What is "Good itemization" to you?

[Element]

Something that is unique. Boots of blinding speed, sunlight maggot etc.

[Norfleet]

Good itemization is where every item serves a meaningful in-game purpose instead of just being vendortrash. +1 swords are purposeless when +3 swords exist, but at least there wasn't clear wasted dev effort in creating them since they're just a number. The saddest of bad itemization is when a dev clearly put work into creating an item or system that ultimately serves no actual purpose except to be vendortrash.

[Havitner]

Crusaders of Might & Magic

That's the first game with RPG-style stats I remember playing as a kid. I vividly recall opening the character sheet for the first time by accident ~1 hour into the game and thinking it was the coolest thing ever.
I could find and equip multiple different items with Fire Resistance to become really resistant to fire, and there was even a neat window to tell me exactly how resistant I was.

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[Katler3]

- good resource management, you're not flooded with ammos, food, etc... (Neo scavenger or wands of fireball in D&D games) meaning you have to use your resources carefully, nor flooded with money, meaning that until the end of the game you must choose what to buy (new weapons especially) and can't just buy anything you want whenever you want ; it gives some meaning to exploration ; in the case of Wizardry games or NES JRPGs there's also some limited inventory which makes resource management really interesting, there's a moment while exploring a dungeon where you must choose to go back to town, it's not just a cakewalk, it's fun trying to build your party and use your MPs efficiency to go the further you can without constantly go back to town.
- good weapon variety (Dark Souls) where a lot of weapons can be useful depending on your characters and on how you want to play the game, it's not just some no-brainer choice
- In the case of the D&D games or other games without ridiculously high numbers (Pools of radiance, Eye of the beholder but also Voidspire Tactics), there's also a very fluid progression between new weapons, finding a +2 weapon when you only own a +1 is satisfying because of the very robust D&D system (while in a lot of high number games you won't really care about dealing 108 instead of 93 damage, maybe you will change weapon after each combat or maybe you will never change but in both cases it's just boring), you're not flooded with weapons with additional effects to damage so finding a weapon with an additional effect on a weapon is always cool and I'd add that having to find the spells help and it's something I really like when new spells, skills, or even jobs are unlockable through exploration
- following the previous point, it also helps when everything you find doesn't always feel super generic, doesn't mean you necessarily need only handcrafted stuff (in Elminage Gothic the mostly random stuff with an interesting variety works fine) but handcrafted stuff is generally much more attractive (for example I can remember a lot of weapons from Dungeon Master) ; FF9 also has good itemization because you unlock new skills via equipement, finding new equipement which will give you some new skill is very satisfying with boosting service https://onlyboosters.gg/classic-hardcore/gold/.
So more generally I'd say that if I never give a **** about the consumables I use, about the money I get or spend nor about what I find nor about what I can buy the itemization sucks, if I have to care of at least one of these aspects (and even about crafting sometimes, while crafting is generally boring which doesn't mean it's a big deal since you generally don't really have to use it) it's probably better.

[Xenich]

Good itemization is where every item serves a meaningful in-game purpose instead of just being vendortrash. +1 swords are purposeless when +3 swords exist, but at least there wasn't clear wasted dev effort in creating them since they're just a number. The saddest of bad itemization is when a dev clearly put work into creating an item or system that ultimately serves no actual purpose except to be vendortrash.

Well, if progression is slow, the +1 is a useful. Problem is, due to ******** players today, if you don't go "BIG BOOM, BIG POW!" with extremely fast progression, they get bored.

So it isn't about the number, it is the progression and as long as they keep catering to ADHD players who require significant increases for going "poopie", you will have constant garbage being created with each reward.

I mean, look how long you used the same weapon in EQ before upgrading? How long it took to level? The developers do this to themselves, it doesn't have to be this way.

[Tweed]

Good itemization: Dickbuilders, rougelites, survival crafties, obscure ancient rpgs, etc.
Bad itemization: all the scared cow crpgs we love.

Not looking good bros.

[rusty_shackleford]

Deadfire, a game I'm very negative about in most aspects, had pretty good itemization. I especially liked the soulbound items that you could level up by completing certain feats.

[Rand]

since Morrowind's stat system does not mean a Wizard using Fists of Randagulf will be as good as a Fighter who is using them - unlike the Hill Giant Strength in BG3.

I dunno about BG3 for certain, but a wizard's BAB (base attack bonus) progression is always worse than a fighter's of the same level, so the wizard at the same level will always be worse in the to-hit rolls.

[Rand]

That's why I like how BG2 handled things. Your role in the crafting process, as an adventurer, is to find the necessary components and cough up the capital, while the true craftsman makes the item for you.

Not only is this a great hook to encourage players to go explore, but also an excellent money sink.

I'm amazed no other RPG has gone with this approach.

You have not played enough of Spiderweb Software's games.
They ALL do this now.

[rusty_shackleford]

FO4/FO76 had nice 'crafting' where your item acted as a shell you added components to. FO76 greatly expanded it. You rip components off gear you find, make new components, etc., Some games have a similar system but it ends up being very bland because there's not enough different kinds of components to compete with each other so it becomes more like diablo 2's sockets.

[Tweed]

Good itemization:

Noita: There are almost no useless spells. Everything has a purpose even if it isn't readily apparent or highly specialized. There are however, useless perks, but perks can be rerolled. It's a question of whether or not you reroll them when you find them or forgo getting a perk and hope you live long enough to roll them later for cheap. Sometimes you take a wand with "bad" stats to keep you alive because it's the only thing standing between you and the next holy mountain. There's also special wands in the game that can be a real boon if you know where they are and how to get them.

Slay the Spire: Luck of the draw determines what kind of deck you can build and you need to have most of your cards in order before the second level is over or you'll have a bad life, but there aren't many useless cards, just high risk, high rewards for people who want to play that way.

Wasteland 1: Hitting someone with a crowbar does more damage than fists. Hitting someone with an ax hurts, hitting them with a proton ax REALLY hurts. An M1911 does more damage than a 9mm, easy to understand. A Flamethrower does a lot of damage too, but it's too short range and fuel is hard to find and training is specialized. One or two people trained in AT weapons willing to lug around nothing but LAW Rockets and Sabots will be a terror in the late game and hold their own along side teammates trained in energy weapons. The only weapons that are useless are rifles which can be skipped, but a newbie doesn't know that.

Bad Itemization:

Dragon Age: Origins: There's tons upon tons of vendor trash and it's by design or else they wouldn't be selling you so many backpacks to carry all this crap around. Even the "good" stuff is mostly trash to save up for those really nice items for sale in the shops, the ones selling for 80-120 gold. Nearly all of my money has gone for crafting, skill manuals, and those certain, special items.

Icewind Dale: +1 swords! +1 swords EVERYWHERE!! Same deal as DA:O, you're hoarding all this crap for a few really expensive items in shops and spell scrolls, especially in the expansions. It's nice when you buy some killer spells or upgrade for your guys and the bag of holding makes lugging vendor trash easy, but poor itemization is poor itemization.

[rusty_shackleford]

sword+1 was the worst mistake gygax made

[Norfleet]

sword+1 was the worst mistake gygax made

I wouldn't say worst, but "the exact same thing but better in every way" isn't a very interesting itemization tradeoff. Magical swords should come with interesting tradeoffs like "once drawn, it cannot be sheathed until it has been quenched in blood", or "functions as mundane sword unless it has bathed the blood of the innocent recently". The DM's guide actually recommended against making magic items bland, and +1 swords were just included as part of the mechanical effect for what they would actually do in combat.

But when it comes down to "the same thing but better and possibly more expensive", this latter part only matters when you're trying to weigh whether you should be equipping your forces with +1 swords, or just spamming basic spear infantry because spear infantry is OP.

[Tweed]

sword+1 was the worst mistake gygax made

I wouldn't say worst, but "the exact same thing but better in every way" isn't a very interesting itemization tradeoff. Magical swords should come with interesting tradeoffs like "once drawn, it cannot be sheathed until it has been quenched in blood", or "functions as mundane sword unless it has bathed the blood of the innocent recently". The DM's guide actually recommended against making magic items bland, and +1 swords were just included as part of the mechanical effect for what they would actually do in combat.

But when it comes down to "the same thing but better and possibly more expensive", this latter part only matters when you're trying to weigh whether you should be equipping your forces with +1 swords, or just spamming basic spear infantry because spear infantry is OP.

In a low fantasy campaign setting a +1 sword can feel like an artifact, but all pc adaptions are Monty Hauls.

[rusty_shackleford]

In a low fantasy campaign setting a +1 sword can feel like an artifact,

This is only because the sword has magical properties(allowing you to damage things you otherwise couldn't), not because of the +1.

[Tweed]

In a low fantasy campaign setting a +1 sword can feel like an artifact,

This is only because the sword has magical properties(allowing you to damage things you otherwise couldn't), not because of the +1.

Would it make you feel any better if it was called "MagICaL sWORd"? instead?

[rusty_shackleford]

In a low fantasy campaign setting a +1 sword can feel like an artifact,

This is only because the sword has magical properties(allowing you to damage things you otherwise couldn't), not because of the +1.

Would it make you feel any better if it was called "MagICaL sWORd"? instead?

I'd feel better if it actually did something magical.
Sting glowed blue when orcs and goblins were near, cut through the webs of Shelob with ease, and was capable of piercing a troll's tough hide.

[Tweed]

This is only because the sword has magical properties(allowing you to damage things you otherwise couldn't), not because of the +1.

Would it make you feel any better if it was called "MagICaL sWORd"? instead?

I'd feel better if it actually did something magical.
Sting glowed blue when orcs and goblins were near, cut through the webs of Shelob with ease, and was capable of piercing a troll's tough hide.

It hits enemies that can't be hit with mundane weapons.

[rusty_shackleford]

Would it make you feel any better if it was called "MagICaL sWORd"? instead?

I'd feel better if it actually did something magical.
Sting glowed blue when orcs and goblins were near, cut through the webs of Shelob with ease, and was capable of piercing a troll's tough hide.

It hits enemies that can't be hit with mundane weapons.

But that's not a property of the weapon itself, that's a property of anything magical. It could be a magic broom handle.

[Tweed]

I'd feel better if it actually did something magical.
Sting glowed blue when orcs and goblins were near, cut through the webs of Shelob with ease, and was capable of piercing a troll's tough hide.

It hits enemies that can't be hit with mundane weapons.

But that's not a property of the weapon itself, that's a property of anything magical. It could be a magic broom handle.

Rusty doesn't think the Hoe of Destruction is cool. Please publicly shame him.

[TKVNC]

FO4/FO76 had nice 'crafting' where your item acted as a shell you added components to. FO76 greatly expanded it. You rip components off gear you find, make new components, etc., Some games have a similar system but it ends up being very bland because there's not enough different kinds of components to compete with each other so it becomes more like diablo 2's sockets.

Blacklight: Retribution - was a FPS shooter with Halo-lite features had (at the time) the most advanced weapon, and armour customisation (that was gameplay, and stat related) I have seen outside of an RPG. It was perhaps one of the greatest FPS Shooters ever made, and was a trailblazer.

Gun receiver changes, barrel changes, stock changes, scope changes, muzzle changes, and ammunition.

For armour you could swap helmets, chest, and legs - all with different stats and bonuses.

There was never even a single 'this is better' part, they all had tradeoffs.

[Oyster Sauce]

FO4/FO76 had nice 'crafting' where your item acted as a shell you added components to. FO76 greatly expanded it. You rip components off gear you find, make new components, etc., Some games have a similar system but it ends up being very bland because there's not enough different kinds of components to compete with each other so it becomes more like diablo 2's sockets.

Blacklight: Retribution - was a FPS shooter with Halo-lite features had (at the time) the most advanced weapon, and armour customisation (that was gameplay, and stat related) I have seen outside of an RPG. It was perhaps one of the greatest FPS Shooters ever made, and was a trailblazer.

Gun receiver changes, barrel changes, stock changes, scope changes, muzzle changes, and ammunition.

For armour you could swap helmets, chest, and legs - all with different stats and bonuses.

There was never even a single 'this is better' part, they all had tradeoffs.

The hentai censorship grenades were really cool

[rusty_shackleford]

There was never even a single 'this is better' part, they all had tradeoffs.

This is where a lot of games that attempt to do it drop the ball, they either have only a handful of mods that are just upgrades for each other, or a couple of mods that are flat out better rather than all being situational.

[Tweed]

Then there's examples of games with interesting itemization with obfuscation like Lands of Lore where raw numbers don't always tell the entire story. Some weapons are worth keeping around purely because they do things like boost rogue skills which help with lockpicking. Others have hidden abilities or damage certain enemies. It's worse in LoL 2 where the best weapons have to be made through obscure methods.

Dungeon Master 2: Skullkeep is really bad about this as well. A lot of items have hidden abilities or stats you could only ever know about if you bought the hint book, not even trial or error would let you figure it out.

[rusty_shackleford]

Some weapons are worth keeping around purely because they do things like boost rogue skills which help with lockpicking.

Actually rather hate juggling items that give bonuses to skills tbh. It has become a big pet peeve of mine.

[TKVNC]

Some weapons are worth keeping around purely because they do things like boost rogue skills which help with lockpicking.

Actually rather hate juggling items that give bonuses to skills tbh. It has become a big pet peeve of mine.

Well it's goofy and unimmersive. Breaks the suspension of disbelief by forcing meta choices

[Xenich]

sword+1 was the worst mistake gygax made

Well, in the games we played, magical weapons were very rare. Getting a +1 weapon simply meant you could finally hit some magical creatures and was a coveted item. The named items were major multi-campaign progressions, so I guess it is how the DM implemented them. Problem with some of the video games is they relied too heavy on magic items rather than forcing the player to use normal weapons in most cases with the aid of spells to be able to deal with certain monsters.

[Rand]

sword+1 was the worst mistake gygax made

That started when it was a wargame of entering the dungeon under the castle and a class only had a couple of levels, not numbered.
I believe the first two fighter levels were named "hero" and "superhero" and the combat to-hit tables jumped quite a few numbers so a magic sword +1 gave you a slight buff, but less than the next class level.
Even a +3 sword was less than gaining a level in fighter.

[Tweed]

Even with it's faults LoL 1 and 2 have good itemization, most items are interesting and have interesting abilities. It's just that once you know how the game is played a lot of them fall by the wayside for those particularly powerful pieces of gear. For anyone who HASN'T played LoL 1/2 though I'd recommend NOT checking a guide if they have any interest in playing the games so that they can enjoy all the items to their full benefits. There are really loads of fun things to play with and in LoL 2 some items play well with certain forms. To date Lands of Lore 2 is the only game I know that lets you be a lich lizard, a very ******* powerful lich lizard with enough magic to toast just about any enemy in the game provided you don't get hit, even if it's just a temporary status effect.

[Lich]

CDDA has good itemization, probably the best in roguelikes.