Savescumming, respeccing, and cheating in RPGs

[Xenich]

Why not a starting game setup? <Turn off save anywhere> or <select save style>

Because the game is designed around one or the other.

So if it is designed around one, why are we concerned about people who play it with the other?

[ArcaneLurker]

Violating the game in ways the devs never imagined.
*Presses F5*
*Presses F6*

Literally the same as opening pornhub and gooning for 10 hours.

Bro doesn't even keep 20 tabs of porn open while he's spamming the F6 every time a dice roll fails. Get on my goon-level.

[rusty_shackleford]

Why not a starting game setup? <Turn off save anywhere> or <select save style>

Because the game is designed around one or the other.

So if it is designed around one, why are we concerned about people who play it with the other?

Because you're playing it wrong and they're designing games around you playing it wrong.
This is how you end up with Veilguard, btw.

[The_Mask]

Violating the game in ways the devs never imagined.
*Presses F5*
*Presses F6*

I keep quick load on F9 because I've made mistakes before.

[ArcaneLurker]

Violating the game in ways the devs never imagined.
*Presses F5*
*Presses F6*

I keep quick load on F9 because I've made mistakes before.

Ah, the patricians choice. A true gooner.

[Nooneatall]

Because the game is designed around one or the other.

So if it is designed around one, why are we concerned about people who play it with the other?

Because you're playing it wrong and they're designing games around you playing it wrong.
This is how you end up with Veilguard, btw.

I can't believe us ****** save scummers have been ******* up games since Morrowind! All those times I save scummed in the 90s finally broke the industry in the 00s and then everything was save scum all the time. Sorry I let us all down @rusty_shackleford

It was September 1998. I had just got pokemon Blue and I was playing it on my super gameboy because my Mom broke the real gameboy playing Tetris. Little did I know what a big influence i would have on the gaming world when instead of blacking out to trainers I would just restart the game and go back to my last save. Or if I was in Mount Moon and got lost I just reloaded my last save. I really ****** things up and I should be punished.

[Xenich]

Because the game is designed around one or the other.

So if it is designed around one, why are we concerned about people who play it with the other?

Because you're playing it wrong and they're designing games around you playing it wrong.
This is how you end up with Veilguard, btw.

I get that, but what I am saying.. design the game as you suggest and don't worry about the other.

How people play it outside of that design, well... I really don't care.

[rusty_shackleford]

I can't believe us ****** save scummers have been ******* up games since Morrowind!

…
It's even made fun of in-universe in Morrowind as a fourth-wall breaking joke.

Multiple times, btw. Vivec does it at least once I can remember, Where were you when the Dragon Broke? etc.,

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

So if it is designed around one, why are we concerned about people who play it with the other?

Because you're playing it wrong and they're designing games around you playing it wrong.
This is how you end up with Veilguard, btw.

I get that, but what I am saying.. design the game as you suggest and don't worry about the other.

How people play it outside of that design, well... I really don't care.

If save scumming is such a frequent habit for people then issue is developer not the player.

It’s a backwards way of thinking that’s it’s fault of the player for choosing the path that’s less frustrating.

[Element]

All the complaints about saves being unfair in Dork Souls led to saves right outside the boss arena, but with the bosses becoming ******* monkeys that fly, fire off nuclear aoe attacks and have hitboxes that cover a dozen acres with each attack. There's plenty of games that had either collectable save items, limited quick saves or just checkpoints, and they work great when they are implemented with thought put into them. They are another game mechanic that you have to master.

Iron man run, uninstall after death is a strawman.

[rusty_shackleford]

If save scumming is such a frequent habit for people then issue is developer not the player.

It’s a backwards way of thinking that’s it’s fault of the player for choosing the path that’s less frustrating.

I agree that developers shouldn't give players such readily available access to cheats.

[rusty_shackleford]

All the complaints about saves being unfair in Dork Souls led to saves right outside the boss arena

This is confusing the respawn mechanic with the save mechanic, no?
Dork souls has a rolling save system that continuously updates the save.

A game with a similar respawn mechanic but without a rolling save is planescape torment

[Oyster Sauce]

Hmm I think I'll play this open world rpg and join the assassin's guild
*10 hours later*
"You said something slightly rude to the janitor on your way here, you're banned for life."
QUEST FAILED: joining the assassin's guild

Whoa... truly a living, breathing world. My personal story has been enriched in ways I never thought possible. I'm grateful for this experience and will gladly be a **** for the next 50 hours of playtime instead of loading a save and getting to do the fun questline I started the game for and built my entire character around.

[Nooneatall]

All the complaints about saves being unfair in Dork Souls led to saves right outside the boss arena, but with the bosses becoming ******* monkeys that fly, fire off nuclear aoe attacks and have hitboxes that cover a dozen acres with each attack. There's plenty of games that had either collectable save items, limited quick saves or just checkpoints, and they work great when they are implemented with thought put into them. They are another game mechanic that you have to master.

Iron man run, uninstall after death is a strawman.

I was going to make an effort post but I think I'm just getting baited and falling for the bait at this point. I'll close my arguments by saying anyone who is getting bent out of shape over game difficulty has no life, is extremely autistic, and probably is closeted *****.

[Xenich]

Because you're playing it wrong and they're designing games around you playing it wrong.
This is how you end up with Veilguard, btw.

I get that, but what I am saying.. design the game as you suggest and don't worry about the other.

How people play it outside of that design, well... I really don't care.

If save scumming is such a frequent habit for people then issue is developer not the player.

It’s a backwards way of thinking that’s it’s fault of the player for choosing the path that’s less frustrating.

Well, I wouldn't say that is always the case. @rusty_shackleford has a good point. People do try to pick the most optimal choice in play on everything, always to be the winner of every encounter, dialogue, etc... to find everything, etc... the concept of missing out or not getting an ideal reward/solution is something modern gamers have come to despise and this has honestly led to a path of development which has created games that are bland, lacking choice, without consequence, etc... and save anywhere enables that.

Why would you waste a lot of development time on creating lesser options when players will simply back out and choose the most optimal?

So I understand his point, and I do see some problems with the save systems in that respect.

I like the Wizardry approach in some games where the saves were relegated to returning to camp, town, etc... as then the player can control their progress, but... can't have everything unless they want to become mired in "rubber band" exploring where they constantly rush back to save every few minutes. Most people will just accept the negative and move on in situations like that and they have some control on how much content they go through with risk, so after a great score, or hard fought battle, they can return back to camp/town to save their progress.

[rusty_shackleford]

has no life, is extremely autistic, and probably is closeted *****.

the last one is completely untrue with no basis in fact

[rusty_shackleford]

zoomers seem to be completely dumbfounded by the idea of actually picking a choice and dealing with the consequences of it

[Faceless_Sentinel]

zoomers seem to be completely dumbfounded by the idea of actually picking a choice and dealing with the consequences of it

Boomers seem completely dumbfounded by the idea of choice must have consequences to be important and mean something.

[rusty_shackleford]

zoomers seem to be completely dumbfounded by the idea of actually picking a choice and dealing with the consequences of it

Boomers seem completely dumbfounded by the idea of choice must have consequences to be important and mean something.

The consequence is my character's journey :weeb:

[Faceless_Sentinel]

zoomers seem to be completely dumbfounded by the idea of actually picking a choice and dealing with the consequences of it

Boomers seem completely dumbfounded by the idea of choice must have consequences to be important and mean something.

The consequence is my character's journey :weeb:

Journey, that stsy the same no matter what you choose? Great journey.

[rusty_shackleford]

Boomers seem completely dumbfounded by the idea of choice must have consequences to be important and mean something.

The consequence is my character's journey :weeb:

Journey, that stsy the same no matter what you choose? Great journey.

Journey flow like water through river, winding and twisting, never go back. :weeb:

[Oyster Sauce]

Whoa, I just got caught committing a murder so I had to kill some guards who cornered me as I tried to escape. I'm going to take ol' Rusty's advice and see how this plays out. The results might surprise me!

*gets fine worth tens of thousands of gold that essentially just makes the game unplayable for several hours unless you know gold making exploits (cheating) and would make any regular player quit on the spot if they couldn't reload*

Finally... all that honest labor chopping wood for the mill has paid off. Let's take care of this bounty and see if the populace can ever truly forgive me for me heinous crimes...

*NPC disposition shoots up from -100 to 0, it's never mentioned again, family members of the person they know you murdered are happy to see you once more*

Astonishing, Miyamoto-san. "Wii would like to play" indeed!

[rusty_shackleford]

Whoa, I just got caught committing a murder so I had to kill some guards who cornered me as I tried to escape. I'm going to take ol' Rusty's advice and see how this plays out. The results might surprise me!

*gets fine worth tens of thousands of gold that essentially just makes the game unplayable for several hours unless you know gold making exploits (cheating) and would make any regular player quit on the spot if they couldn't reload*

Finally... all that honest labor chopping wood for the mill has paid off. Let's take care of this bounty and see if the populace can ever truly forgive me for me heinous crimes...

*NPC disposition shoots up from -100 to 0, it's never mentioned again, family members of the person they know you murdered are happy to see you once more*

Astonishing, Miyamoto-san. "Wii would like to play" indeed!

Don't commit murders

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Whoa, I just got caught committing a murder so I had to kill some guards who cornered me as I tried to escape. I'm going to take ol' Rusty's advice and see how this plays out. The results might surprise me!

*gets fine worth tens of thousands of gold that essentially just makes the game unplayable for several hours unless you know gold making exploits (cheating) and would make any regular player quit on the spot if they couldn't reload*

Finally... all that honest labor chopping wood for the mill has paid off. Let's take care of this bounty and see if the populace can ever truly forgive me for me heinous crimes...

*NPC disposition shoots up from -100 to 0, it's never mentioned again, family members of the person they know you murdered are happy to see you once more*

Astonishing, Miyamoto-san. "Wii would like to play" indeed!

Don't commit murders

Don't play computer games.

[rusty_shackleford]

Whoa, I just got caught committing a murder so I had to kill some guards who cornered me as I tried to escape. I'm going to take ol' Rusty's advice and see how this plays out. The results might surprise me!

*gets fine worth tens of thousands of gold that essentially just makes the game unplayable for several hours unless you know gold making exploits (cheating) and would make any regular player quit on the spot if they couldn't reload*

Finally... all that honest labor chopping wood for the mill has paid off. Let's take care of this bounty and see if the populace can ever truly forgive me for me heinous crimes...

*NPC disposition shoots up from -100 to 0, it's never mentioned again, family members of the person they know you murdered are happy to see you once more*

Astonishing, Miyamoto-san. "Wii would like to play" indeed!

Don't commit murders

Don't play computer games.

But I have fun when I play games, yet you guys complain a lot

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Don't commit murders

Don't play computer games.

But I have fun when I play games, yet you guys complain a lot

You don't having fun.

[ArcaneLurker]

zoomers seem to be completely dumbfounded by the idea of actually picking a choice and dealing with the consequences of it

Boomers seem completely dumbfounded by the idea of choice must have consequences to be important and mean something.

IKR, just look at elections.

[Rand]

I have mentioned this before, but I hated D:OS because of the change they did to "save the game from save scumming" the chests. Their implementation for loot was absolutely ******** and ruined the game (RNG garbage generated loot is atrocious). The game should have been designed with static loot, hand placed and tailored to the encounters, areas, etc... (similar to BG2), but tantrum throwing HOA ******* were worried about people rerolling the chest to get something even remotely relevant to their build (an actual reward for the tough encounter) and this was created due to the same ******* demanding "RNG loot" because "muh replability". They created the problem, then turned around and whined about people rolling a few times to get something useable.

Can you explain this? What did they do to the chests?

[rusty_shackleford]

The solution to savescumming isn't to modify other mechanics, it's to get rid of savescumming. Anything else is a bandaid.

[Rand]

That argument doesn't resonate with me anyway, as game designers are all - to a man - mental midgets and extremely degenerate.

Even Sid Meier?!?