RPG Design of the past

[Luckmann]

My previous post was obviously in jest, especially since I couldn't stop laughing at Rusty's comment on giving people wrong directions as a joke. But the more I think about it, it's actually true. We're (by which I mean you are) getting bogged down into specifically Morrowind, and worse, this specific instance. But that's not really what it's about.

What options do we really have here? We only really have two.

The first option is the quest compass; a system that relies entirely on metagaming cues and information, marking the immediate location and/or an expedient path to progress a quest, even if said quest is meant to have twists and turns (sometimes spoiled by the mere presence of said quest markers). It allows developers a convenient "out" when designing quests, allowing them to completely ignore giving the directions or hints or conveyance of facts that you'd necessarily be informed of in an immersive context, and it quickly reduces gameplay to a paint-by-numbers checkpoint marathon of going form A to B to C and collect prize, and then go on to the next pleasure button in the skinner box - and you can't blame the players for this behavior, because they are just humans, and they are going to act like it even to our shared detriment.

The other option is to not do any of that, and instead convey in-universe information in-universe, in a format that makes logical sense within whatever given context. And I'd argue that the potentiality of errors in the conveyance of that information does not in itself invalidate this approach, but can in many cases add to it, by adding uncertainty as well as bamboozlings, teaching players not to trust everything they are fed. Because yes, really, Cicero the Jester may actually be giving you bad directions for an assassination as a joke.

When sheer errors do happen, it is regrettable, but it is something avoidable, it is something that may happen, whereas the alternative - quest-compass-based gameplay - ensures the aforementioned degeneration of gameplay and the player's relation to it, and is the fundamentally worse option.

[Luckmann]

Alright, @some moderator ****** needs to stop moonlighting as Infinitron, because my post sure as hell wasn't meant for this thread. It even references my previous post that obviously isn't in this thread, and makes callbacks to jokes made by others that aren't here either. This is nothing short of vandalizing my written word and I don't approve of it.

[rusty_shackleford]

Alright, some moderator ****** needs to stop moonlighting as Infinitron, because my post sure as hell wasn't meant for this thread. It ever references my previous post that obviously isn't in this thread, and makes callbacks to jokes made by others that aren't here either. This is nothing short of vandalizing my written word and I don't approve of it.

I moved it to the other thread with the split, then moved it back when someone suggested it belongs in this thread.

[Luckmann]

Alright, some moderator ****** needs to stop moonlighting as Infinitron, because my post sure as hell wasn't meant for this thread. It ever references my previous post that obviously isn't in this thread, and makes callbacks to jokes made by others that aren't here either. This is nothing short of vandalizing my written word and I don't approve of it.

I moved it to the other thread with the split, then moved it back when someone suggested it belongs in this thread.

That other someone is clearly in ******* error, and belongs in the chambers. Also, threadsplitting is ******* gay.

[rusty_shackleford]

That other someone is clearly in ******* error,

@WhiteShark you've been called out

Also, threadsplitting is ******* gay.

Policy is if a discussion goes off-topic enough to wait for the discussion to end then split it off to a new thread so as to not interrupt the discussion, but still maintain proper organization.

[Rand]

Alright, some moderator ****** needs to stop moonlighting as Infinitron, because my post sure as hell wasn't meant for this thread. It ever references my previous post that obviously isn't in this thread, and makes callbacks to jokes made by others that aren't here either. This is nothing short of vandalizing my written word and I don't approve of it.

I moved it to the other thread with the split, then moved it back when someone suggested it belongs in this thread.

See, @Luckmann

[Xenich]

I noticed playing MM7, the NPCs tell you a location where a trainer is, but don't give you details on how to get there (ie Bob, Master Fire Trainer is located in Hammond).

So you knew the town, and the name of the person, but from there you have to open your map and see a general location on the map, head that direction and the read road signs (if there are any) and explore your way that direction. Once you got to town, you had to go around town, stopping at various shops/houses looking for the NPC.

LotRO on release did similar approaches. The NPC would reference a location by proximity to a town name and/or a basic description of the location. The player then had to go explore and figure out through other means.

Detailed directions, pointers, maps, etc... remove exploration, mystery, etc... basic game play logistics. Anything else is just hand holding and cheats the experience.

[Kronus]

JA2 and Fallout Tactics are maybe some of the best examples of this, even though neither may be considered "pure" cRPGs, they heavily rely on those mechanics and are hard as hell for their first playthrough, without any guidance or help whatsoever.

[Acrux]

Fallout Tactics

[Xenich]

I remember when devs used to brag about how they confused the players or made something difficult to figure out. I don't get it anymore.

When it clicks as well that this was what you're supposed to do for a hard segment it's a great feeling when done properly. For the past year I've been playing games fully blind without ever intentionally looking anything up, taking a step into the unknown where you don't know whether you'll find the item you want or useful NPC; also adds extra impact when you do. The leap of faith feeling that things will eventually work out. Being able to cross over things that seem completely impossible to do even with unlimited practice is really the rawest form of challenge out there, and uses your head instead of motor skills.

Yeah, I would have to say that accessibility to information, cheats, guides, etc... have seriously ruined gaming experiences for many and the sad thing is a lot of them don't even realize it because it is all they know.

You would see people argue about various game aspects from a perspective of someone who looked everything up while not understanding that without that pre-knowledge, you wouldn't know the optimal decision to make.

This effects everything from how difficult the game is up to how much time you spend, or as you say, how rewarding the game can be.

A lot of the pre-knowledge severely imbalances the games design as well. People look up optimal class, gear, skills, spells, what areas of the game to focus on first, etc... and the game all of a sudden becomes too easy, but if you had to build with a basic party for the "unknown", balanced for that lack of knowledge, the game can be a struggle at times and it creates memorable experiences in play as you are essentially "learning" the game as you play and each new thing learned is a reward in and of itself.