Junior Adventurer's Guild - November: Dragon Age: Origins

[rusty_shackleford]

Was Cailan really planning on leaving Anora for the Empress of Orlais, or was Loghain exaggerating?
David Gaider: Hahah! You know it's funny, that was a plot that was originally in Origins, and we couldn't include it. The Empress of Orlais was supposed to have been visiting Denerim during the time of the Blight. We had a whole plot prepared for it, but that's the way development goes. Things get cut all the time. So what you saw in Return to Ostagar was sort of a callback to what was happening there. The plan originally actually was yes, that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora originally, and Loghain discovered what was going on. But of course that's not why he did what he did right? Loghain being the completely reasonable man that he is...

So it is more or less confirmed, then. Weak writing, since there is absolutely no reason as to why the empress would go to Denerim during the Blight (I guess it would have to be BEFORE the Blight, right?).
Where did you find this? I'd like to read more of the (madman rants) of Gaider's.

2010 PAX interview with Gaider

[fkirenicus]

Cailan was very much fine with leaving the ruling/administrating aspect of being a royal to his wife while he galivanted around jousting in tournaments and banging every blushing maid that looked at him. Anora used that willingness to her advantage and did a lot for peacetime Ferelden. Celene would've just raped the land (figuratively through taxes and literally with the chevaliers) while Cailan would've been riding around on a fancier horse ******* french women instead.

IMO you are reading far too much of his father into Cailan now.

[rusty_shackleford]

You pretty much have to read the two tie-in novels or just skim the notes to understand Loghain. If you keep your knowledge entirely self-contained to the game, Loghain is a completely different character.

[TKVNC]

Realistically should be grabbing the best and most loyal soldiers in Denerim for Riordan's last minute joining

You mean all the soldiers that would have died if Loghain stayed to fight at Ostagar?

Ostagar was a set-up.

It was Loghain's entire plan to kill all of the Grey Wardens; Cailan was not supposed to be on the Front Line.

Loghain is a mentally ******** farmer, who thinks that because the Wardens tried to overthrow the Fereldan royalty a few hundred years ago, they all are still guilty.

Cailan is just childish, and thinks he is in a story - and does not realise that Loghain is a bitter old man, and ******** farmer, so he trusts him with his life.

He didn't pull out to save his men, he never intended to fight in the first place.

[fkirenicus]

So it is more or less confirmed, then. Weak writing, since there is absolutely no reason as to why the empress would go to Denerim during the Blight (I guess it would have to be BEFORE the Blight, right?).
Where did you find this? I'd like to read more of the (madman rants) of Gaider's.

2010 PAX interview with Gaider

It's quite insane how the DA writers seem to enjoy destroying their own setting/universe/lore, even on purpose (or at least it seems so at times!). Schmucks.

[rusty_shackleford]

Loghain is a mentally ******** farmer, who thinks that because the Wardens tried to overthrow the Fereldan royalty a few hundred years ago, they all are still guilty.

The wardens just tried to take over ferelden again(to give it to the darkspawn, no less) a few years before the game starts. They also tried to kill the king.

[Tweed]

Loghains's lines at Return to Ostagar are great, it's endless bickering back and forth with Wynne and he gets especially ****** when you find the documents in the chest. Of course they had to do him dirty in Awakening by sending him off to Orlais, but he doesn't even sound half surprised about it.

[fkirenicus]

You pretty much have to read the two tie-in novels or just skim the notes to understand Loghain. If you keep your knowledge entirely self-contained to the game, Loghain is a completely different character.

Yes, but remember "the executors told him to do it!" or some such... I COULD CRY.

[logincrash]

Cailan was very much fine with leaving the ruling/administrating aspect of being a royal to his wife while he galivanted around jousting in tournaments and banging every blushing maid that looked at him. Anora used that willingness to her advantage and did a lot for peacetime Ferelden. Celene would've just raped the land (figuratively through taxes and literally with the chevaliers) while Cailan would've been riding around on a fancier horse ******* french women instead.

IMO you are reading far too much of his father into Cailan now.

When it comes to his philandering? Maybe there is too much of my headcanon. But not when it comes to his ineffectiveness/unwillingness as an actual ruler. He's just a good-hearted but spoiled prince. Celene would've ran circles around him.

[TKVNC]

Loghain is a mentally ******** farmer, who thinks that because the Wardens tried to overthrow the Fereldan royalty a few hundred years ago, they all are still guilty.

The wardens just tried to take over ferelden again(to give it to the darkspawn, no less) a few years before the game starts. They also tried to kill the king.

I don't take random books written after the games release by a retcon obsessed madman as canon.

...and neither should you - Teyrn Loghain

[fkirenicus]

Loghain is a mentally ******** farmer, who thinks that because the Wardens tried to overthrow the Fereldan royalty a few hundred years ago, they all are still guilty.

The wardens just tried to take over ferelden again(to give it to the darkspawn, no less) a few years before the game starts. They also tried to kill the king.

To say that the wardens did that is (also) stretching things a bit far.
(For those who want to read what this is about: https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Drago ... g#Synopsis )

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't take random books written after the games release by a retcon obsessed madman as canon.

Both were written before the game released.

[rusty_shackleford]

"WHY DIDN'T LOGHAIN JUST TRUST THE GREY WARDENS????"

The rest of the surviving Grey Wardens and Maric attempt to escape. Only Duncan, Fiona and Maric make it out of the Deep Roads, with Kell and Hafter sacrificing themselves to buy the others time, only to find themselves tricked and captured by First Enchanter Remille and taken to the Circle Tower which was taken over by Orlesian Circle mages and templars. There, they re-encounter the Architect, Bregan, Genevieve and Utha[Editor's note: all three are grey wardens]. It is revealed that the Architect has made a deal with Remille, offering him knowledge of darkspawn magic and Maric as a captive for the Orlesian Emperor in exchange for his help in spreading the taint in all the major cities of Thedas. However, the Architect's plans are thwarted when Loghain, having learned of the Orlesians taking over the tower, arrives with a Fereldan army to recapture it, and Bregan and Genevieve renounce the Architect's plans. Bregan, Genevieve and Remille are killed in the final showdown, but the Architect and Utha escape.

Fiona and Duncan leave to visit the Warden headquarters in Weisshaupt. Free of Remille's trinket, Fiona recovers from the artificially accelerated taint, and the Warden mages think she may actually be the first Warden to be free of it forever and thus avoid the Calling. Duncan and Fiona return to Ferelden: Duncan to be second-in-command of the Wardens in Ferelden, where Maric has agreed to their return to the kingdom after 200 years of exile despite the protests of Loghain and others, and Fiona to see Maric. She and Maric had become lovers while in the Deep Roads.

The only reason they were allowed back is because maric wanted to stick his **** in elfussy.

[fkirenicus]

Loghain is a mentally ******** farmer, who thinks that because the Wardens tried to overthrow the Fereldan royalty a few hundred years ago, they all are still guilty.

The wardens just tried to take over ferelden again(to give it to the darkspawn, no less) a few years before the game starts. They also tried to kill the king.

I don't take random books written after the games release by a retcon obsessed madman as canon.

...and neither should you - Teyrn Loghain

Both The Stolen Throne and The Calling were released prior to the computer games. They are background stories for Origins and Awakening, respectively.

[logincrash]

I'm not sure if I'd posted this picture before, but I have it in my Dragon Age folder and this seems to be as good a time as any.

[TKVNC]

The wardens just tried to take over ferelden again(to give it to the darkspawn, no less) a few years before the game starts. They also tried to kill the king.

I don't take random books written after the games release by a retcon obsessed madman as canon.

...and neither should you - Teyrn Loghain

Both The Stolen Throne and The Calling were released prior to the computer games. They are background stories for Origins and Awakening, respectively.

Ok you've got me there. But given how they contradict pretty much everything in game, and were almost certainly written after the games development cycle was finished, I stand by my point. Even if it's not technically correct anymore.

[rusty_shackleford]

*save ferelden from orlais*
*save ferelden from the darkspawn, the grey wardens, and orlais*

"NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN WITHOUT THE WARDENS!!!"

The last time loghain saw a grey warden they were working with the darkspawn.

[TKVNC]

*save ferelden from orlais*
*save ferelden from the darkspawn, the grey wardens, and orlais*

"NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN WITHOUT THE WARDENS!!!"

The last time loghain saw a grey warden they were working with the darkspawn.

Could have made the -actual- games story line up with the books then. Rather than have an entirely different story in the books, to the game.

Blizzard did the same thing, and it is entirely pathetic. If you cannot create a cohesive story, and use external books to redefine the story, then you are a dogshit writer, but worst of all, you're a charlatan.

[fkirenicus]

I don't take random books written after the games release by a retcon obsessed madman as canon.

Both The Stolen Throne and The Calling were released prior to the computer games. They are background stories for Origins and Awakening, respectively.

Ok you've got me there. But given how they contradict pretty much everything in game, and were almost certainly written after the games development cycle was finished, I stand by my point. Even if it's not technically correct anymore.

That was the very point of them, and what another user has called the dichotomy of Gaider's. It works up to a certain point, but if overdone it just becomes silly.
And I think perhaps that is exactly what happened.

[rusty_shackleford]

*save ferelden from orlais*
*save ferelden from the darkspawn, the grey wardens, and orlais*

"NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN WITHOUT THE WARDENS!!!"

The last time loghain saw a grey warden they were working with the darkspawn.

Could have made the -actual- games story line up with the books then. Rather than have an entirely different story in the books, to the game.

Blizzard did the same thing, and it is entirely pathetic. If you cannot create a cohesive story, and use external books to redefine the story, then you are a dogshit writer, but worst of all, you're a charlatan.

Lots of stuff got cut.

[fkirenicus]

*save ferelden from orlais*
*save ferelden from the darkspawn, the grey wardens, and orlais*

"NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN WITHOUT THE WARDENS!!!"

The last time loghain saw a grey warden they were working with the darkspawn.

Could have made the -actual- games story line up with the books then. Rather than have an entirely different story in the books, to the game.

Blizzard did the same thing, and it is entirely pathetic. If you cannot create a cohesive story, and use external books to redefine the story, then you are a dogshit writer, but worst of all, you're a charlatan.

Or, you are a money grabber. I think the bill fits both Bioware and Blizzard.

[TKVNC]

*save ferelden from orlais*
*save ferelden from the darkspawn, the grey wardens, and orlais*

"NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN WITHOUT THE WARDENS!!!"

The last time loghain saw a grey warden they were working with the darkspawn.

Could have made the -actual- games story line up with the books then. Rather than have an entirely different story in the books, to the game.

Blizzard did the same thing, and it is entirely pathetic. If you cannot create a cohesive story, and use external books to redefine the story, then you are a dogshit writer, but worst of all, you're a charlatan.

Lots of stuff got cut.

Perhaps. But the issue is, when there are so many contradictions, it becomes impossible to actually care about what the writer says is true - and I would say it becomes your duty to simply view each part as separate, unconnected stories.

To simply argue that because the same writer created them, that they must be correct, is fallacious at best and moronic at worst.

[TKVNC]

*save ferelden from orlais*
*save ferelden from the darkspawn, the grey wardens, and orlais*

"NOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST FIGHT THE DARKSPAWN WITHOUT THE WARDENS!!!"

The last time loghain saw a grey warden they were working with the darkspawn.

Could have made the -actual- games story line up with the books then. Rather than have an entirely different story in the books, to the game.

Blizzard did the same thing, and it is entirely pathetic. If you cannot create a cohesive story, and use external books to redefine the story, then you are a dogshit writer, but worst of all, you're a charlatan.

Or, you are a money grabber. I think the bill fits both Bioware and Blizzard.

Very probable.

[TheEmptyRoad]

He was smart enough to know to withdraw from certain defeat and prevent the Orlais from conquering Ferelden again.

Really, at that point there was no indication that Orlais had such designs on their agenda. Not with the empress. Her cousin would probably think that way, though.

There is precedent in the Lore for Orlais expanding into vulnerable territories they previously aided during a Blight. Look into the history of the Free Marches.

[fkirenicus]

He was smart enough to know to withdraw from certain defeat and prevent the Orlais from conquering Ferelden again.

Really, at that point there was no indication that Orlais had such designs on their agenda. Not with the empress. Her cousin would probably think that way, though.

There is precedent in the Lore for Orlais expanding into vulnerable territories they previously aided during a Blight. Look into the history of the Free Marches.

Yep, but again: not Celene. Gaspard, almost certainly.

[logincrash]

Yep, but again: not Celene. Gaspard, almost certainly.

Why not Celene? Taking Ferelden through marriage is exactly her style.

[fkirenicus]

Yep, but again: not Celene. Gaspard, almost certainly.

Why not Celene? Taking Ferelden through marriage is exactly her style.

Because Celene unlike her predecessors and living cousins does not seem to have any interest in "taking a nation" at all. She is not a conqueror.
This is (maybe) partly because she must focus on maintaining control in her own nation (which she fails at, in the end).

[Reichspepe]

@TheEmptyRoad And because the game is actually competently written, you can call Alistair out on it. Though I feel like after playing again that he was part of the beginning of "quippy funny" marvel-like writing we have so much of now. Nonetheless I still like him, as there is much more to him than that aspect of his character.

I know, but his stubborn refusal to recognize that Loghain would be an asset if he survived his Joining because “hE doESnT DEseRvE iT” just drives me up the wall. Like, my dude, Grey Wardens are not and Never Have Been ‘Noble Knights’, despite what people like Cailan seem to think. We need EVERYbody against the Blight. Not to mention the delicious irony in making Loghain a Grey Warden - the very order he attempted to discredit and destroy - by putting him through the Joining and thus making him understand *exactly* what they are and why they do what they do. The Wardens recruit whoever and whomever they need to get the job done, period. /endrant

You can get Alistair to deal with it and spare Loghain, but you have to "harden" him for that to work.

[logincrash]

Because Celene unlike her predecessors and living cousins does not seem to have any interest in "taking a nation" at all. She is not a conqueror.
This is (maybe) partly because she must focus on maintaining control in her own nation (which she fails at, in the end).

Why in the world would she be even entertaining an idea of marrying a Fereldan king then, nevermind actually participating in secret talks with said king? It would do her no favours in Orlesian court to marry a barbarian king of a country most of the Orlesians still consider a rebellious backwater of an Orlesian province other than the prestige from bringing said province back to the fold without military intervention.
I also think you're under the impression that conquest is only done through martial means.

[Stack of Turtles]

Because Celene unlike her predecessors and living cousins does not seem to have any interest in "taking a nation" at all. She is not a conqueror.
This is (maybe) partly because she must focus on maintaining control in her own nation (which she fails at, in the end).

Why in the world would she be even entertaining an idea of marrying a Fereldan king then, nevermind actually participating in secret talks with said king? It would do her no favours in Orlesian court to marry a barbarian king of a country most of the Orlesians still consider a rebellious backwater of an Orlesian province other than the prestige from bringing said province back to the fold without military intervention.
I also think you're under the impression that conquest is only done through martial means.

martial, marital, not so big a difference really