing the risk... but at what cost? How is that "game play" and why is it better that you no longer have risk? Because you want to win without effort, make decisions without thought? Basically spam keys and "win"?




All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Sounds like you want a walking simulator, not a game.

I asked you example of "non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems", you name me a ways to avoid combat because at night high level mobs spawns... Do you understand what is wrong here?



Who is

narrow everything to ""kill mob" as game play

here?

Those are all exploration aspects of play, not specifically combat related. The risk deal with the possible chance of combat, but not combat itself. Having elements of play where through careful measures you can avoid combat is still non-combat related, especially when it deals with traversing the world.

If you are going to call that "combat related", well... other than *** LARPing in a city, everything is combat related if you wish to be obtuse.

In everquest? Maybe, but in WoW you have aspects of play besides combat, for example cosmetics

[Xenich]

I asked you example of "non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems", you name me a ways to avoid combat because at night high level mobs spawns... Do you understand what is wrong here?



Who is

here?

Those are all exploration aspects of play, not specifically combat related. The risk deal with the possible chance of combat, but not combat itself. Having elements of play where through careful measures you can avoid combat is still non-combat related, especially when it deals with traversing the world.

If you are going to call that "combat related", well... other than *** LARPing in a city, everything is combat related if you wish to be obtuse.

In everquest? Maybe, but in WoW you have aspects of play besides combat, for example cosmetics

EQ had cosmetics, but you had to go earn the gear to get the look.

Besides, playing dress up isn't playing a game, it is *** larping ****.

I understand people wanting to invest into their characters looks, but acting like it is an important part of the game is telling me you are a chick or a ***.

edit:

By the way, I am talking about game play. Cosmetics are not game play, they are useless shinies that have no purpose outside of the players vanity.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Those are all exploration aspects of play, not specifically combat related. The risk deal with the possible chance of combat, but not combat itself. Having elements of play where through careful measures you can avoid combat is still non-combat related, especially when it deals with traversing the world.

If you are going to call that "combat related", well... other than *** LARPing in a city, everything is combat related if you wish to be obtuse.

In everquest? Maybe, but in WoW you have aspects of play besides combat, for example cosmetics

EQ had cosmetics, but you had to go earn the gear to get the look.

Besides, playing dress up isn't playing a game, it is *** larping ****.

I understand people wanting to invest into their characters looks, but acting like it is an important part of the game is telling me you are a chick or a ***.

This is so unimportant that it has dedicated game mechanic to it. The words of someone who didn't get his desirable cosmetic dropped.

[Xenich]

In everquest? Maybe, but in WoW you have aspects of play besides combat, for example cosmetics

EQ had cosmetics, but you had to go earn the gear to get the look.

Besides, playing dress up isn't playing a game, it is *** larping ****.

I understand people wanting to invest into their characters looks, but acting like it is an important part of the game is telling me you are a chick or a ***.

This is so unimportant that it has dedicated game mechanic to it. The words of someone who didn't get his desirable cosmetic dropped.

Mechanic? It is useless ****.

I breifely watched your video... all of the "cosmetics" do nothing in terms of game play. They are jerk off crap for the ********.

Again... GAME PLAY... a "Mechanic" means it has a function or use in play, a purpose.

Does it? Nope... but oh look... I can experience what it is like to be gnome size! Wonderful, the game play is really advanced with this... I am sure that will help me out a lot when I am "playing" the game.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

My fault for attending to the ******* stupidity.

Well, if saying that slow level grind is a bad and boring is stupidity, than I leave you with your baby duck syndrome, have fun.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

Imagine being such a goy

@Vergil, I hate when you end up being right and this is one of such cases.

[Xenich]

My fault for attending to the ******* stupidity.

Well, if saying that slow level grind is a bad and boring is stupidity, than I leave you with your baby duck syndrome, have fun.

As opposed to fast level pace and then end dungeon grinding for months/years?


Your problem is your ignorance and arrogance of your position. Like most mainstream *******, your experience is limited to your small little echo chamber of retardation.

Grind has to exist. There is no way around it if you want to keep people playing (keep in mind this does not account for the ******* who consume at a pace that is unobtainable to develop for)

So how do you approach it?

1. Well, you can backload it like WoW and allow everyone to fast pace to cap and then... restrict them with caps on running instances. Still a grind, but a modern "please wait till tomorrow to continue playing."

2. Spread the grind out across the game evenly for progression.

If we back load it like WoW, you run into numerous problems.

Progression is so fast, all in between content/character progression is useless as it is quickly surpassed and you end up having to either auto-scale everything to level (taking development away from the player), or you have frostbolt 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... etc... garbage because you can't waste time on it due to people blowing through the levels. Add in that tons of the zones are useless and become empty shells due to this. All that work for very little play in them.

Contrast that with a grind spread evenly.

Each level is slow, which allows for in between level development features (EQ used skills that developed with use over time. So each level you had a cap, and while leveling with exp, your skills would develop getting better.

You had things like sense heading, bind wound, forage, fishing, etc... and then you had crafting skills, combat skills like kick, punch, taunt, special skills, casting schools, etc...

In this, content was heavy in dungeons, so it took time to even get through them, often hours in a night just to get to some areas and camp (contrast that with WoW speed run instances where people run the same instances over and over and over numerous times a night).

When EQ released, the bulk of the player base wasn't even at cap when the next expansion came out (6 months later). Most were mid 40's except for some key raiders and hardcore soloers. Progressing to the next expansion was continuous, not a "hurry up and wait" like WoW (wow, even on release was easy to get to cap long before any new content came out).


Point is... Grind exists in any MMO, it is just that modern MMOs back load it and turn it into a "waiting game", then entice people with useless carrots (cosmetics and non-gameplay features) to keep them occupied until new content comes out.

Yeah, sorry... but I prefer the grind that has content on the other end rather than a game that basically tells people who want actual game play to unsub and wait for a year for the next release. That is why WoW players jump games, because there is no actual content at the end of their speed to cap, just useless gimmicks.

But hey... useless grinding is stupid right? At least I was still "playing" a game, not jerking off to other ****** playing dress up.

Oh and to round this all off? Well.. travel, run speed, etc... all those features I discussed earlier lend to longevity in the play... slow progression...

[Oyster Sauce]

EverQuest is soulless

[Xenich]

EverQuest is soulless

Define soulful.

Or soulless in context of EQ's features.

Just trying to understand what you mean.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

16. Travel is dangerous (mixed level mobs in zones).

Wish more games besides just Xenoblade did this. At low levels, it creates the awe of seeing something that you are nowhere yet powerful enough to tackle, a visible long term goal right in front of you to reach. It also makes navigating the world more interesting when you are constantly looking over your shoulder trying to move around this big dangerous mob. And then the satisfaction of coming back to an earlier zone and finally fighting that big thing.

[Xenich]

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

Imagine being such a goy

@Vergil, I hate when you end up being right and this is one of such cases.

I love this claim that if you were to evaluate what these people spend on who claim this belief would be a laughable hypocrisy.

My favorite was an idiot in DDO once claiming that subbing for a game is completely ******** right before they dropped 300 bucks on some digital cosmetics and perks.

"Claims paying a sub is such a goy thing... had latest tech gadget, lease/loan on car, etc..."

[boot]

Anyone remember last chaos, Korean grind mmo? I played a Templar knight

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Imagine being such a goy

@Vergil, I hate when you end up being right and this is one of such cases.

I love this claim that if you were to evaluate what these people spend on who claim this belief would be a laughable hypocrisy.

My favorite was an idiot in DDO once claiming that subbing for a game is completely ******** right before they dropped 300 bucks on some digital cosmetics and perks.

"Claims paying a sub is such a goy thing... had latest tech gadget, lease/loan on car, etc..."

If anything like that ever comes up about @Vergil, I apologize to you specifically for that statement.

[Xenich]

Anyone remember last chaos, Korean grind mmo? I played a Templar knight

Don't remember it, though I was never a big fan of the Asian style grind MMOs.

[Xenich]

This sounds genuinely awesome.

Did you ever play EQ?

I never have, no.

It is worth a try, old game though which will come with some issues concerning interface function and various game play processes, so definitely need to cut it some slack on that front. EQ is essentially a graphical mud, so a lot of the game play data comes via the chat box. Project 1999 Green is the best experience to be close to original release. It is the "hey day" of EQ containing the best of the era (first three expansions).

If you have an open mind, and are willing to deal with hardship and a lot of modern day game play "features" (conveniences) being absent, you may enjoy it or... you may hate it with a passion, really depends on how you like to game.

It is group based mainly, but... some classes can solo very well through clever play tactics. I highly recommend trying it and if you would like, let me know when you are setup and I can hop on and show you the ropes.

BTW, The green server has roughly the EQ Test Server levels (300-700) which is slightly on the low pop level, but actually the best size for content being available for play. I played on Test server a good part of EQ Live (up to Kunark era before I transferred to a production server) and I would say it is the best experience once you find people to play with. While some may disagree, I found the production servers to be overpopulated and troublesome with EQ's design I would say 1k is the max I would want to see on an EQ server, after that it just turns into waiting lines of camps and constant squabbling and bickering between guilds fighting for raid targets.

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[Zothique]

Did you ever play EQ?

I never have, no.

It is worth a try, old game though which will come with some issues concerning interface function and various game play processes, so definitely need to cut it some slack on that front. EQ is essentially a graphical mud, so a lot of the game play data comes via the chat box. Project 1999 Green is the best experience to be close to original release. It is the "hey day" of EQ containing the best of the era (first three expansions).

If you have an open mind, and are willing to deal with hardship and a lot of modern day game play "features" (conveniences) being absent, you may enjoy it or... you may hate it with a passion, really depends on how you like to game.

It is group based mainly, but... some classes can solo very well through clever play tactics. I highly recommend trying it and if you would like, let me know when you are setup and I can hop on and show you the ropes.

BTW, The green server has roughly the EQ Test Server levels (300-700) which is slightly on the low pop level, but actually the best size for content being available for play. I played on Test server a good part of EQ Live (up to Kunark era before I transferred to a production server) and I would say it is the best experience once you find people to play with. While some may disagree, I found the production servers to be overpopulated and troublesome with EQ's design I would say 1k is the max I would want to see on an EQ server, after that it just turns into waiting lines of camps and constant squabbling and bickering between guilds fighting for raid targets.

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**** me, this is complex but I'm enjoying the weird so far. I'll keep you posted. Thinking about doing a solo necromancer or druid for now.

[Vergil]

If anything like that ever comes up about @Vergil, I apologize to you specifically for that statement.

I don't think I've purchased a game except insaniquarium in like 6+ months even.

[Xenich]

I never have, no.

It is worth a try, old game though which will come with some issues concerning interface function and various game play processes, so definitely need to cut it some slack on that front. EQ is essentially a graphical mud, so a lot of the game play data comes via the chat box. Project 1999 Green is the best experience to be close to original release. It is the "hey day" of EQ containing the best of the era (first three expansions).

If you have an open mind, and are willing to deal with hardship and a lot of modern day game play "features" (conveniences) being absent, you may enjoy it or... you may hate it with a passion, really depends on how you like to game.

It is group based mainly, but... some classes can solo very well through clever play tactics. I highly recommend trying it and if you would like, let me know when you are setup and I can hop on and show you the ropes.

BTW, The green server has roughly the EQ Test Server levels (300-700) which is slightly on the low pop level, but actually the best size for content being available for play. I played on Test server a good part of EQ Live (up to Kunark era before I transferred to a production server) and I would say it is the best experience once you find people to play with. While some may disagree, I found the production servers to be overpopulated and troublesome with EQ's design I would say 1k is the max I would want to see on an EQ server, after that it just turns into waiting lines of camps and constant squabbling and bickering between guilds fighting for raid targets.

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**** me, this is complex but I'm enjoying the weird so far. I'll keep you posted. Thinking about doing a solo necromancer or druid for now.

Good picks.

Druid will give you ease of travel with run speed spells, transports, etc... and is a strong solo class doing "kiting" with snare. Mainly outside strong (some spells don't work indoors) and has harmony to single pull.

Necro very strong as well, self sufficient, has Feign Death, and does fear kiting really well. Will be able to solo in dungeons better than a druid, and can take on some pretty tough bosses solo if you get good with them.

[Ranselknulf]

EverQuest has some great fun mechanics, but the classic experience won't ever be fully the same.

The manner in which people play these games is completely different, and having full knowledge of game styles and meta builds influences the emergent gaming experience.

Still a fun game, but I think trying to recapture the perfect experience is akin to "seeing the trees for the forest"

[Xenich]

EverQuest has some great fun mechanics, but the classic experience won't ever be fully the same.

The manner in which people play these games is completely different, and having full knowledge of game styles and meta builds influences the emergent gaming experience.

Still a fun game, but I think trying to recapture the perfect experience is akin to "seeing the trees for the forest"

Agreed, they can't completely recapture it, but they get pretty close. Too many things were changed from original release and a lot of people don't even know exactly what.

I preferred casters being restricted to the spell book while meditating. It balanced their power to the content, provided additional game play mechanics through spells (alarms, druid tree mod to allow them to med safely, or a races invis, etc...) and gave a sense of "fear" while medding in dangerous places.

Also, it has been a while, but I don't remember original release allowing 3rd person play. There might have been camera angle switching, but I can't remember. This also provided a danger in play in terms of exploring as you couldn't see around a corner without actually looking around a corner which increased danger of agroing a mob if it was near.

Also, you are correct, having pre-knowledge does rob a bit of the experience, but if people avoid going to sites looking up map data, spell info, etc... they can retain some of the "exploration" of play.

I was in cablis and since it has been so long since I was there (never played an ikky, so I am not strongly familar with the zone) I was constantly getting lost and trying to figure out things I had forgotten about made it a bit of a challenge in play, but it was entertaining none the less.

All in all, a player who has never played it still can get some of the feeling providing they don't meta the game to death.

[Ranselknulf]

EverQuest has some great fun mechanics, but the classic experience won't ever be fully the same.

The manner in which people play these games is completely different, and having full knowledge of game styles and meta builds influences the emergent gaming experience.

Still a fun game, but I think trying to recapture the perfect experience is akin to "seeing the trees for the forest"

Agreed, they can't completely recapture it, but they get pretty close. Too many things were changed from original release and a lot of people don't even know exactly what.

I preferred casters being restricted to the spell book while meditating. It balanced their power to the content, provided additional game play mechanics through spells (alarms, druid tree mod to allow them to med safely, or a races invis, etc...) and gave a sense of "fear" while medding in dangerous places.

Also, it has been a while, but I don't remember original release allowing 3rd person play. There might have been camera angle switching, but I can't remember. This also provided a danger in play in terms of exploring as you couldn't see around a corner without actually looking around a corner which increased danger of agroing a mob if it was near.

Also, you are correct, having pre-knowledge does rob a bit of the experience, but if people avoid going to sites looking up map data, spell info, etc... they can retain some of the "exploration" of play.

I was in cablis and since it has been so long since I was there (never played an ikky, so I am not strongly familar with the zone) I was constantly getting lost and trying to figure out things I had forgotten about made it a bit of a challenge in play, but it was entertaining none the less.

All in all, a player who has never played it still can get some of the feeling providing they don't meta the game to death.

Agreed, there is still fun to be had.

I think its important to manage expectations though. Being pro-autist gamers, sometimes we get worked up over things that are unfixable.

[Xenich]

Some more resources if you wish to improve some things.

The AWE32 sounds are nice.

Also, I would recommend the High-res S3D files. They do improve the detail of the world, but don't change anything in terms of the art. This was a change they did at some point before luclin came out, it changes the default 32x32 textures to 256x256 and some to 512x512.

as for UI's Green server is fairly restricted (none of the new UI cheat crap), but there are some that consolidate it a bit more for a cleaner look. Default for green server is good though.

https://p99.yourfirefly.com/

Capture.PNG

[Zothique]

Hours later, I couldn't get into this ****. Uninstalled.

[Rand]

couldn't get into this ****

As it didn't feel fun, or didn't run at all?

[Xenich]

Hours later, I couldn't get into this ****. Uninstalled.

So what was its turn offs? Could you be more specific?

I am always interested in what people today who have never played EQ think the negatives are.