Savescumming, respeccing, and cheating in RPGs

[rusty_shackleford]

Well if there not going to even attempt to address that issue then save scumming will be prevalent issue.

He's telling you to be okay with missing some content. Stop playing games like you have to 100% everything and play them more like simulations. You might miss things - and that's okay.

A very good point however that’s just not how I play RPG’s typically.

well, change.

[Oyster Sauce]

► DAO

Hope you can pick out the one (1) dialogue option here that fills him with resolve and convinces him to become a warm, kind, and friendly king. Hint: It's one of the 4 lines that convey the exact same thing. Miss it? Well, you'll have a 1 in 3 chance the next 90 hour playthrough you commit to!

[rusty_shackleford]

► DAO

Hope you can pick out the one (1) dialogue option here that fills him with resolve and convinces him to become a warm, kind, and friendly king. Hint: It's one of the 4 lines that convey the exact same thing. Miss it? Well, you'll have a 1 in 3 chance the next 90 hour playthrough you commit to!

► Show Spoiler

That sucks, move on. People aren't clay for you to shape.

[Oyster Sauce]

► DAO

Hope you can pick out the one (1) dialogue option here that fills him with resolve and convinces him to become a warm, kind, and friendly king. Hint: It's one of the 4 lines that convey the exact same thing. Miss it? Well, you'll have a 1 in 3 chance the next 90 hour playthrough you commit to!

► Show Spoiler

That sucks, move on. People aren't clay for you to shape.

But I'd have less fun if I got the outcome I didn't want, and more fun if I got the outcome I did want. Why would I want to enjoy the game less? Also, untrue! This one singular dialogue choice does, in fact, shape him like clay.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

He's telling you to be okay with missing some content. Stop playing games like you have to 100% everything and play them more like simulations. You might miss things - and that's okay.

A very good point however that’s just not how I play RPG’s typically.

well, change.

You playing computer games wrong!

You entertain yourself the wrong!

You're enjoying it wrong!

You having fun wrong!

Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

[rusty_shackleford]

But I'd have less fun if I got the outcome I didn't want, and more fun if I got the outcome I did want. Why would I want to enjoy the game less?

Stop reading a guide.

You playing computer games wrong! You entertain yourself the wrong! You're enjoying it wrong! You having fun wrong! Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

Yes.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

You playing computer games wrong! You entertain yourself the wrong! You're enjoying it wrong! You having fun wrong! Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

Yes.

Sorry, @text_on_the_screen, you can't make me play games your way and you do awful job in convincing that your way is any good.

[rusty_shackleford]

You playing computer games wrong! You entertain yourself the wrong! You're enjoying it wrong! You having fun wrong! Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

Yes.

Sorry, @text_on_the_screen, you can't make me play games your way and you do awful job in convincing that your way is any good.

I can tell you that you're playing them wrong and reducing how much you enjoy them. Whether you decide to act on this information is up to you.

[7Trickster]

That sucks. Move on.

Well if there not going to even attempt to address that issue then save scumming will be prevalent issue.

He's telling you to be okay with missing some content. Stop playing games like you have to 100% everything and play them more like simulations. You might miss things - and that's okay.

Nowadays I kill Karlach everytime : the simps will say I lose a ton of content... which is like 3 cutscenes about a metal from Hell and 1 about Gortash.

I say I gain a peace of mind without an unimmersive Mary-Sue, a beautiful head to play ball with Scratch, a nice robe for my Shart monk and Wyll won't look like a horny mana-addict ****.

But to the point : I think it's ok to save scum, not just because you want to experience the most on a first playthrough (who knows if you'll do a second), but because you never know when a bug might hit you. I'd rather save time than waste time.

Also, I saw thr game peaked at 80-89k, hopefully it stays there. **** this game and devs (the one who held hostage the non-mentally ill devs at least).

[Acrux]

A very good point however that’s just not how I play RPG’s typically.

well, change.

You playing computer games wrong!

You entertain yourself the wrong!

You're enjoying it wrong!

You having fun wrong!

Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

Yes.

[Rand]

Well if there not going to even attempt to address that issue then save scumming will be prevalent issue.

He's telling you to be okay with missing some content. Stop playing games like you have to 100% everything and play them more like simulations. You might miss things - and that's okay.

Nowadays I kill Karlach everytime : the simps will say I lose a ton of content... which is like 3 cutscenes about a metal from Hell and 1 about Gortash.

I say I gain a peace of mind without an unimmersive Mary-Sue, a beautiful head to play ball with Scratch, a nice robe for my Shart monk and Wyll won't look like a horny mana-addict ****.

But to the point : I think it's ok to save scum, not just because you want to experience the most on a first playthrough (who knows if you'll do a second), but because you never know when a bug might hit you. I'd rather save time than waste time.

Also, I saw thr game peaked at 80-89k, hopefully it stays there. **** this game and devs (the one who held hostage the non-mentally ill devs at least).

I'm already stiffed a slot in my party by the ****** devs.
I want one of each: a cleric (Shadowheart) a thief (Astarion) a mage (Gale) and a fighter (Lae'zel) but they only give three slots. (I use the extra slot mod for the fourth when I play.)
I don't have an extra slot for a big red barbarian devil-*****.
I play a classic anti-devil paladin, so off with her head!

[Faceless_Sentinel]

well, change.

You playing computer games wrong!

You entertain yourself the wrong!

You're enjoying it wrong!

You having fun wrong!

Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

Yes.

Same thing that I said to the Rusty. I interested to see what your arguments in defense of this position.

[Cipher]

Well if there not going to even attempt to address that issue then save scumming will be prevalent issue.

He's telling you to be okay with missing some content. Stop playing games like you have to 100% everything and play them more like simulations. You might miss things - and that's okay.

Nowadays I kill Karlach everytime : the simps will say I lose a ton of content... which is like 3 cutscenes about a metal from Hell and 1 about Gortash.

I say I gain a peace of mind without an unimmersive Mary-Sue, a beautiful head to play ball with Scratch, a nice robe for my Shart monk and Wyll won't look like a horny mana-addict ****.

But to the point : I think it's ok to save scum, not just because you want to experience the most on a first playthrough (who knows if you'll do a second), but because you never know when a bug might hit you. I'd rather save time than waste time.

Also, I saw thr game peaked at 80-89k, hopefully it stays there. **** this game and devs (the one who held hostage the non-mentally ill devs at least).

I did this but with Astarion. As soon as he tried to suck my character's blood in the middle of the night. Everyone told me I missed out on the best companion character, the best written character in the entire game and the most emotional and best written questline. I don't care. My character is a Paladin and Astarion outed himself as an undead monstrosity and filthy bloodsuckers get the stake, as Lathander intended.

[TKVNC]

Nowadays I kill Karlach everytime : the simps will say I lose a ton of content... which is like 3 cutscenes about a metal from Hell and 1 about Gortash.

The biggest RPG-pill is realising you actually don't have to 100% a game, and that you can actually... Roleplay as your character; making choices and decisions your character would make, undriven by meta-knowledge.

[PixiGreen]

Hard disagree. Any game with a customizable appearance eventually adds the ability to change it and for a good reason

It’s called manual saves . If you mess up a character design that you feel the need to change it reload a previous save state.

What? How does reloading would change appearance of your character? You can start from scratch, yes, but considering the endless prologues many games like where you can not stop, starting from the beginning again and again until you get that perfect shade of color for the hair is getting very tiresome very fast.

- it's a fluff that does not affect gameplay in any way but allows for correcting mistakes during initial customization. Lighting on the character-generating screen is never the same as in the game.

I’m not talking about slight differences in appearances like a hair syle or facial hair. I’m taking about changing your skin colour, voice, bone structure, height and other noticeable differences. Which absolutely is a big deal for narrative reasons. People take slight chances in you simply getting a haircut now imagine talking to some one has average white dude and then five minutes later you talk to them as 7 feet black man.

This is same logic as just make everyone pansexual because it gives more options and doesn’t effect gameplay even though it often clashes with the lore and world building of a setting.

There is a huge difference! The companion's sexuality is part of the game, the narrative - they can talk about it, express it, tell stories about it. "Playersexual" removes that possibility and keeps the game cheaper by cutting the number of dialogues while also keeping the crowd "but I want to romance this one!!!" off the devs' backs. It's not for the player's convenience.

But the appearance of the main protagonist never comes into play (name one game where it does?). Narratively, it does not affect the game. At best, race can be mentioned. It's yours and only your decision what to do about it.

Same with respec. If there are builds in the game, there should be ability to change it. Most RPGs have it from the start, others fixed with mods.

It not a fixed but a deliberate design choice. As much I **** on Owlcat I greatly appreciate from them limiting respec options.

First mod (after "all naked party", of course) that comes out is respec for the games that do not allow it. For Owlgames "true respec" also exist. THough, afaik, in WotR you are not limited in any way?

[PixiGreen]

It’s called manual saves . If you mess up a character design that you feel the need to change it reload a previous save state.

People need to learn to accept what they got and go on. Your game doesn't need to be a series of perfects, just take what you get and go on with it.
I rarely ever reload a game outside of when I get a gameover or encounter a bug now. Got an outcome you didn't like? Too bad, suck it up and move on.


There's a strong aversion to letting go, and people need to learn it now rather than later.

It's a different playstyle and often depends on the game design. In Tides of Numenera your "fails" can lead to a more interesting narration or outcome. It's not a failure per se, it's a different outcome, different path. But in many games, a bad roll is a punishable failure with negative consequences for something you could not control. Considering most gamers go through an RPG once, no wonder they want to see the best (the "right") outcome during that single run.

Different styles of gaming.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

What? How does reloading would change appearance of your character? You can start from scratch, yes, but considering the endless prologues many games like where you can not stop, starting from the beginning again and again until you get that perfect shade of color for the hair is getting very tiresome very fast.

As I said previously making slight changes in appearances like, hair colour, hair style is find because that in the whelm of believability.

There is a huge difference! The companion's sexuality is part of the game, the narrative - they can talk about it, express it, tell stories about it. "Playersexual" removes that possibility and keeps the game cheaper by cutting the number of dialogues while also keeping the crowd "but I want to romance this one!!!" off the devs' backs. It's not for the player's convenience.

But the appearance of the main protagonist never comes into play (name one game where it does?). Narratively, it does not affect the game. At best, race can be mentioned. It's yours and only your decision what to do about it.

Unless the game makes justifications for such changes in race, height ,sex and complete face changes then it shouldn’t be there in keeping things consistent in game World/narrative . I can have suspicion of disbelieve for a lot of things but I’m getting annoyed that developers forgo what’s possible or making certain cosmetic design decisions that has massive implications for the narrative/ story because players are slightly inconvenient of not have those options.

First mod (after "all naked party", of course) that comes out is respec for the games that do not allow it. For Owlgames "true respec" also exist. THough, afaik, in WotR you are not limited in any way?

True respec isn’t possible in Owlcat games with Toybox mods. For the MC you can do it mostly however certain decisions are permanent and character customization in appearance is locked off when finished making your character.

Companions are more restrictive because Owlcat has made it known they want to keep there class consistent with there character. ( Typically able to respec only to level 5 or I believe 10 in certain cases)

I do understand what your getting out but game dev should make more of effort to make that sort of functionality fit in the game and have tangible consequences if being used.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

It’s called manual saves . If you mess up a character design that you feel the need to change it reload a previous save state.

People need to learn to accept what they got and go on. Your game doesn't need to be a series of perfects, just take what you get and go on with it.
I rarely ever reload a game outside of when I get a gameover or encounter a bug now. Got an outcome you didn't like? Too bad, suck it up and move on.


There's a strong aversion to letting go, and people need to learn it now rather than later.

It's a different playstyle and often depends on the game design. In Tides of Numenera your "fails" can lead to a more interesting narration or outcome. It's not a failure per se, it's a different outcome, different path. But in many games, a bad roll is a punishable failure with negative consequences for something you could not control. Considering most gamers go through an RPG once, no wonder they want to see the best (the "right") outcome during that single run.

Different styles of gaming.

Really like Tides of Numenera. A **** shame it was such a disappointment in the end.

[Griffin]

True respec isn’t possible in Owlcat games with Toybox mods. For the MC you can do it mostly however certain decisions are permanent and character customization in appearance is locked off when finished making your character.

Companions are more restrictive because Owlcat has made it known they want to keep there class consistent with there character. ( Typically able to respec only to level 5 or I believe 10 in certain cases)

I do understand what your getting out but game dev should make more of effort to make that sort of functionality fit in the game and have tangible consequences if being used.

You can respec companions in Owlcat games only to the level they are recruited at, so some you can respec to first level if they're early enough, but some like Grimbor you can respec only to level 8 or 9.

[Nooneatall]

You playing computer games wrong!

You entertain yourself the wrong!

You're enjoying it wrong!

You having fun wrong!

Listen some random people on the internet how to have fun the right way!

Yes.

Same thing that I said to the Rusty. I interested to see what your arguments in defense of this position.

I have no idea why people give a **** about this. It's a video game. You can do whatever the **** you want on your single player game. Mod your character into a giant **** that deals a million damage per hit for all I care. Cheat to get the strongest item. Save scum every 5 minutes. Use save states.

I think people played too much Dark Souls and Nintendo Games and came to the conclusion that every game has to do ball torture on you or it's not a "real game" or you aren't a "real gamer" or some ****. The point of a game is to have fun. For instance, if you were playing a game of flag football with your friends and you all agreed that you shouldn't be able to rush the QB would you sperg out because that's "not the real way" to play football? No because that would be ******** as ****. You'd shut the **** up and have fun with your friends. If you were shooting hoops by yourself would you sperg out if you cheated and traveled with the ball? Again no, because that would be ******* ********. When we are playing games we tend to want to have fun.

However you are playing your game that's fun for you, do it. This is the same stance that everyone should have for any software but somehow that stance started to get ****** up with stuff like social media too. Then people just let the software dictate stuff to them instead of them controlling the software.

Being a "real gamer" probably means you are a ****** who gets slammed into lockers anyway so it's better to not be that.

[Trickster]

It’s called manual saves . If you mess up a character design that you feel the need to change it reload a previous save state.

People need to learn to accept what they got and go on. Your game doesn't need to be a series of perfects, just take what you get and go on with it.
I rarely ever reload a game outside of when I get a gameover or encounter a bug now. Got an outcome you didn't like? Too bad, suck it up and move on.


There's a strong aversion to letting go, and people need to learn it now rather than later.

Honestly, save scumming is NOT a gamer issue, it's a flaw in game design itself. If a game lets you save and reload, people are gonna do it for efficiency or to avoid dealing with a tedious part of the game. Seriously, the only real solution is a system where players don't lose their progress when they die and death doesn't mean game over. And, where there are no "bad decisions" that result in lost content. Any other crap involving restraining yourself is just straight-up autism and that’s just catering to the game's flaws. Plain and simple.

[Kalarion]

God you people are disgusting. A fundamental part of a game is that it's played within the boundaries set by its rules. If it's not played within those boundaries you're not playing the game any more, you're just stroking off. You might argue that your stroking off is more fun and fulfilling than playing a game you vile degenerates, but I won't tolerate your trying to wear the game-player skinsuit. You will be called out.

"Take **** from as many bears Cheat all you want in your bedroom single-player CRPG!"
"What do you mean everyone thinks I'm a slut I have to live with my decisions?! I didn't know riding the **** carousel my build wasn't the most optimal choice!"
"Oh my God why do bad things happen to good people developers let you save your game then?! Checkmate Christians game-enjoyers!"

You don't want a game, you want a computer-based masturbation device.

Yes I know you would actually like one @Nooneatall, I still love you though

[Xenich]

It’s called manual saves . If you mess up a character design that you feel the need to change it reload a previous save state.

People need to learn to accept what they got and go on. Your game doesn't need to be a series of perfects, just take what you get and go on with it.
I rarely ever reload a game outside of when I get a gameover or encounter a bug now. Got an outcome you didn't like? Too bad, suck it up and move on.


There's a strong aversion to letting go, and people need to learn it now rather than later.

I think that is a fair point. Saves should be for when the game will essentially be "over" if you don't succeed. Any negatives within a success should be fixable through continued game play. I think the problem with some designs is if they make the negatives from a poor success an irreversible failure that can never be recovered from that becomes a problem.

There are also the issues where if one does the math, the eventual result of that initial failure is just a guaranteed progression to complete failure and so people just reload for a more optimal result knowing what that poor success ultimately means.

[Nooneatall]

God you people are disgusting. A fundamental part of a game is that it's played within the boundaries set by its rules. If it's not played within those boundaries you're not playing the game any more, you're just stroking off. You might argue that your stroking off is more fun and fulfilling than playing a game you vile degenerates, but I won't tolerate your trying to wear the game-player skinsuit. You will be called out.

"Take **** from as many bears Cheat all you want in your bedroom single-player CRPG!"
"What do you mean everyone thinks I'm a slut I have to live with my decisions?! I didn't know riding the **** carousel my build wasn't the most optimal choice!"
"Oh my God why do bad things happen to good people developers let you save your game then?! Checkmate Christians game-enjoyers!"

You don't want a game, you want a computer-based masturbation device.

Yes I know you would actually like one @Nooneatall, I still love you though

So you never alter or change the rules in games at all? You've never played someone's home grown table top game based off another game with altered rules but still called the same game?
I could make the same argument that people who play with extra rules are stroking themselves off and playing outside the way the game was intended to play.
Dark souls for instance obviously intends for you to play it with a controller and for you to use the systems in the game such as leveling and getting gear. Is it cheating if you go to the dragon and shoot its tail for 10 minutes to get an OP early game weapon? Is it playing outside the bounds of the intended systems of the game if you never level? How about if you play and beat the game with a DDR controller? The latter two are impressive feats and I think it's cool as hell and encourage people to do that. I also encourage people to mod their game to make every enemy a level 1 rat they can kill in one hit if they think it's fun and they like it.

Final Fantasy 5 intends for you to switch jobs to beat the game. What if you select your 4 jobs at the start and play the whole game with only those jobs?
Final Fantasy Tactics intends for you to use a party and gives you some OP characters and there are cheesy ways to get strong within the game (accumlate spam). Is that cheating and masturbating? What about if you beat the game with just Ramza? Isn't that just masturbating more impressively?

Again, it's a video game. It's not real life. You get nothing except entertainment and your own sense of accomplishment if you do something. Maybe bragging rights if you do something particularly cool like beat the game with a DDR mat. But in the end it doesn't matter, because it's not something you do to "gain" something, aside from fun.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

You behave like wokies now. Why do you care if somebody play with loading saves? Just play it your way!

[Xenich]

So you are playing a party in a dungeon... you hit a really bad encounter, 1/2 your party is incapacitated through some means (ie disease, sleep, etc...). There is a way to fix this, but... you still have several areas to move through in order to return to town/camp area and heal/cure those members. Those members are key roles such as healing and cures and the encounter types you are dealing with are rough.

What do you do? Do you continue to try and get to the town with the knowledge that you have 3-5 more encounters and the next one has most likely statistical chance of failure? Or do you reload the encounter, change tactics and attempt to beat the encounter in a way that will allow you success?

Or in an RPG of many hours already played are you supposed to "Rogue like" the game and just start over?

[Nooneatall]

So you are playing a party in a dungeon... you hit a really bad encounter, 1/2 your party is incapacitated through some means (ie disease, sleep, etc...). There is a way to fix this, but... you still have several areas to move through in order to return to town/camp area and heal/cure those members. Those members are key roles such as healing and cures and the encounter types you are dealing with are rough.

What do you do? Do you continue to try and get to the town with the knowledge that you have 3-5 more encounters and the next one has most likely statistical chance of failure? Or do you reload the encounter, change tactics and attempt to beat the encounter in a way that will allow you success?

Or in an RPG of many hours already played are you supposed to "Rogue like" the game and just start over?

WTF why would cheat and load a save? What are you some sort of ******? You better delete the ******* save off your system and start over you ******* piece of ****. That would be the based and red pilled thing to do. I only get validation of my existence from video games btw.

[rusty_shackleford]

Cheaters seething at being called out for cheating

[Jordy]

My Playstation never came with a memory card. Everytime I played Tomb Raider I had to start from the beginning.

[rusty_shackleford]

It’s called manual saves . If you mess up a character design that you feel the need to change it reload a previous save state.

People need to learn to accept what they got and go on. Your game doesn't need to be a series of perfects, just take what you get and go on with it.
I rarely ever reload a game outside of when I get a gameover or encounter a bug now. Got an outcome you didn't like? Too bad, suck it up and move on.


There's a strong aversion to letting go, and people need to learn it now rather than later.

It's a different playstyle and often depends on the game design. In Tides of Numenera your "fails" can lead to a more interesting narration or outcome. It's not a failure per se, it's a different outcome, different path. But in many games, a bad roll is a punishable failure with negative consequences for something you could not control. Considering most gamers go through an RPG once, no wonder they want to see the best (the "right") outcome during that single run.

Different styles of gaming.

Why not just read a book or watch a movie instead then?