Loghain was the good guy, actually.

[Oyster Sauce]

He's objectively evil, rogay is going to use some "muh moral relativity" argument.

What about the guy who used an apostate blood mage as an assassin to poison an innocent ally?

[rusty_shackleford]

He's objectively evil, rogay is going to use some "muh moral relativity" argument.

What about the guy who used an apostate blood mage as an assassin to poison an innocent ally?

never happened

[Rand]

If he is not evil, why was he left in a cage for murder?

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

I've never recruited him because he openly admits to killing those families without any remorse.

The darkspawn must be defeated and I will accept any arm lent to that cause.
Dark fantasy, remember?
He can die in battle, for the greater good.

[fkirenicus]

He's objectively evil, rogay is going to use some "muh moral relativity" argument.

Some 15 years have passed since DAO, and one might well say that a "moral relativity" motive was used by Bioware at least when they placed Sten in the cage for murders he did commit, all because his "code of honor" demanded he find his sword (or: he was bonkers). "Grey Warden", "does all it takes to win", etc... Did I kill Sten, or leave him there? No, he could help me against the Blight.

This type of character has been ever more noticeable in games (hint: an unspeakable ultra-gay vampire in BG3 who tries to drink your blood, and who you are supposed to drive a stake through the heart of feel sorry for, for example).

[Roguey]

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

He's lying.

"I may sign a treaty with the Qunari once I become king."

"My people do not negotiate."

"Don't you people sign agreements before and keep to the terms? Don't you have honor?"

"We only signed because you believed in those terms. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our ships here."

Nothing a qunari says can be trusted.

He's just as content to stay in his cage and get slaughtered by the darkspawn when you leave. It's purely on the PC whether or not to free him.

[Acrux]

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

I've never recruited him because he openly admits to killing those families without any remorse.

The darkspawn must be defeated and I will accept any arm lent to that cause.
Dark fantasy, remember?
He can die in battle, for the greater good.

That argument doesn't resonate with me. I'm actively trying to get treaties in place with armies. I don't think one guy - from a race no one has heard of - is going to make enough of a difference to matter.

[rusty_shackleford]

sten was just male viconia btw

[Roguey]

sten was just male viconia btw

Viconia killed that family for no reason, not out of temporary insanity.

[rusty_shackleford]

sten was just male viconia btw

Viconia killed that family for no reason, not out of temporary insanity.

He didn't even ask where the sword was, he admits this.

[J1M]

If he is not evil, why was he left in a cage for murder?

They have an entire sidequest about it, he went into an autistic rage when he woke up and lost his sword, it was momentary insanity. Second degree murder.

Sidequest unconfirmed. Murderer was left in cage during the evacuation.

"I only murder people when I briefly misplace my personal items." -Upstanding citizens of all walks of life according to Roguey

[rusty_shackleford]

Threads like these just make my hatred for IP laws grow more, if that was possible. Creating a similar setting just isn't the same.

[Tweed]

sten was just male viconia btw

Sten is a bro, Viconia is a slut.

[Roguey]

He didn't even ask where the sword was, he admits this.

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

Sidequest unconfirmed. Murderer was left in cage during the evacuation.

"I only murder people when I briefly misplace my personal items." -Upstanding citizens of all walks of life according to Roguey

He's Special Needs and had a Heated Gamer Moment.

[J1M]

He didn't even ask where the sword was, he admits this.

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

Sidequest unconfirmed. Murderer was left in cage during the evacuation.

"I only murder people when I briefly misplace my personal items." -Upstanding citizens of all walks of life according to Roguey

He's Special Needs and had a Heated Gamer Moment.

So not fit for polite society. Needs to be confined or executed for public safety. Got it.

[rusty_shackleford]

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

He's an objectively evil animal.

[Oyster Sauce]

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

He's an objectively evil animal.

killing foreign civilians is morally good tho

[Roguey]

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

He's an objectively evil animal.

Heracles killed his own wife and children in a tard rage and he's considered a Greek hero.

[Acrux]

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

He's an objectively evil animal.

Heracles killed his own wife and children in a tard rage and he's considered a Greek hero.

"Hero" in that context is a techical word that sure doesn't mean "really good upstanding guy".

[J1M]

Because he was too full of rage to think straight.

He's an objectively evil animal.

Heracles killed his own wife and children in a tard rage and he's considered a Greek hero.

Was that because a literal god induced hallucinations in his mind or because he misplaced his sandals?

[PixiGreen]

This is what our fountain of knowledge David Gaider had to say about qunari (the "journalist" is really something here!):

ISLAM AND THE QUN

Hanging around in Dragon Age fan discussions, and absorbing as much information as I could about the Qunari as someone who loves and defends them, I was displeased to discover that David Gaider had previously referred to the fictional Qun followers in the universe as “militant Islamic Borg.”

Intent is not magical, and I defer to the thoughts of those who are directly targeted by Islamophobia– in this case, specifically anti-Black Islamophobia, given the North African Muslim context of the real-life historical aspects the Qunari are pulled from. In addition, the portrayal of the Qunari can be very problematic in general. That said, feeling awfully curious, and unable to find context for this particular quote, I asked David Gaider to explain what he meant by it.

“As soon as it was pointed out to me,” he shared, “I was like ‘Oh wow, I did not mean it that way.’ It was in a thread where I was talking about… this is early, this is before Dragon Age: Origins even came out, and people wanted to know more about the world, and they were looking for analogies between real world history and what was going to be in Thedas.” Gaider discussed the Qunari “assimilation of other cultures into their own” via supernatural mind-wipe as “something the Borg do.” (Unlike the Borg, however, all evidence points to Qunari mostly doing this to invaders and those who have wronged them, not via abductions and violence against innocents. At the very least, they’re nicer than the Chantry.) Gaider said he intended “Islamic” as a separate point, only to describe the analogy between the Qunari and medieval Islamic people of color cultures, which, compared to white European cultures, were “more enlightened, had more technology.” He cringed and acknowledged that he could see the harm in his words, however.

[Analogue Dreams]

Can't believe he would write the fantasy Islamic coloured culture as a mind-wiping borg culture, you know, completely unlike the coloured culture it's based off of that gave three choices to anyone with different beliefs: pay jizya, convert, or be decapitated. An enlightened people with more technology they pillaged from the Byzantines and some others, like Levantines known for their alchemy and engineering that were ripe for the culturally enriching. Hey, and didn't you know ALGEBRA is muslim, that's why it has AL in it like AL-QAEDA, whipeppo would still be figuring out 2+2=4 if Muslims didn't invent al-gebra, just like CHEMISTRY is from AL-CHEMY. Even the Greeks who did it before Mohammed was born were actually Mohammedans.

[TKVNC]

Can't believe he would write the fantasy Islamic coloured culture as a mind-wiping borg culture, you know, completely unlike the coloured culture it's based off of that gave three choices to anyone with different beliefs: pay jizya, convert, or be decapitated. An enlightened people with more technology they pillaged from the Byzantines and some others, like Levantines known for their alchemy and engineering that were ripe for the culturally enriching. Hey, and didn't you know ALGEBRA is muslim, that's why it has AL in it like AL-QAEDA, whipeppo would still be figuring out 2+2=4 if Muslims didn't invent al-gebra, just like CHEMISTRY is from AL-CHEMY. Even the Greeks who did it before Mohammed was born were actually Mohammedans.

Best thing is, they weren't even more advanced than Western Europe.

They learnt how to make Cannon from the ******* Hungarians.

Hungary of all places.

[rusty_shackleford]

This is what our fountain of knowledge David Gaider had to say about qunari (the "journalist" is really something here!):

fwiw, David Gaider has repeatedly lied and thrown people under the bus when it suits him. Anything he says after the fact should be understood in this context.

[rusty_shackleford]

fwiw, David Gaider has repeatedly lied and thrown people under the bus when it suits him. Anything he says after the fact should be understood in this context.

e.g., here's me proving that gaider lied about how Duncan was supposed to be black:

Bioware devs claimed the reason there weren't any truly black people prior to Inquisition was because the renderer just couldn't display dark skin tones without making them look like a weird orange splotchy mess (which seems accurate enough if you try that in the character creation slider). The switch to Frostbite allowed them to realize their ambitions.

just like how they lied about everything else that was retconned(see: qunari), they're lying.





David Gaider himself wrote a comic that had Isabella depicted like this on the front of it:



DAO was made just prior to the great libtard brainrot, all the coincidences that happened to be changed are mostly just lies.

Digging some more into it, it's exactly as I thought. All the ******** about him being a mulatto is from some books published after Inquisition released.

…And it turns out to be a retcon that contradicts the codex entry from the game itself.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Duncan

His mother was from the Anderfels, his father from Tevinter, his childhood was spent in the Free Marches and Orlais.

was because the renderer just couldn't display dark skin tones without making them look like a weird orange splotchy mess

deboooooooooonked

from a mod on nexus that just replaces the skin texture file


Three posts addressing every part of those claims. Thoroughly, completely, irrefutably deboonked.

Gaider is a big, gay liar who says whatever he thinks will make people like him the most at the moment. Also backstabs his friends.

Do not take anything Gaider says after the fact as an actual statement of how it was at the time.

[fkirenicus]

fwiw, David Gaider has repeatedly lied and thrown people under the bus when it suits him. Anything he says after the fact should be understood in this context.

e.g., here's me proving that gaider lied about how Duncan was supposed to be black:

Bioware devs claimed the reason there weren't any truly black people prior to Inquisition was because the renderer just couldn't display dark skin tones without making them look like a weird orange splotchy mess (which seems accurate enough if you try that in the character creation slider). The switch to Frostbite allowed them to realize their ambitions.

just like how they lied about everything else that was retconned(see: qunari), they're lying.





David Gaider himself wrote a comic that had Isabella depicted like this on the front of it:



DAO was made just prior to the great libtard brainrot, all the coincidences that happened to be changed are mostly just lies.

Digging some more into it, it's exactly as I thought. All the ******** about him being a mulatto is from some books published after Inquisition released.

…And it turns out to be a retcon that contradicts the codex entry from the game itself.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Duncan

His mother was from the Anderfels, his father from Tevinter, his childhood was spent in the Free Marches and Orlais.

was because the renderer just couldn't display dark skin tones without making them look like a weird orange splotchy mess

deboooooooooonked

from a mod on nexus that just replaces the skin texture file


Three posts addressing every part of those claims. Thoroughly, completely, irrefutably deboonked.

Gaider is a big, gay liar who says whatever he thinks will make people like him the most at the moment. Also backstabs his friends.

Do not take anything Gaider says after the fact as an actual statement of how it was at the time.

I agree about ignoring stuff around and after DAI - I stand by my word that while Bioware's writers retained their sanity (one can argue they lost it about just after DAE) I consider it canon enough, just as I consider LOTR canon despite the fact there was something else before it that contradicts parts of what is said in LOTR. As you say, it is after DAI/DEI things really got wrecked. And now Bioware has managed to utterly and irrevocably destroy all they have worked on since around 2005. Quite the achievement.

[Rand]

fwiw, David Gaider has repeatedly lied and thrown people under the bus when it suits him. Anything he says after the fact should be understood in this context.

e.g., here's me proving that gaider lied about how Duncan was supposed to be black:

Bioware devs claimed the reason there weren't any truly black people prior to Inquisition was because the renderer just couldn't display dark skin tones without making them look like a weird orange splotchy mess (which seems accurate enough if you try that in the character creation slider). The switch to Frostbite allowed them to realize their ambitions.

just like how they lied about everything else that was retconned(see: qunari), they're lying.





David Gaider himself wrote a comic that had Isabella depicted like this on the front of it:



DAO was made just prior to the great libtard brainrot, all the coincidences that happened to be changed are mostly just lies.

Digging some more into it, it's exactly as I thought. All the ******** about him being a mulatto is from some books published after Inquisition released.

…And it turns out to be a retcon that contradicts the codex entry from the game itself.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Duncan

His mother was from the Anderfels, his father from Tevinter, his childhood was spent in the Free Marches and Orlais.

was because the renderer just couldn't display dark skin tones without making them look like a weird orange splotchy mess

deboooooooooonked

from a mod on nexus that just replaces the skin texture file


Three posts addressing every part of those claims. Thoroughly, completely, irrefutably deboonked.

Gaider is a big, gay liar who says whatever he thinks will make people like him the most at the moment. Also backstabs his friends.

Do not take anything Gaider says after the fact as an actual statement of how it was at the time.

No Gaider. the game is correct and you are a ****** who is writing retcon ******** that is wrong.

[logincrash]

Why would anyone take some guy with the last name Gaydar seriously?

[fkirenicus]

No Gaider. the game is correct and you are a ****** who is writing retcon ******** that is wrong.

To be honest, as Duncan is IP of Gaider's he really can do with him as he pleases. Gaider wrote both The Stolen Throne and The Calling, and was one the lead writers for the game/s. It is a bit silly to say he is "wrong" about his own fictional characters.
Of course, we can do what / choose which version of the lore we want to use in our (DA TTRPG) games, even so.

[PixiGreen]

Do not take anything Gaider says after the fact as an actual statement of how it was at the time.

Oh, I can add to this! Old conversation from Tumbrl in 2015:

Anonymous asked:
Regarding romances with companions in Dragon Age 2, was it honestly your intent to make everybody bisexual?

dgaider-deactivated20150130 answered:

We wrote them as bisexual, yes, and that was our intention from the outset of DA2. Some of the characters (such as Merrill) don’t discuss their sexuality, and thus it’s left ambiguous and open to interpretation by the player… but keep in mind that interpretation doesn’t change their sexuality. Just because you’re romancing Merrill with a male PC, for instance, doesn’t mean she’s straight, it just means you’re not exposed to another side of her character in that playthrough.

afaerassumption:

Could you stop this? We aren’t the idiots you’re looking for. We all played and heard the conversations. Isabela is Bi, Fenris could be; everyone else has their sexuality on a toggle. Merrill, if not romanced by f!Hawke will mention that she can’t even imagine lesbian sex. Anders will only allude to any attraction to men unless you play m!Hawke.

Making the characters playersexual, not bisexual, was the decision you made; and while slightly disrespectful of a choice it’s the one you made. Own it. We’ve all seen the game, we all know this claim is rather bs.

Stop trying to claim it was something else this late after; it just makes it seem like you have no respect for your fans

dgaider:

I’m telling you what we intended when we wrote the characters. The writers discussed it, and while the characters did indeed react to PC’s differently (Anders did not mention Karl to a female PC, for instance, because Jennifer believed it wasn’t something a guy would do—not because he was straight in that playthrough) that did not change what they were or how we thought about them as we were writing them.

If you feel you know better, then by all means continue to do so. It does, however, seem rather disrespectful on your part even while you claim the reverse.


miricagale:

As much as I love and respect DG, he is kind of forgetful sometimes. Like in this case, for example. Here:

2011: http://thehathorlegacy.com/bioware-writer-inclusivity/

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one.

Sep 2012: http://forum.bioware.com/topic/401658-w ... ry12540939

1) The companions weren’t all bisexual in DA2. Two of them were. You being able to romance whoever you liked is not the same thing, outside of the idea that in some other reality you’re aware of the possibility that they might romance someone of a different gender.

http://forum.bioware.com/topic/402707-p ... ry12584296

Once again— the romances are *not* “all bisexual”. While some people don’t like subjective sexuality, being aware of the fact some of your love interests could romance someone of the same gender in another game takes a back seat to fairness and fun gameplay.

March 2013 : http://forum.bioware.com/topic/462603-b ... ry14598622

All the romances in DA2 are available to anyone. If you’re desperate to slap a label onto their sexuality, that’s your issue. It doesn’t affect how they’re written, and doesn’t affect how the writers think about them.

[fkirenicus]

Do not take anything Gaider says after the fact as an actual statement of how it was at the time.

Oh, I can add to this! Old conversation from Tumbrl in 2015: (...)

Seriously, one might ask if there was a collective mental breakdown among the writers of Bioware around DAI/DEI.