What's missing in card-based rpgs? Anything?

[NotAI]

QUERY: What's missing in card-based rpgs? Anything?

DEFINITION: Card-based means at least actions are cards in a deck. Characters or their parts might also be cards in a deck. Items might also be cards in a deck. Places also might be made out of cards in a deck.

Might be an autobattler or real-time with pause, or turn-based.

[WhiteShark]

Simulation. Cards are very abstract and don't relate to the world in any intelligible way; they're pure game mechanics. The most simulationist you can get with cards is making a magic system that maps to them in some way.

[Xenich]

Simulation. Cards are very abstract and don't relate to the world in any intelligible way; they're pure game mechanics. The most simulationist you can get with cards is making a magic system that maps to them in some way.

Yeah, I am of the mindset of... either make a card game or make an RPG. I really can't stand the hybrid "look ma! I am playing an RPG, but with cards!"

[The_Mask]

I haven't played many, but Cultist Simulator relied a lot on cards, and all I can say is that if you're gonna do that, you might want to make everything else a bit flashier.

And Cultist Simulator does try. But I would've loved to see more. Like when you regenerate a limb, I would've loved to see that. When you lose stats, would've loved to see that. Would've loved to see the Mansus a bit more animated. Same with when you come up with a Remarkable Painting.

Like... people that make these games for some reason love the low production value inherent, so they don't try much with everything else.

[rusty_shackleford]

I like the aspect of having to react to what you're given and making the best of a bad hand, but it's also very abstract and there's no good way to reconcile this outside of some magic systems.

[Tweed]

Fun.⠀

[Vergil]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

[Xenich]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

[Vergil]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

Whatever I don't keep up with this pronoun ****

[Stack of Turtles]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

Autism

[Xenich]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

Whatever I don't keep up with this pronoun ****

So you don't know what a card RPG is? Or you don't know what traditional card games are?

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

Would a game like Thronebreaker count as a RPG card game?

[Vergil]

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

Whatever I don't keep up with this pronoun ****

So you don't know what a card RPG is? Or you don't know what traditional card games are?

WHOA hey buddy I'm in the union!

[Xenich]

What sort of mental illness makes people pretend to enjoy card games?

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

Would a game like Thronebreaker count as a RPG card game?

I would say so.

RPG basic play, conflicts resolved in card games. For me, if I play a card game, I prefer simply playing a the card game. If I want to play an RPG, I prefer an RPG.

Micropose had a 1997 PC game of Magic the Gathering which contained both. It had a "duels" game (which also had AI ran opponents) and then it had a RPG style implementation of it called Shandalar. The card game is the first screen and the second is the RPG area for shandalar. All conflicts were resolved with through the duels game space, but you walked around with RNG encounters, dungeons, and towns to buy cards.

While shandalar wasn't bad, ultimately it is just the Duels game with a bunch of fluff and like I said, this kinds of detracts from the intended play.





The problem I see is that the more focus put on either area detracts from the other and if massive effort is put into both, you get this constant battling between the two. It is "interesting", but at least for the implementations I have seen, it just doesn't seem to work and most seem to result in just being weak card games to avoid any real attention to combat/development mechanics. It seems either focus would be better served having the full attention, but I do see why some may choose it because making a simplistic card game for conflict resolution is often far easier than a detailed RPG combat system.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

You mean card RPGs, or just card games in general (ie Magic, or even things like poker/cribbage/rummy/etc...)?

Would a game like Thronebreaker count as a RPG card game?

I would say so.

RPG basic play, conflicts resolved in card games. For me, if I play a card game, I prefer simply playing a the card game. If I want to play an RPG, I prefer an RPG.

Micropose had a 1997 PC game of Magic the Gathering which contained both. It had a "duels" game (which also had AI ran opponents) and then it had a RPG style implementation of it called Shandalar. The card game is the first screen and the second is the RPG area for shandalar. All conflicts were resolved with through the duels game space, but you walked around with RNG encounters, dungeons, and towns to buy cards.

While shandalar wasn't bad, ultimately it is just the Duels game with a bunch of fluff and like I said, this kinds of detracts from the intended play.





The problem I see is that the more focus put on either area detracts from the other and if massive effort is put into both, you get this constant battling between the two. It is "interesting", but at least for the implementations I have seen, it just doesn't seem to work and most seem to result in just being weak card games to avoid any real attention to combat/development mechanics. It seems either focus would be better served having the full attention, but I do see why some may choose it because making a simplistic card game for conflict resolution is often far easier than a detailed RPG combat system.

I tired some card gam RPG’s and never liked them for the reasons you stated.Only one I kinda enjoyed was Throne Breaker but after a while I found the gameplay boring and put it auto victory mode.

[NotAI]

So basically the graphics should not be too shite. They usually are but they should not be.

What about auto-battler aspects - maybe letting games auto-battle beyond a point should open up additional gameplay mechanics one level up that were locked when manually battling it out?

[MC_Sea]

I would say either a great story or a great soundtrack. Preferably both but one can usually make up for the other.
A catchy soundtrack is important since matches and battles (especially boss battles) can take a long time to finish. The last thing you want in a game is having the player listen to the same boring track for 70% of their playtime. Having a catchy theme to listen to makes people more patient with the gameplay as well depending on how slow a game is.

Yugioh 5DS World Championship 2011: Over the Nexus is a perfect example of this. The matches may take a while due to slow AI but people were willing to wait because they could listen to catchy music in the meantime. Plus, people often remember the game a decade later simply because of the soundtrack.
(Sidenote: This was the last good Yugioh game. Konami got overtaken by ******* later on. They now ban anyone who misgenders, isn't vaxxed + boosted, and isn't wearing a mask in live/online events. Not a company worth supporting.)

A fitting example for a Card RPG with a great story is Baiten Kaitos 1+2 on Gamecube. (NOT the ****** port on Steam)
It does a good job at motivating the player to go through areas quickly to get to next plot point as well as throwing a couple of twists along the way. It certainly helps that the game has endearing characters that stay with you for the 2 games. Most card games have barebones stories which gives people no reason to remember them once they experienced all the cards/encounters available.

(Sidenote: The Steam port is ****** because it introduces new bugs that weren't in the original, lacks QOL upgrades, has a severely censored and subversive "localization" that ends up interfering with the plot, removes English dub due to said "localization", breaks character/enemy animations, is surprisingly resource intensive, etc. The port was made by Bandai Namco so it's no surprise they sabotaged it to the ground with their terrible management. Another company not worth supporting.)

[NotAI]

For fun asked this question to an AI.

The following is what it said.

---What would be fun rules for a card game?

"Here are some fun rules for a card game:

"Steal a Card": When a player draws a card, they can choose to "steal" a card from another player's hand and replace it with the one they just drew.
"Swap Hands": At the start of each turn, players can choose to swap hands with another player at the table.
"Wild Card Power": Designate one card in the deck as a "wild card." This card can be played as any suit and rank the player chooses.
"Card Combos": Certain combinations of cards (e.g., a 5 of hearts and a 6 of diamonds) can be played to activate special abilities, such as skipping another player's turn or forcing them to draw extra cards.
"Card Trading": Players can trade cards with each other during their turns, but only if both players agree to the trade.
"Card Multiplier": Assign a multiplier to certain cards (e.g., a 3 of clubs x2, a 7 of spades x3). When played, these cards multiply the value of the next card played.
"Card Cancellation": When a player plays a card, another player can play a card of the same rank to cancel the original card's effects.
"Card Collection": Players can collect sets of cards (e.g., three cards of the same rank) to earn bonus points at the end of the game.
"Card Disguise": Players can disguise their cards by placing them face-down on the table. Other players must guess the rank and suit of the card to use its ability.
"Card Chain Reaction": When a player plays a card, the next player must play a card of the same suit. If they cannot, they must draw a card. This continues until someone plays a card of the same suit as the original card.

These rules can be mixed and matched to create a unique and exciting card game experience. Remember to adjust the rules to suit your player group's preferences and skill levels. Have fun!"

---What if that game is a role playing game?

"In a role-playing game, the card game can incorporate elements of storytelling, character development, and strategic decision-making. Here are some ideas for fun rules in a role-playing card game:

"Character Ability Cards": Each player has a set of character ability cards, which represent their character's unique skills and abilities. Players can use these cards during the game to perform special actions or overcome challenges.
"Quest Cards": Introduce quest cards, which represent missions or objectives that players must complete to progress through the game. Players can work together or against each other to complete these quests, which may require them to use their character ability cards or negotiate with other players.
"NPC (Non-Player Character) Cards": Include NPC cards, which represent non-player characters that players may encounter during their journey. These cards can have their own agendas, motivations, and abilities, and may interact with players in various ways.
"Item Cards": Introduce item cards, which represent useful objects or artifacts that players can collect and use to aid them in their quests. These items may have unique abilities or requirements for usage.
"Relationship Cards": Players can collect relationship cards, which represent connections and alliances with other characters in the game. These relationships can be used to gain advantages, information, or support during quests.
"Event Cards": Include event cards, which represent unexpected occurrences that can impact the game. These events may be positive or negative, and can be used to add an element of surprise and excitement to the game.
"Experience Points": Players can earn experience points (XP) by completing quests, defeating enemies, or achieving certain milestones. These XP can be used to level up their characters, unlocking new abilities or improving existing ones.
"Role Swapping": Allow players to swap roles with each other during the game, providing an opportunity to experience the game from a different perspective and explore new strategies.
"Hidden Objectives": Each player has a hidden objective that they are working towards, which may not be revealed until the end of the game. This adds a layer of intrigue and competition to the game, as players must balance their own objectives with the quests and events of the game.
"Game Master": One player takes on the role of the game master, responsible for narrating the story, controlling non-player characters, and resolving events. This player can also create challenges and puzzles for the other players to overcome.

These rules can be adjusted and combined to create a unique role-playing card game experience. Remember to encourage creativity, collaboration, and strategic thinking among players. Have fun!"

---What is a turn-based version of such a card game in 3D?

"A turn-based 3D card game can be an exciting and immersive experience. Here's a concept for a turn-based 3D card game that incorporates the elements discussed earlier:

Title: "Card Realm"

Game Overview: In Card Realm, players take on the roles of powerful wizards, each with their own unique deck of cards and abilities. Players navigate through a 3D landscape, battling enemies, completing quests, and collecting resources to strengthen their decks and advance their objectives.

Gameplay:

Each player starts at their own starting location in the 3D landscape and takes turns during a round.
On each turn, players can perform two actions: draw a card, play a card, or move to an adjacent location.
Players can draw cards from their deck, which consists of a mix of character ability cards, quest cards, NPC cards, item cards, and relationship cards.
Players can play cards from their hand to perform actions, such as attacking enemies, completing quests, or interacting with NPCs. Each card has a unique ability and cost, which must be paid in resources (such as gold, mana, or experience points).
Players can move to adjacent locations to explore new areas, encounter enemies or NPCs, or participate in quests.
Enemies and NPCs can be battled using cards, with the aim of reducing their health to zero. Players can also use items or abilities to gain advantages or heal themselves during battles.
Quests provide rewards and XP for completing objectives, which can be used to level up characters and unlock new cards or abilities.
Relationship cards can be played to form alliances or rivalries with other players, allowing for strategic negotiations and collaborations.
Event cards can be played by the game master to introduce unexpected challenges or opportunities, adding an element of surprise and excitement to the game.
The game is won when a player achieves their hidden objective, which can be related to completing quests, accumulating resources, or defeating a specific enemy.

3D Elements:

The 3D landscape consists of different terrains, such as forests, mountains, or deserts, each with its own unique challenges and opportunities.
Enemy and NPC characters are represented by 3D models, which can move and interact with players.
Quest objectives and events are displayed as 3D objects or holographic projections, adding to the immersive atmosphere.
Players' cards and characters are represented by 3D models, which can be customized and upgraded throughout the game.
The game board is a 3D map, with players' locations and movements represented by avatars.

This is just one possible concept for a turn-based 3D card game. The game can be further developed and refined based on player feedback and preferences. Have fun!"

---How can that kind of game be converted into a real-time game?

"Converting a turn-based game like Card Realm into a real-time game requires adjusting the mechanics to accommodate faster-paced action and decision-making. Here are some ideas for converting the game into a real-time format:

Action Points: Introduce action points (AP) as a resource that players can use to perform actions. Players can gain AP by defeating enemies, completing quests, or collecting resources. Actions can include drawing cards, playing cards, moving, and attacking.
Timed Turns: Instead of taking turns, players have a set amount of time (e.g., 30 seconds) to make their decisions and perform actions. When the time runs out, the next player takes their turn.
Real-time Combat: Enemies can attack players in real-time, requiring them to react quickly and make decisions on the fly. Players can use cards to counterattack, heal, or defend themselves.
Dynamic Environments: The 3D landscape can be made more interactive, with players able to interact with objects, creatures, and other elements in real-time. For example, players can pick up items, use environmental objects as cover, or trigger traps.
Card Management: Players must manage their card decks more carefully in real-time, as they can no longer take their time to strategize. Players can only play a limited number of cards per turn or must discard cards to gain more AP.
Resource Management: Players must balance their resources (AP, health, mana, etc.) more carefully in real-time, as they cannot take time to heal or replenish resources between turns.
Multiplayer Modes: Introduce multiplayer modes, such as co-op, PvP, or team-based gameplay, to add an extra layer of competition and interaction among players.
AI Opponents: Implement AI opponents that can adapt to players' strategies and provide a challenging experience for solo play or when waiting for other players to join a multiplayer game.
Dynamic Quests: Quest objectives can be made more dynamic and time-sensitive in real-time, requiring players to act quickly to complete them before a deadline or face consequences.
Customization: Allow players to customize their characters and decks more extensively, with the option to create their own cards and abilities.

By implementing these changes, Card Realm can be transformed into a fast-paced, real-time game that challenges players to think and act quickly. The game can still maintain its strategic elements while adding a new layer of excitement and urgency. Have fun!"

---What is usually missing in card-based role-playing games or auto-battlers?

"While card-based role-playing games and auto-battlers have gained popularity, there are some common elements that are often missing or underdeveloped. Here are some areas that could be improved:

Character Development: While cards may represent character abilities, character development and growth may be lacking. Players may not feel a strong connection to their characters or have a sense of progression throughout the game.
Storytelling: Card games often focus on gameplay mechanics and strategies, leaving the story and setting underdeveloped or shallow. Players may not be invested in the game's world or characters, making it harder to immerse themselves in the experience.
Role-playing Elements: Although the term "role-playing game" suggests a strong focus on character development and storytelling, some card-based RPGs may neglect these elements in favor of card-based mechanics. Players may want a deeper sense of customization and choice in their characters.
Emotional Connection: Card games can sometimes feel abstract and lack emotional depth. Players may want to feel more connected to the game's world, characters, and story, making it harder to become emotionally invested in the game.
Replayability: While card games often offer varied decks and strategies, replayability may be limited by the game's mechanics or lack of randomization. Players may want more options for customization, randomization, or branching storylines to encourage multiple playthroughs.
Social Interaction: While some card games focus on competitive multiplayer, others may lack social interaction or cooperative play. Players may want more opportunities to interact with others, form alliances, or collaborate on challenges.
Depth and Complexity: Some card games may feel too simple or predictable, lacking depth and complexity. Players may want more intricate strategies, mechanics, or systems to keep them engaged and challenged.
Longevity: Some card games may have limited longevity, as players may quickly become bored or exhausted by the game's mechanics or content. Players may want more regular updates, new content, or expansions to keep the game fresh and exciting over time."

Random search based language models are as good or better at designing games than most AAA and Indie companies at this point.

"Must discard cards (from the hand) to gain more AP" is probably the most interesting point.

One can make a better twist: sacrifice cards permanently to get AP in a battle, meaning card lost forever, rather than being recovered into the deck after the battle is ended? What if cards are unique likeable characters with XP or their "arms" or "legs"?

In a party based RPG it could be having many more opportunities to get additions to the party but the "health recovery flask" for any fight involves permanent sacrifices of characters or parts or items, why not?

[Norfleet]

DEFINITION: Card-based means at least actions are cards in a deck. Characters or their parts might also be cards in a deck. Items might also be cards in a deck. Places also might be made out of cards in a deck.

This is a very loose definition of "card-based", because cards are, ultimately, visual presentation and nothing more. You can take a game that is not a card game and visually present it as a "card game" without changing anything mechanically. Conversely, you can take a game that is a "card game" and remove the cards without any mechanical changes whatsoever, so now there are no cards.

The core characteristics of the classic "card game" is that they're heavily dominated by small-scale RNG, and your available actions are determined at random. A game that simply uses cards as playing tokens or pieces is not truly a "card game" in this sense. A game like Poker is a "card game". A game where you build a castle out of cards and then lay siege to it by physically flinging objects such as marbles or dice at it is not.

As such, the "Card Gameyness" continuum is not really about physical presentation of the game's tokens or playspace as "cards", but rather, the notion that your actions, more so than their outcomes, are decided or limited by random chance. If my ability to cast a fireball is determined by fixed, largely nonrandom rules, and how much damage the enemy takes when I cast a fireball is determined randomly, this is less card-game than if my ability to cast a fireball at all is determined by arbitrary randomness, while the effects of actually doing this might be totally nonrandom.

What can often be missing from card games (RPG or not)? The sense that your involvement even matters. Especially against a computer. If whether I win or lose is decided essentially at random, and no amount of perfect play (gittin' gud) can prevent defeat, I just stop caring about this game entirely. It becomes a process of executing a statistical attack against the system with my involvement simply being a tedious rubber stamp.

[WhiteShark]

What can often be missing from card games (RPG or not)? The sense that your involvement even matters. Especially against a computer. If whether I win or lose is decided essentially at random, and no amount of perfect play (gittin' gud) can prevent defeat, I just stop caring about this game entirely. It becomes a process of executing a statistical attack against the system with my involvement simply being a tedious rubber stamp.

This can certainly be an issue in a poorly designed card game, but that only addresses the tactical side of card games. The other half, or maybe more, of card games is the strategic side: deckbuilding. Much like many RPGs with simple combat, the most important decisions are often made before the battle even begins, and the battle becomes a test of the quality of those decisions.

[Nooneatall]

Card games are always generic mobile trash. What happens is, someone writes core game functionality (in this case a card deck building system) they sell that for some game engine. Then, someone trying to make a quick buck pays some Indians to make some ugly 2d art and then the "game Dev" combines the ugly 2d art with that deck building system and gives it away on the app store with micro transactions. Or they'll sell it on steam for 20 bucks

[J1M]

I like the idea of an RPG-themed card game where wounds are represented as dead cards in your hand. I don't know if anyone has pulled it off yet. I also think it is interesting to try and make a game where you have "stat cards", such as "STR" that are used to augment other cards, similar to how lands serve a supporting role in Magic, but as more of combo card than as a permanent on the field.

I understand the allergic reaction people have to them these days. There are a lot of them out now because they are easy to make and it's hard to determine if a card game is bad or has depth without some effort.

[Norfleet]

This can certainly be an issue in a poorly designed card game, but that only addresses the tactical side of card games. The other half, or maybe more, of card games is the strategic side: deckbuilding. Much like many RPGs with simple combat, the most important decisions are often made before the battle even begins, and the battle becomes a test of the quality of those decisions.

Deckbuilding is simply an attempt at mitigating that issue. It's certainly not a universal feature of card games. Blackjack and Poker have no deckbuilding. But yes, in addition to the severe reduction in player agency over the outcome, cardgames often remove the game from the game. I remember playing a ****** pay-to-win card battler MMO, which I personally didn't actually like, but I was there because all my friends were there. I wound up not really playing the game, but instead working on the statistical analysis of the game, creating calculators and tools to calculate the mathematically optimal deck and moves. I had essentially eliminated all remaining illusions of "gameplay" from the game.

[NotAI]

Deckbuilding is simply an attempt at mitigating that issue...

Richard Garfield argued the deckbuilding, ie the meta, is one of the intentionally key aspects of such games. It is not?

(Poker, blackjack, are much simpler games. RPGs are usually extremely complex at least because of items they are games of exceptions, more like collectible card games.)

Jack Good btw pointed out how games which are heavily stochastic can still be more or less skill based. Depends on whether you can assign a ranking to players that has decent statistical prediction of (high rank player A,low rank player B) => A will win 90% subjective probability, B will win 25% subjective probability

[Norfleet]

Richard Garfield argued the deckbuilding, ie the meta, is one of the intentionally key aspects of such games. It is not?

That's exactly my point, yes. That the metagame becomes the game and the actual game largely vanishes. Much or all of the game is thus played outside of the game, and the actual game is reduced to a rubber stamp. This is exactly my experience with heavily "cardgameized" games. It stopped being a game about your individual decisions as a player and more about following a script that I had calculated out. Individual outcomes ceased to matter because there the individual had no actual control over the outcome once the game started.

[A Chinese opium den]

Richard Garfield argued the deckbuilding, ie the meta, is one of the intentionally key aspects of such games. It is not?

That's exactly my point, yes. That the metagame becomes the game and the actual game largely vanishes. Much or all of the game is thus played outside of the game, and the actual game is reduced to a rubber stamp. This is exactly my experience with heavily "cardgameized" games. It stopped being a game about your individual decisions as a player and more about following a script that I had calculated out. Individual outcomes ceased to matter because there the individual had no actual control over the outcome once the game started.

What kind of **** card games are you talking about that dont have player interaction and ways to disrupt the other guy's gameplan? Yeah sure you're trying to play out your deck's line but the other guy should be trying to do his deck and be interfering with yours by doing that.

[Norfleet]

What kind of **** card games are you talking about that dont have player interaction and ways to disrupt the other guy's gameplan? Yeah sure you're trying to play out your deck's line but the other guy should be trying to do his deck and be interfering with yours by doing that.

I remind you that RPGs are mainly single player. There is no other guy.

[A Chinese opium den]

What kind of **** card games are you talking about that dont have player interaction and ways to disrupt the other guy's gameplan? Yeah sure you're trying to play out your deck's line but the other guy should be trying to do his deck and be interfering with yours by doing that.

I remind you that RPGs are mainly single player. There is no other guy.

You said it was an MMO.

[Norfleet]

You said it was an MMO.

I didn't really say it was a GOOD MMO with live-action combat. You got to beat up on the static preset decks of the other participants in the game. Thus you knew exactly what you were up against and could essentially calculate the mathematically optimal sequence to play. Which is exactly what I did.

At one point, in an attempt to make it harder, they inverted the play order so that the "Defender" would get first move instead, resulting in most of the players in the game being getting utterly destroyed, except my team, because I could easily calculate that sequence out trivially. It's funny because they made that change specifically to make MY life more difficult, and it did precisely the opposite, as we could now "win" on defense without having to do anything while also winning on offense.

[NotAI]

DEFINITION: Card-based means at least actions are cards in a deck. Characters or their parts might also be cards in a deck. Items might also be cards in a deck. Places also might be made out of cards in a deck.

This is a very loose definition of "card-based", because cards are, ultimately, visual presentation and nothing more. You can take a game that is not a card game and visually present it as a "card game" without changing anything mechanically. Conversely, you can take a game that is a "card game" and remove the cards without any mechanical changes whatsoever, so now there are no cards...

By the way, actually, that loose definition was intentional.

So that games are included which abstract a classic RPG and could, if visually represented and "sped up", transform back into a real-time RPG. (Not even "necessarily" turn-based.)

I think card based is actually a pretty good approach to reducing a budget from >100M to <1M, keeping mechanics invariant, especially in these days of "easy" AI.

The randomness aspect of traditional card games is primarily also due to them being simple games.

If a game is very complicated, with hundreds of different items, even if it mechanically random like blackjack, so long as hands can be very long, equivalent to complicated "character building". It soon becomes a game of skill almost like a deterministic game.

D(X|Y)\A\B\... abbreviates drop card X conditional upon being offered card Y if you already hold A, B, ...

With a complex game in terms of mechanics, chance deciding the cards you get or completely nonrandom rules end up being similar when you also have a long enough game.

Chance arguably dominates in blackjack because it's a very simple and very short loop game. People play it mostly for the thrills that come very soon one after another, not progression. RPG is a genre however that is played for progression. So from (1) zero to hero or from (2) hero day one who has however lost all his supreme gear "because he's silly like that" to recovering all the good gear again.