EverQuest thoughts

[Xenich]

So, I have been playing a bit of Project 1999 Green and I gotta say... it hits all the key aspects of play (at least for me).

1. Skills develop with use.
2. Movement is very slow.
3. Slow progression in exp, money, etc...
4. Mobs are difficult, and slow in combat.
5. Down time, very important I think... it sets the pace, no instant grat and it forces thinking before leaping.
6. Adds, runners, etc... Meaning Crowd control abilities/spells is definitely needed or careful locations are required.
7. Pulling, splitting, etc...
8. Spells have to be bought/dropped.
9. No map (Green is set for original release), learn your zones, which means getting lost.
10. No fancy mods/interfaces, very simple.
11. Dark nights, which means bonuses to having race/class abilities to deal with it.
12. NPCs can be killed, and will kill you if you attack them.
13. Corpse runs, gear left on corpse, bind points in the city, which means... long runs if you are way out in the middle of nowhere.
14. Mobs can run faster than you unless you have a specific aide.
15. Trains, massive ones....
16. Travel is dangerous (mixed level mobs in zones).
17. Travel is slow... long runs (run speed is release level, very slow and it takes a massive amount of time to travel across the world, think in the hour(s) if you are going to far continents.
18. Boat rides that can take 20-30 mins and if you fall off in some zones between, its a real challenge to get back to the boat.
19. No hand holding, no pointers, markers, Tutorials, etc... figure it out, good luck!
20. Mob holding weapon, drops weapon.


List goes on...

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

It would have to have all the crap people today would hate though.

When I logged in, due to it being "core" original (as close as they can get, though I wish it didn't have 3rd person and you can see when you med), I realized all the original feelings I had about the features came back.

I knew most of the world, but it has been so long, I don't remember, and so my mind started with the whole "what is over here, what is that, what will this drop, etc..." and all of the fears were there when I moved through a zone, and hell... frigging dark... I can't see crap... where the hell am I? Has anyone seen my corpse? (/wink)

Anyway, EQ has to be the greatest MMO of all time I think. While many I enjoyed, nothing compares to it even though they may have had some good features...

[Rand]

I am thinking that EQ means EverQuest, but I am not certain.

[Vergil]

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

Imagine being such a goy

[Zothique]

This sounds genuinely awesome.

[Xenich]

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

Imagine being such a goy

Considering the cost of most services these days, it isn't ridiculous and if it meant getting an actual game rather than "muh entertainment" slop that is the focus of MMOs today, well... it would be worth it

[Xenich]

This sounds genuinely awesome.

Did you ever play EQ?

[rusty_shackleford]

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

Imagine being such a goy

Prior to EQ, online games cost money by the hour. A few hundred dollars a month wasn't uncommon.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

People will say... "Nostalgia". Nope, if EQ were released in its very original state today as some new IP, I would pay 100 bucks for the copy and 25 bucks a month to play it.

Imagine being such a goy

Prior to EQ, online games cost money by the hour. A few hundred dollars a month wasn't uncommon.

Thank God this horror is ended.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

I've never seen people so fond of paying a monthly subscription for gameplay where most of it is a dull grind and runs from graveyard to corpse. Good thing WoW killed all that.

[Xenich]

I think the biggest failures of MMO designers is not recognizing the role that "consequence" plays in the game. The more they sought to "fix" what people complained about, the more the games lost that essence of risk.

Maybe I am just too old, but the "win" is only sweet when the journey to it is wrought with hardship. Without those obstacles, the victory has little value and often the most subtle of obstacles play a large part in that journey.

Consider run speed, travel, and mob pursuit. In most modern games, the player can outrun the monsters and so exploration and travel loses its danger. The player can often easily explore an area without too much risk. Not only can they usually avoid getting overrun by a monster while exploring (leashing, fast run speeds, etc...), but when they die, the process of recovery is usually "convenient".

Load up most modern MMOs and take a brand new character and just go exploring. In most cases, the player can move through new zones without issue and if they die, they can return and continue without too much downtime making exploration easy and reducing the size of the world because of it.

In release EQ, your run speed is abysmal. A level 1 toon has extreme difficulty getting through the world. In fact, the "level 1 run" between Freeport and Qeynos was an epic adventure that took hours wrought with constant fear through extremely dangerous areas and if you died anywhere along the way, you respawned back at the start and had to begin again.

Due to this... some zones were absolutely tense. Kithcor at night, Runnyeye (if you didn't know your way to the next zone exit), and even the false sense of security running through the Karanas (ie large open and expanse, but a very long way between zone lines) or Rivervale if you were an evil race was nerve wracking.

I remember it took me a long time to explore a lot of EQ simply because it was not practical to just run around everywhere if you weren't prepared. It was far too risky, but... it had its rewards if you succeeded.

In contrast when WoW came out, I was beta testing it and I decided to do a level 1 run throughout the zones. It took me a single play session to pretty much see most of the game. Mobs would leash, so by understanding this, if I kept my distance I could have enough of a run start to force the tether even though I could not run as fast as some.

When I died, I spirit spawned always to the nearest zone spot, so progress was not lost and It was a risk free run back to my corpse (or I could simply respawn there, with all gear intact if I decided to stop, making corpse recovery a simple riskless venture).

I explored most of the game in a single day, lost nothing (no penalties of note) and did it without any real hardships other than a few choke points that I could zerg resurrect though.

The fear, the tenseness, the consequence of play were all gone. The world felt smaller and a key aspect of game play was lost.

This among many other elements of play which are today considered "Inconvenient" have contributed to MMOs becoming nothing more than action spam fests focused on quick boss runs. They lost the meaning and experience of an MMO. It really is a shame.

[Xenich]

I've never seen people so fond of paying a monthly subscription for gameplay where most of it is a dull grind and runs from graveyard to corpse. Good thing WoW killed all that.

"Stands on a pile of **** and proclaims victory"

[Faceless_Sentinel]

I've never seen people so fond of paying a monthly subscription for gameplay where most of it is a dull grind and runs from graveyard to corpse. Good thing WoW killed all that.

"Stands on a pile of **** and proclaims victory"

I can apply the same to your statements.

[Xenich]

I've never seen people so fond of paying a monthly subscription for gameplay where most of it is a dull grind and runs from graveyard to corpse. Good thing WoW killed all that.

"Stands on a pile of **** and proclaims victory"

I can apply the same to your statements.

Yes, but can you outline why it is better for game play to remove all of those things?

For instance, explain to me the opposite of my above comment about travel and risk as to why it is so much better for the game to remove those penalties?

What improved the "game play" by making it easy for a player to quickly explore the world in a short amount of time with no risk or consequence?

How did this "improve" the over all experience and what is gained by removing those risks?

At least if you can do this logically, you can establish your subjective view.

Otherwise, you are simply proclaiming the changes are good, cuz...

[Faceless_Sentinel]

For instance, explain to me the opposite of my above comment about travel and risk as to why it is so much better for the game to remove those penalties?

What improved the "game play" by making it easy for a player to quickly explore the world in a short amount of time with no risk or consequence?

Because instead of exploring you do a corpse run after corpse run after corpse run. In MMO "risk or consequence" usually means you one hit killed by enemy higher level than you or have to run back to "capital" of location you are now to remove debuff that you can't remove by yourself by various MMO reasons(your class can't do this or you too low level to have/use this spell).

How did this "improve" the over all experience and what is gained by removing those risks?

It improves in a way that you actually do actual exploring, not corpse runs.

[rusty_shackleford]

Because instead of exploring

EQ has amazing exploration.

Have you played it or are you making statements based upon what others have said?

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Because instead of exploring

EQ has amazing exploration.

I don't trust you on that one.

Have you played it or are you making statements based upon what others have said?

The fact that WoW Classic was called a "easy version of the everquest" by the very fans of the everquest at the time is enough for me.

[rusty_shackleford]

The fact that WoW Classic was called a "easy version of the everquest" by the very fans of the everquest at the time is enough for me.

WoW and EQ aren't all that similar

[Xenich]

For instance, explain to me the opposite of my above comment about travel and risk as to why it is so much better for the game to remove those penalties?

What improved the "game play" by making it easy for a player to quickly explore the world in a short amount of time with no risk or consequence?

Because instead of exploring you do a corpse run after corpse run after corpse run. In MMO "risk or consequence" usually means you one hit killed by enemy higher level than you or have to run back to "capital" of location you are now to remove debuff that you can't remove by yourself by various MMO reasons(your class can't do this or you too low level to have/use this spell).

Why would you be doing so many corpse runs though? And if you are "one shot" by enemies, likely you are in a zone that is high level, or has risk factors which have to be accounted for, and prepared for.

For instance, Kithcore at day is an easy zone, low level mobs mostly and a good hunting place for lower levels... but at night... its high level mobs come out. Only reason to be there is to pass through and how/when you pass though it depends on night or day.

If you do go through at night, at low level... major care must be taken be it through extremely careful holding to the zone edges, watching pathing, using various spells (ie invis to undead), or having someone who has a run speed spell that can help you navigate quickly.

If you are constantly running back to your corpse, well... you might need to consider what you are doing, why, and if it is worth the risk in your venture.

This is what exploration is...

Taking that away does what? Sure.. removes the "consequence", basically removing the risk... but at what cost? How is that "game play" and why is it better that you no longer have risk? Because you want to win without effort, make decisions without thought? Basically spam keys and "win"?

How did this "improve" the over all experience and what is gained by removing those risks?

It improves in a way that you actually do actual exploring, not corpse runs.

All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Sounds like you want a walking simulator, not a game.

[Kalarion]

Because instead of exploring

EQ has amazing exploration.

I don't trust you on that one.

Have you played it or are you making statements based upon what others have said?

The fact that WoW Classic was called a "easy version of the everquest" by the very fans of the everquest at the time is enough for me.

You didn't play it, you won't accept the opinion of those who did. What is there to talk about? You've done your useless thread sharting, just shut the **** up.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

EQ has amazing exploration.

I don't trust you on that one.

Have you played it or are you making statements based upon what others have said?

The fact that WoW Classic was called a "easy version of the everquest" by the very fans of the everquest at the time is enough for me.

You didn't play it, you won't accept the opinion of those who did. What is there to talk about? You've done your useless thread sharting, just shut the **** up.

Cry more.

[Xenich]

EQ has amazing exploration.

I don't trust you on that one.

Have you played it or are you making statements based upon what others have said?

The fact that WoW Classic was called a "easy version of the everquest" by the very fans of the everquest at the time is enough for me.

You didn't play it, you won't accept the opinion of those who did. What is there to talk about? You've done your useless thread sharting, just shut the **** up.

Yeah, having an opinion on something you never played and then taking a hard stance on it, well... that is well, pretty ********.

"I don't know anything about it, but it sucks...!" wait.. what?

[Xenich]

I don't trust you on that one.





The fact that WoW Classic was called a "easy version of the everquest" by the very fans of the everquest at the time is enough for me.

You didn't play it, you won't accept the opinion of those who did. What is there to talk about? You've done your useless thread sharting, just shut the **** up.

Cry more.

You display the traits of a modern mainstream ******.

[Zothique]

This sounds genuinely awesome.

Did you ever play EQ?

I never have, no.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

You didn't play it, you won't accept the opinion of those who did. What is there to talk about? You've done your useless thread sharting, just shut the **** up.

Cry more.

You display the traits of a modern mainstream ******.

Criticism of game-design decisions that I think are bad now count as "modern mainstream ******"? Or saying "go **** your self" to a guy who rude with me for no reason count as "modern mainstream ******"?

[Faceless_Sentinel]

All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Gameplay is in ability to kill mobs on location. Being able to kill mobs I mean I don't need to spend 10 minutes fighting one ordinary mob and then requiring full heal.

[Xenich]

All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Gameplay is in ability to kill mobs on location. Being able to kill mobs I mean I don't need to spend 10 minutes fighting one ordinary mob and then requiring full heal.

This is why you are mainstream ********.

You narrow everything to ""kill mob" as game play but lack the depth of thought to consider all non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems.

That is, you are "action brain" moronic, typical of a console generation that thinks spamming buttons through arcade play is the entire aspect of game play.

[Xenich]

Cry more.

You display the traits of a modern mainstream ******.

Criticism of game-design decisions that I think are bad now count as "modern mainstream ******"? Or saying "go **** your self" to a guy who rude with me for no reason count as "modern mainstream ******"?

Complaining about a game you don't know **** about is mainstream ********. You have no clue what you are talking about and walk into a conversation about the details of a game and immediately down it like some kiddie internet ******.

Then, you go on to act offended when people react harshly to your strupidity?

Yes... you are a kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

All you are doing is running around. Where is the game play? Where is the risk? What consequence is there in your exploration? What decisions do you have to weight while in play? Where does class makeup, race, level, ability, etc... come into play if there is no risk?

Gameplay is in ability to kill mobs on location. Being able to kill mobs I mean I don't need to spend 10 minutes fighting one ordinary mob and then requiring full heal.

This is why you are mainstream ********.

You narrow everything to ""kill mob" as game play but lack the depth of thought to consider all non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems.

That is, you are "action brain" moronic, typical of a console generation that thinks spamming buttons through arcade play is the entire aspect of game play.

Give example of "non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems" when you talk about why mobs that one hit kill player is great addition in world exploration. Small reminder, we were talking about world exploration.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

You display the traits of a modern mainstream ******.

Criticism of game-design decisions that I think are bad now count as "modern mainstream ******"? Or saying "go **** your self" to a guy who rude with me for no reason count as "modern mainstream ******"?

Complaining about a game you don't know **** about is mainstream ********. You have no clue what you are talking about and walk into a conversation about the details of a game and immediately down it like some kiddie internet ******.

Then, you go on to act offended when people react harshly to your strupidity?

Yes... you are a kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot.

You gave a list of "key aspects of play" in main post of this topic and I say why I think some of them are bad.

You create strawman about complaining, "kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot", basically behaving like "kiddie mainstream ******** generation mentality and a internet moron to boot" and pretend you are better than me? Pathetic.

[Xenich]

Gameplay is in ability to kill mobs on location. Being able to kill mobs I mean I don't need to spend 10 minutes fighting one ordinary mob and then requiring full heal.

This is why you are mainstream ********.

You narrow everything to ""kill mob" as game play but lack the depth of thought to consider all non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems.

That is, you are "action brain" moronic, typical of a console generation that thinks spamming buttons through arcade play is the entire aspect of game play.

Give example of "non-combat aspects of game play which contribute to over all RPG systems" when you talk about why mobs that one hit kill player is great addition in world exploration. Small reminder, we were talking about world exploration.

I gave you an example. Even asked you to provide the opposite to my mention.

My entire point deals with world exploration pitfalls, obstacles and consequence.