What could have worked: The "+RPG" Thread (RTS + RPG, RTS + FPS + RPG, and the rest)

[NotAI]

(1) RTS + RPG ("Spellforce et al") = Why did it not take off? What was missing? If anything?

Let's also not forget:

(2) RTS + FPS ("Battlezone et al") = Why did it not take off? What was missing? If anything?

But this obviously would have done well if it had RPG "elements" and achievements. Star Wars Battlefront did pretty well until EA probably ****** up the next game in the series as usual IMO.

But back to (1):

I remember playing Spellforce and it was pretty good, except for the fact that it was too slow, maybe that was it.

Competitive games that were simpler and faster paced at the RTS genre sure but what is missing in RTS + RPG that could not have worked? Had anyone bothered with a big title for that.

[cleansingcarnage]

RTS + RPG just morphed into and got subsumed by MOBA games. RTS + FPS is something that has been tried now and then, but it's tough to pull off and doesn't work well for multiplayer. Big AAA studios haven't tried doing anything like that because they can just release COD over and over and make money off it.

[Xenich]

Action and RPG conflict with each other often and usually action ends up dominating the RPG aspect of play resulting in more... power up style use rather than a statistical strategic concept of play.

It is why I am not a huge fan if I have the choice of action oriented RPGs. EQ is as far as I usually like to go with that hybrid as while the player has some control over play with some key abilities and timing as well as some movement influence, the rounds and statistical data are what establish success and failure. In action games, so much attention gets put to action that the player circumvents a lot of that play making it a loose RPG.

[TKVNC]

M&B Warband is basically an RTS RPG, it never got a big following tho, not really

[Acrux]

The Fall From Heaven 2 mod for Civ4, and all those based on it, are 4x RPGs.

Majesty has RTS and RPG aspects.

[rusty_shackleford]

RTS + RPG just morphed into and got subsumed by MOBA games.

isn't this the spellforce games?

[cleansingcarnage]

RTS + RPG just morphed into and got subsumed by MOBA games.

isn't this the spellforce games?

That's the example given by the OP, I've never played them though.

[Kowe]

Eh, RPG + RTS did succeed with Warcraft 3. It was initially developed as RPG before it got changed to RTS. It can be argued that it is rather RPG-lite with just having the Hero Units stand out as RPG feature but it is a very influential one in the game.

RPG + Deckbuilder is a hybrid genre with potential and was done well with Baten Kaitos. Can't tell about the quality of Lost Kingdom I & II and Yu-Gi-Oh! The Duelists of the Roses, but they fall under the same category. Turn-based RPGs and Deckbuilders do mesh well, simply because they can just substitute the standard menu with a deck while adding some RNG. Can't really tell why it didn't take off.

[asf]

wat if we had liek strategy but then add some rpg and add racing sim and add the sims and add achievements and add football manager, y no work?

[NotAI]

BTW...

RTS + Deckbuilder?

Does that exist yet?

I can see RTS + RPG + Deckbuilder because that seems actually pretty easy to build.

3 Houses raise your Pop Cap for # of Heroes is only a few cards in a couple piles.

[Oyster Sauce]

BTW...

RTS + Deckbuilder?

Does that exist yet?

I can see RTS + RPG + Deckbuilder because that seems actually pretty easy to build.

3 Houses raise your Pop Cap for # of Heroes is only a few cards in a couple piles.

AoE 3

[Acrux]

RTS + Deckbuilder?

Does that exist yet?

Apparently

https://tensiongames.itch.io/tuggowar

[rusty_shackleford]

RPG + actually an RPG is really rare, you only got a handful of these games like Fallout, ATOM RPG, etc.,

[Cipher]

Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders and Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes are both a blend of action RPG and RTS with a killer soundtrack.

Originally came out for the OG Xbox, they have been finally ported to PC via Steam.

Worth every penny.







Not perfect by all means and not the best games ever, but a lot of fun to be had. And again, the soundtrack is a bona fide BANGER!

[rusty_shackleford]

What genre isn't improved by being an RPG?

[Statesman]

What genre isn't improved by being an RPG?

Simulations and Fighting Games.

[rusty_shackleford]

What genre isn't improved by being an RPG?

Simulations and Fighting Games.

isn't simulation+rpg just kenshi?

[Statesman]

What genre isn't improved by being an RPG?

Simulations and Fighting Games.

isn't simulation+rpg just kenshi?

I'd consider Kenshi an RPG with simulation elements. Simulation games usually have smaller scopes and mimic real life/activities a lot more. Yet I could also see someone arguing that the state of current tech+large scope chosen for Kenshi forced the (single) dev to gamify a lot of systems to allow a playable single-player experience.

[WhiteShark]

What genre isn't improved by being an RPG?

Simulations

RPGs have simulations as their basis. I'm not German, so I don't find pure simulations entertaining.

[Statesman]

What genre isn't improved by being an RPG?

Simulations

RPGs have simulations as their basis. I'm not German, so I don't find pure simulations entertaining.

To be fair, all games (not just videogames) are based on simulations, but I can't really fathom Pure Simulations to be entertaining, outside futuristic tech or full motion VR getups (while the novelty lasts, anyway).

[WhiteShark]

To be fair, all games (not just videogames) are based on simulations

What does poker simulate?

[DDC]

Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders and Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes are both a blend of action RPG and RTS with a killer soundtrack.

Originally came out for the OG Xbox, they have been finally ported to PC via Steam.

Worth every penny.







Not perfect by all means and not the best games ever, but a lot of fun to be had. And again, the soundtrack is a bona fide BANGER!

Not the best games ever? They were probably in the top 5 Xbox exclusives. Very advanced for their time, weighty feel to the combat, interface and controls worked amazingly considering the complexity of the games and fitting that to an xbox controller. Ordering the units around was seamless. And then there is the voice acting for the various units. And the memes. Not the best games ever? Only someone with weak delts would say that. Not rose-colored glasses either. I bought them on steam and they are still bangers. Very sad how the series got ran into the ground with spinoff games and didn't get a true next-gen sequel.

[DDC]

RTS + Deckbuilder?

Does that exist yet?

Apparently

https://tensiongames.itch.io/tuggowar

Also Golem Gates. Hadean Tactics and Overdungeon might qualify to a limited extent but are less than a full-blown RTS.

[DDC]

RTS + RPG just morphed into and got subsumed by MOBA games.

isn't this the spellforce games?

Spellforce is nothing like a MOBA. They play more like a very, very simplified version of a CRPG like Divinity where you go around the maps killing creeps, finding treasure, doing quests, etc and then RTS battles will break out in the middle of that. I've played Spellforce 2, 3 and all their expansions and I think they're excellent. They would not be top-tier judging the RTS elements against the elite dedicated RTS games, or the RPG gameplay against the best RPGs, but the combo is a lot of fun.

[Cipher]

Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders and Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes are both a blend of action RPG and RTS with a killer soundtrack.

Originally came out for the OG Xbox, they have been finally ported to PC via Steam.

Worth every penny.







Not perfect by all means and not the best games ever, but a lot of fun to be had. And again, the soundtrack is a bona fide BANGER!

Not the best games ever? They were probably in the top 5 Xbox exclusives. Very advanced for their time, weighty feel to the combat, interface and controls worked amazingly considering the complexity of the games and fitting that to an xbox controller. Ordering the units around was seamless. And then there is the voice acting for the various units. And the memes. Not the best games ever? Only someone with weak delts would say that. Not rose-colored glasses either. I bought them on steam and they are still bangers. Very sad how the series got ran into the ground with spinoff games and didn't get a true next-gen sequel.

They are not perfect, we have to be honest about that. But, I agree, they are excellent and in fact, that's why I posted a recommendation for them. Just as fun as back in the day, absolutely killer soundtrack, fair graphics for the time in the sense of all the units and chaos moving on screen at the same time without loading screens mid-mission. Challenging but fair and just a solid ride all around. But, the hack and slash really fade out when you start to advance to the late game and cavalry is ultra OP due to the almost infinite SP generation.

As I said, no the best ever, but a lot of fun to be had and most definitely worth a buy and a playthrough. Additionally, I agree, it is sad that the follow up was the pure hack and slash Circle of Doom and then KUF II I think became a korean MMO or something.

But the duology still slaps to this day.

[Cipher]

Simulations

RPGs have simulations as their basis. I'm not German, so I don't find pure simulations entertaining.

To be fair, all games (not just videogames) are based on simulations, but I can't really fathom Pure Simulations to be entertaining, outside futuristic tech or full motion VR getups (while the novelty lasts, anyway).

American Truck Simulator is exactly what it says on the tin and it is highly praised and enjoyed by a lot of people, to the tune of getting spin-offs and such. Not my jam but pure simulators exist for a reason. If there was no market for them, they wouldn't exist.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I quite enjoyed playing Mount & Blade and ARMA's singleplayer campaign. You get to be a commander surrounded by lots of guys and traversing a large map and with party management and pre-battle planning, but also the visceral feel of being down in the trenches in combat and having to make on the fly decisions. And your men is pretty much your HP, and losing men makes more sense and feels worse than simply getting hit by a monster and losing 3 out of 18 HP. I thought ARMA was pretty novel in how each mission you switched PoVs between the infantry squad, the tank commander, and the special forces saboteurs behind enemy lines. I remember getting frustrated by that one infantry level where you have to load your guys up into trucks and drive to a destination and then your drivers get sniped out of nowhere and you can't find them.

Valkyria Chronicles 1 & 4 combined SRPG with 3rd person shooter, and was made by the same devs behind Sakura Wars V so it has some well designed levels. Unlike ARMA which is tries to be a super realistic simulation where your guys get sniped from offscreen and you have to spend 3 hours reloading until you find them, in VC while everyone uses guns they are "relatively" closed ranged (compared to realistic distances) so you can see everyone on screen and there isn't frustration.

[NotAI]

Speaking of SIM:

I'm tempted to buy one of the 256 (2x128) core servers used. The price is down from $12K to like $3-5K. Then make a self-playing RPG with ~250 characters each running on their own core. So let the decision AI straight up waste a lot more compute on making good decisions and cosmetic things for each role. Pretty sure it's possible to give each character enough to do to get each core to 25-50% all the time.

SIM + RPG = RPG^RPG? RPG on steroids or just boring?

Edit. SIM but not boring AF (with the 3-5 historical exceptions) as usual? What usually makes SIM as a genre extremely boring and never succeed, no matter how high fantasy?

You watch then pick a character to take over...? Then if that character dies, permadeath, pick another character, like in the story of The Nomad Soul but actually not scripted.

Edit. Well, the question is what should they be doing, beyond what's already in something like Dwarf Fortress. That seems to actually be implemented pretty simply, based on the guy's paper, just a bunch of lists that get randomly filled and conflict. What if that stuff wasn't just list-based "at a high level"?

[Statesman]

To be fair, all games (not just videogames) are based on simulations

What does poker simulate?

(Royal) court politics.

RPGs have simulations as their basis. I'm not German, so I don't find pure simulations entertaining.

To be fair, all games (not just videogames) are based on simulations, but I can't really fathom Pure Simulations to be entertaining, outside futuristic tech or full motion VR getups (while the novelty lasts, anyway).

American Truck Simulator is exactly what it says on the tin and it is highly praised and enjoyed by a lot of people, to the tune of getting spin-offs and such. Not my jam but pure simulators exist for a reason. If there was no market for them, they wouldn't exist.

I mostly meant entertaining to me. Sure, they obviously cater to a certain market, but at most I could see them being a nice passive experience to zoom out/release some of the workday stress (so to speak) rather than a properly stimulating/active experience (which is what I usually look for in videogames).

[WhiteShark]

To be fair, all games (not just videogames) are based on simulations

What does poker simulate?

(Royal) court politics.

That's a stretch. It's important to distinguish between a game's being themed after something and simulating that thing. An illustrative example is the difference between Chess and Kriegspiel: Chess is themed after medieval warfare but bears very little resemblance to it otherwise, whereas Kriegspiel was designed to correlate to real warfare to such a degree that its players could take from it useful lessons on military strategy.