World of Warcraft: Retail, Classic and Private

[Vergil]

Well, I preferred the EQ style of chasing cosmetics. They were tired to the gear and a part of progression. How you looked was based on what you achieved and that didn't always fit with what you wanted to look like, but then I never cared for the obsessive nature of playing dress up in a "game".

I prefer RNGs, but I do agree risk vs reward has to be balanced within the system and rarity should be scaled to drops (ie Lotto win, Ultra rare, Rare, Uncommon, Common) with lotto being "if it does, it does" and Ultra Rare being unlikely, but possible with extreme time spent (or luck). The rest should be "reasonably" obtained through a proper balance of time'/risk and that can be achieved with a fairly competent RNG.

Nobody "deserves" anything IMO, only the odds for the type of item being properly established through risk vs reward. The whole "If I spend X time, I deserve Y" is a mechanic that brought about Token systems and ******** mundane grind mechanics.

You should get items from playing the video game normally. If you have to do a boss fight 507 times the system is broken.

What is normal?

Rarity is a good thing in a game. Some things should not be easy to come by. Not every aspect of loot should be based on "everyone getting there stuff".

You have two options generally. Either the loot is levels of rarity through an RNG or you measure reward by "time spent".

The former is a good gauge, especially with levels of rarity as content stays purposeful.

With "time spent" you get mundane grinds with guaranteed reward which takes away the anticipation of reward and also creates problems with implementations like "dailies" and the like, essentially telling people they have to stop playing or they will get their rewards too fast.

The latter is what caused me to stop playing games. I know that if I play the widget game "this long" I will get my reward and that is pointless IMO.

I already explained a system to avoid this.

[Stack of Turtles]

What is normal?

Rarity is a good thing in a game. Some things should not be easy to come by. Not every aspect of loot should be based on "everyone getting there stuff".

You have two options generally. Either the loot is levels of rarity through an RNG or you measure reward by "time spent".

The former is a good gauge, especially with levels of rarity as content stays purposeful.

With "time spent" you get mundane grinds with guaranteed reward which takes away the anticipation of reward and also creates problems with implementations like "dailies" and the like, essentially telling people they have to stop playing or they will get their rewards too fast.

The latter is what caused me to stop playing games. I know that if I play the widget game "this long" I will get my reward and that is pointless IMO.

It genuinely sounds like you have a gambling addiction.

[Rand]

[Xenich]

What is normal?

Rarity is a good thing in a game. Some things should not be easy to come by. Not every aspect of loot should be based on "everyone getting there stuff".

You have two options generally. Either the loot is levels of rarity through an RNG or you measure reward by "time spent".

The former is a good gauge, especially with levels of rarity as content stays purposeful.

With "time spent" you get mundane grinds with guaranteed reward which takes away the anticipation of reward and also creates problems with implementations like "dailies" and the like, essentially telling people they have to stop playing or they will get their rewards too fast.

The latter is what caused me to stop playing games. I know that if I play the widget game "this long" I will get my reward and that is pointless IMO.

It genuinely sounds like you have a gambling addiction.

All of modern games lack... Anticipation and excitement in the drop. Call it what you like, but I find the whole "jump through this many hoops, you win this prize" absolutely boring... Every game that I have played that does this, I know how many runs I need to do, what I will get exactly when I do meet that condition, etc...

Absolutely mind numbingly boring.

edit:

Note, gambling can be fun if you understand the odds and measure your approach.

I don't grind for ultra rare crap as I know it is a pointless venture and the odds are against it. The point of those extremely rare drops is a "surprise" of occurrence while you are playing the game generally. It is reasonable to expect getting a rare with a given amount of effort (barring exceptionally bad luck) and in the process of doing a dungeon to get a common, uncommon, or rare, having an ultra rare or lotto style rare drop is just a pleasant surprise.

The only reason I got some hard to get rares in EQ were because I was already doing the content for other reasons.

But go ahead and enjoy your "daily" measured token system with "hurry up and wait" designs. You can impress people with the crap you bought in the store while you wait I guess.

[Xenich]

You should get items from playing the video game normally. If you have to do a boss fight 507 times the system is broken.

What is normal?

Rarity is a good thing in a game. Some things should not be easy to come by. Not every aspect of loot should be based on "everyone getting there stuff".

You have two options generally. Either the loot is levels of rarity through an RNG or you measure reward by "time spent".

The former is a good gauge, especially with levels of rarity as content stays purposeful.

With "time spent" you get mundane grinds with guaranteed reward which takes away the anticipation of reward and also creates problems with implementations like "dailies" and the like, essentially telling people they have to stop playing or they will get their rewards too fast.

The latter is what caused me to stop playing games. I know that if I play the widget game "this long" I will get my reward and that is pointless IMO.

I already explained a system to avoid this.

The "guarantee" drop system? No thanks, garbage IMO, but to each their own I guess.

[TKVNC]

The "guarantee" drop system? No thanks, garbage IMO, but to each their own I guess.

The best system is DD:DA where you have an RNG list that is created when you first install the game, but there is no-way of seeing is because **** Capcom, and no way of editing it, and so it may require you to literally clear content 50+ times (full expansion, not just a single boss) before the item you want has its 'guaranteed drop'.

On topic of WoW, Modern Blizzard are professional whale hunters. If you play Retail you are a ******* loser.

[Vergil]

What is normal?

Rarity is a good thing in a game. Some things should not be easy to come by. Not every aspect of loot should be based on "everyone getting there stuff".

You have two options generally. Either the loot is levels of rarity through an RNG or you measure reward by "time spent".

The former is a good gauge, especially with levels of rarity as content stays purposeful.

With "time spent" you get mundane grinds with guaranteed reward which takes away the anticipation of reward and also creates problems with implementations like "dailies" and the like, essentially telling people they have to stop playing or they will get their rewards too fast.

The latter is what caused me to stop playing games. I know that if I play the widget game "this long" I will get my reward and that is pointless IMO.

I already explained a system to avoid this.

The "guarantee" drop system? No thanks, garbage IMO, but to each their own I guess.

How do you write these monoliths and then fail to read what little I write?

[Xenich]

I already explained a system to avoid this.

The "guarantee" drop system? No thanks, garbage IMO, but to each their own I guess.

How do you write these monoliths and then fail to read what little I write?

Went back through our entire discussion, your premise is that "you should be able to get the item if you want it without some ridiculous chance where you have to farm for 1000's of hours"

I disagree, I think there are some things not everyone is meant to get, that it is a luck issue, something special.

You listed some suggestions that still point to "so people can get what they want" and that is my point of disagreement.

Having a super ultra rare drop as a lotto chance is fine. You seem to think just because it drops, people have a right to it. I don't think so, the RNG serves its purpose in those cases.

[Vergil]

The "guarantee" drop system? No thanks, garbage IMO, but to each their own I guess.

How do you write these monoliths and then fail to read what little I write?

Went back through our entire discussion, your premise is that "you should be able to get the item if you want it without some ridiculous chance where you have to farm for 1000's of hours"

I disagree, I think there are some things not everyone is meant to get, that it is a luck issue, something special.

You listed some suggestions that still point to "so people can get what they want" and that is my point of disagreement.

Having a super ultra rare drop as a lotto chance is fine. You seem to think just because it drops, people have a right to it. I don't think so, the RNG serves its purpose in those cases.

Imagine being such a GOY you pay your master like 15 bucks a month for the opportunity to gamble at the chance to have a possibility to attain content.

[Stack of Turtles]

All of modern games lack... Anticipation and excitement in the drop. Call it what you like, but I find the whole "jump through this many hoops, you win this prize" absolutely boring... Every game that I have played that does this, I know how many runs I need to do, what I will get exactly when I do meet that condition, etc...

Absolutely mind numbingly boring.

edit:

Note, gambling can be fun if you understand the odds and measure your approach.

I don't grind for ultra rare crap as I know it is a pointless venture and the odds are against it. The point of those extremely rare drops is a "surprise" of occurrence while you are playing the game generally. It is reasonable to expect getting a rare with a given amount of effort (barring exceptionally bad luck) and in the process of doing a dungeon to get a common, uncommon, or rare, having an ultra rare or lotto style rare drop is just a pleasant surprise.

The only reason I got some hard to get rares in EQ were because I was already doing the content for other reasons.

But go ahead and enjoy your "daily" measured token system with "hurry up and wait" designs. You can impress people with the crap you bought in the store while you wait I guess.

Yeah that's called a gambling addiction. I don't have whatever brain lesion makes people enjoy gambling. Gambling is never fun, they just make you think it is so you keep wasting money.

[Xenich]

How do you write these monoliths and then fail to read what little I write?

Went back through our entire discussion, your premise is that "you should be able to get the item if you want it without some ridiculous chance where you have to farm for 1000's of hours"

I disagree, I think there are some things not everyone is meant to get, that it is a luck issue, something special.

You listed some suggestions that still point to "so people can get what they want" and that is my point of disagreement.

Having a super ultra rare drop as a lotto chance is fine. You seem to think just because it drops, people have a right to it. I don't think so, the RNG serves its purpose in those cases.

Imagine being such a GOY you pay your master like 15 bucks a month for the opportunity to gamble at the chance to have a possibility to attain content.

RNG systems existed long before MMOs and subs.

Not sure what you are trying to argue against though... RNG in general or games having subs.

[Xenich]

All of modern games lack... Anticipation and excitement in the drop. Call it what you like, but I find the whole "jump through this many hoops, you win this prize" absolutely boring... Every game that I have played that does this, I know how many runs I need to do, what I will get exactly when I do meet that condition, etc...

Absolutely mind numbingly boring.

edit:

Note, gambling can be fun if you understand the odds and measure your approach.

I don't grind for ultra rare crap as I know it is a pointless venture and the odds are against it. The point of those extremely rare drops is a "surprise" of occurrence while you are playing the game generally. It is reasonable to expect getting a rare with a given amount of effort (barring exceptionally bad luck) and in the process of doing a dungeon to get a common, uncommon, or rare, having an ultra rare or lotto style rare drop is just a pleasant surprise.

The only reason I got some hard to get rares in EQ were because I was already doing the content for other reasons.

But go ahead and enjoy your "daily" measured token system with "hurry up and wait" designs. You can impress people with the crap you bought in the store while you wait I guess.

Yeah that's called a gambling addiction. I don't have whatever brain lesion makes people enjoy gambling. Gambling is never fun, they just make you think it is so you keep wasting money.

I don't even know how to approach this because it is ******** on so many levels.

First, the point of a sub is pay for access to a service, these things cover operating costs and the like and expansions cover the development of the product.

Gambling is betting money in hopes of getting a higher return on the money bet.

Gaming RNG systems are based on statistical odds of chance, often combined with strategic leveraging of such. If you play an RPG, you are leveraging your development against the odds within an encounter.

RNG as a loot mechanic is just another layer of the RPG concept. In fact, what do you think DMs do when you go to look at that dragons stash after you slay it? They roll a dice to see what is rewarded.

Yet somehow you ******* have twisted a sub + RNG loot mechanic to = gambling addiction.

Seriously, you have to be trolling now as if I were this ******* stupid, I would end myself.

[Kalarion]

All of modern games lack... Anticipation and excitement in the drop. Call it what you like, but I find the whole "jump through this many hoops, you win this prize" absolutely boring... Every game that I have played that does this, I know how many runs I need to do, what I will get exactly when I do meet that condition, etc...

Absolutely mind numbingly boring.

edit:

Note, gambling can be fun if you understand the odds and measure your approach.

I don't grind for ultra rare crap as I know it is a pointless venture and the odds are against it. The point of those extremely rare drops is a "surprise" of occurrence while you are playing the game generally. It is reasonable to expect getting a rare with a given amount of effort (barring exceptionally bad luck) and in the process of doing a dungeon to get a common, uncommon, or rare, having an ultra rare or lotto style rare drop is just a pleasant surprise.

The only reason I got some hard to get rares in EQ were because I was already doing the content for other reasons.

But go ahead and enjoy your "daily" measured token system with "hurry up and wait" designs. You can impress people with the crap you bought in the store while you wait I guess.

Yeah that's called a gambling addiction. I don't have whatever brain lesion makes people enjoy gambling. Gambling is never fun, they just make you think it is so you keep wasting money.

I don't even know how to approach this because it is ******** on so many levels.

First, the point of a sub is pay for access to a service, these things cover operating costs and the like and expansions cover the development of the product.

Gambling is betting money in hopes of getting a higher return on the money bet.

Gaming RNG systems are based on statistical odds of chance, often combined with strategic leveraging of such. If you play an RPG, you are leveraging your development against the odds within an encounter.

RNG as a loot mechanic is just another layer of the RPG concept. In fact, what do you think DMs do when you go to look at that dragons stash after you slay it? They roll a dice to see what is rewarded.

Yet somehow you ******* have twisted a sub + RNG loot mechanic to = gambling addiction.

Seriously, you have to be trolling now as if I were this ******* stupid, I would end myself.

You're missing the point of being against RNG loot. Maybe Vergil is too, but I think he's just not explicating it well. He can feel free to correct me. TLDR; RNG is a vice, its introduction to MMOs inevitably corrupts both the devs/dev cycle and the playerbase, and even small amounts of RNG (used as a spice) must have firm and ruthless guardrails in place to prevent it from overtaking the entire game. It should never form the primary basis for progression, of either content or gear.

► Longer Explanation

When you add RNG into your game you also add a "pull" into a certain, degenerate, pattern of behavior. The behavior is an addiction to the hamster wheel. It's an addiction that causes players to spend money out of their means, to devote time they shouldn't devote, and in extreme cases to completely wreck their lives. The power of the pull is directly proportional to the amount and effect of the RNG in the game. Less RNG, less pull to degeneracy. More RNG, greater pull. RNG incentivizes these behaviors to a greater or lesser extent. RNG is a vice.

The standard apologetic for RNG in games (especially MMOs) is, "it's player choice. If they can't help themselves they shouldn't do it, and if they do it they're just ******* and deserve (insert X nasty consequence here)!". The moral problems with this stance are paramount and should be obvious. Yet I understand that most people simply don't have a solid moral foundation from which to judge this design paradigm negatively. So, setting aside moral considerations, practically speaking it also corrupts the devs and their dev cycle, and either corrupts or drives away players that are more resistant to RNG as vice.

More RNG introduces massively more studio wealth. Therefore the devs are incentivized to pump the gas on it. Greater RNG introduces greater degeneracy, which pumps more money into the studio. So the devs up the ante again. And so forth. Eventually you end up with late-stage WoW and DDO. How'd that RNG cycle work out for DDO, and for you, good sir "I'm impervious to the pull of RNG and therefore everyone else should be too!" Xenich? Still enjoying your game?

As greater and greater RNG is introduced into the game, even players who would normally be resistant to its pull begin to succumb. Witness Val's testimony in this very thread. Players who are highly resistant begin dropping from the game in disgust at the direction it takes. As the subscribing player-base dwindles, the game must focus more and more on RNG to continue securing funding. Everything goes to ****.

I will agree that comically silly RNG is somewhat acceptable with firm guardrails in place. WoW came closest with things like Runeblade of Baron Rivendare, which had a horrendous drop rate that was (as you were saying) obviously intended to make it a cool memory point/show-off for players, rather than a standard farming item. But there were no guardrails, so people still did it. They still ran Stratholme thousands of times for that shiny piece of loot that they'd be benching within ten levels anyways. Or, for a somewhat lesser version of that, witness Val's testimony in this very thread.

Again, RNG is gambling, is a vice. You play with it at your peril, and you indulge it to your destruction.

[Xenich]

Yeah that's called a gambling addiction. I don't have whatever brain lesion makes people enjoy gambling. Gambling is never fun, they just make you think it is so you keep wasting money.

I don't even know how to approach this because it is ******** on so many levels.

First, the point of a sub is pay for access to a service, these things cover operating costs and the like and expansions cover the development of the product.

Gambling is betting money in hopes of getting a higher return on the money bet.

Gaming RNG systems are based on statistical odds of chance, often combined with strategic leveraging of such. If you play an RPG, you are leveraging your development against the odds within an encounter.

RNG as a loot mechanic is just another layer of the RPG concept. In fact, what do you think DMs do when you go to look at that dragons stash after you slay it? They roll a dice to see what is rewarded.

Yet somehow you ******* have twisted a sub + RNG loot mechanic to = gambling addiction.

Seriously, you have to be trolling now as if I were this ******* stupid, I would end myself.

You're missing the point of being against RNG loot. Maybe Vergil is too, but I think he's just not explicating it well. He can feel free to correct me. TLDR; RNG is a vice, its introduction to MMOs inevitably corrupts both the devs/dev cycle and the playerbase, and even small amounts of RNG (used as a spice) must have firm and ruthless guardrails in place to prevent it from overtaking the entire game. It should never form the primary basis for progression, of either content or gear.

► Longer Explanation

When you add RNG into your game you also add a "pull" into a certain, degenerate, pattern of behavior. The behavior is an addiction to the hamster wheel. It's an addiction that causes players to spend money out of their means, to devote time they shouldn't devote, and in extreme cases to completely wreck their lives. The power of the pull is directly proportional to the amount and effect of the RNG in the game. Less RNG, less pull to degeneracy. More RNG, greater pull. RNG incentivizes these behaviors to a greater or lesser extent. RNG is a vice.

The standard apologetic for RNG in games (especially MMOs) is, "it's player choice. If they can't help themselves they shouldn't do it, and if they do it they're just ******* and deserve (insert X nasty consequence here)!". The moral problems with this stance are paramount and should be obvious. Yet I understand that most people simply don't have a solid moral foundation from which to judge this design paradigm negatively. So, setting aside moral considerations, practically speaking it also corrupts the devs and their dev cycle, and either corrupts or drives away players that are more resistant to RNG as vice.

More RNG introduces massively more studio wealth. Therefore the devs are incentivized to pump the gas on it. Greater RNG introduces greater degeneracy, which pumps more money into the studio. So the devs up the ante again. And so forth. Eventually you end up with late-stage WoW and DDO. How'd that RNG cycle work out for DDO, and for you, good sir "I'm impervious to the pull of RNG and therefore everyone else should be too!" Xenich? Still enjoying your game?

As greater and greater RNG is introduced into the game, even players who would normally be resistant to its pull begin to succumb. Witness Val's testimony in this very thread. Players who are highly resistant begin dropping from the game in disgust at the direction it takes. As the subscribing player-base dwindles, the game must focus more and more on RNG to continue securing funding. Everything goes to ****.

I will agree that comically silly RNG is somewhat acceptable with firm guardrails in place. WoW came closest with things like Runeblade of Baron Rivendare, which had a horrendous drop rate that was (as you were saying) obviously intended to make it a cool memory point/show-off for players, rather than a standard farming item. But there were no guardrails, so people still did it. They still ran Stratholme thousands of times for that shiny piece of loot that they'd be benching within ten levels anyways. Or, for a somewhat lesser version of that, witness Val's testimony in this very thread.

Again, RNG is gambling, is a vice. You play with it at your peril, and you indulge it to your destruction.

I have played games with many friends over the years and the issues you describe were with key people. These people would farm for some ridiculous rare, or... they would grind for massive hours of mundane goals to get some shiny (faction mount in WoW). The point is, it always came down to a specific personality.

Of those people though that I knew, all were adults, working full time jobs, had families, etc... and only one of them I knew had issues with ignoring life responsibilities. That person had this problem with games in general before MMOs (excessive playing in MUDs, FPS, etc...) and they had to give up gaming entirely because of it.

In all other cases, the people either enjoyed this type of play (responsibly), or didn't partake in it because they felt it was wasted effort. Even in EQ, we didn't "Excess" and understood limits (which is why I thought EQ contested raiding was stupid as it required people to forego life responsibilities to play practically).

I learned very early on that what you earn in a game is meaningless. It has no value other than to entertain while you are doing it. If it goes past that, you have more than a "gaming" problem.

As I mentioned with gambling, some people can do it responsibly. They see the aspect of certain games and the entertainment of leveraging odds (Cards, Craps, etc...) and for limited and responsible play, they entertain themselves. Then there are some who have no concept of odds, value, etc... and abuse the entire point wasting money and effort when the point of it is the "experience" in play, not the reward it may bring.

Gaming is no different in time spent, and while I sympathize with those who lack control, claiming that the "system" is the fault (ie basic RNG systems) and not the person themselves is... avoiding responsibility.

I certainly don't dismiss them, but at the same time, it is just a game and expecting games to be made so the people who have self control issues can "play" without becoming obsessive is a goal that can not be achieved in certain styles of games, which... many people actually enjoy "responsibly".

As I said, I never viewed getting an "ultra rare" drop as probable when I would do a dungeon, but I always hoped for it. I also would never farm a dungeon excessively thinking I had a chance. Case in point, MD in DDO has some horrible drop rates for some of the items and knowing this, I don't bother with them. It isn't worth the effort or time, but... if one happens to drop while I am doing a quest chain run for exp or the like, great, but you won't see me focusing on building sets from it, it makes no practical sense.

So there should be balance, and I get that, but I see nothing wrong with "ultra rare" for those who play practically and if it is bad design because some can't control themselves, well... maybe, like my friend, they should give up gaming (or certain types of games), because they aren't responsible enough. /shrug

[Stack of Turtles]

Yeah that's called a gambling addiction. I don't have whatever brain lesion makes people enjoy gambling. Gambling is never fun, they just make you think it is so you keep wasting money.

I don't even know how to approach this because it is ******** on so many levels.

First, the point of a sub is pay for access to a service, these things cover operating costs and the like and expansions cover the development of the product.

Gambling is betting money in hopes of getting a higher return on the money bet.

Gaming RNG systems are based on statistical odds of chance, often combined with strategic leveraging of such. If you play an RPG, you are leveraging your development against the odds within an encounter.

RNG as a loot mechanic is just another layer of the RPG concept. In fact, what do you think DMs do when you go to look at that dragons stash after you slay it? They roll a dice to see what is rewarded.

Yet somehow you ******* have twisted a sub + RNG loot mechanic to = gambling addiction.

Seriously, you have to be trolling now as if I were this ******* stupid, I would end myself.

You're missing the point of being against RNG loot. Maybe Vergil is too, but I think he's just not explicating it well. He can feel free to correct me. TLDR; RNG is a vice, its introduction to MMOs inevitably corrupts both the devs/dev cycle and the playerbase, and even small amounts of RNG (used as a spice) must have firm and ruthless guardrails in place to prevent it from overtaking the entire game. It should never form the primary basis for progression, of either content or gear.

► Longer Explanation

When you add RNG into your game you also add a "pull" into a certain, degenerate, pattern of behavior. The behavior is an addiction to the hamster wheel. It's an addiction that causes players to spend money out of their means, to devote time they shouldn't devote, and in extreme cases to completely wreck their lives. The power of the pull is directly proportional to the amount and effect of the RNG in the game. Less RNG, less pull to degeneracy. More RNG, greater pull. RNG incentivizes these behaviors to a greater or lesser extent. RNG is a vice.

The standard apologetic for RNG in games (especially MMOs) is, "it's player choice. If they can't help themselves they shouldn't do it, and if they do it they're just ******* and deserve (insert X nasty consequence here)!". The moral problems with this stance are paramount and should be obvious. Yet I understand that most people simply don't have a solid moral foundation from which to judge this design paradigm negatively. So, setting aside moral considerations, practically speaking it also corrupts the devs and their dev cycle, and either corrupts or drives away players that are more resistant to RNG as vice.

More RNG introduces massively more studio wealth. Therefore the devs are incentivized to pump the gas on it. Greater RNG introduces greater degeneracy, which pumps more money into the studio. So the devs up the ante again. And so forth. Eventually you end up with late-stage WoW and DDO. How'd that RNG cycle work out for DDO, and for you, good sir "I'm impervious to the pull of RNG and therefore everyone else should be too!" Xenich? Still enjoying your game?

As greater and greater RNG is introduced into the game, even players who would normally be resistant to its pull begin to succumb. Witness Val's testimony in this very thread. Players who are highly resistant begin dropping from the game in disgust at the direction it takes. As the subscribing player-base dwindles, the game must focus more and more on RNG to continue securing funding. Everything goes to ****.

I will agree that comically silly RNG is somewhat acceptable with firm guardrails in place. WoW came closest with things like Runeblade of Baron Rivendare, which had a horrendous drop rate that was (as you were saying) obviously intended to make it a cool memory point/show-off for players, rather than a standard farming item. But there were no guardrails, so people still did it. They still ran Stratholme thousands of times for that shiny piece of loot that they'd be benching within ten levels anyways. Or, for a somewhat lesser version of that, witness Val's testimony in this very thread.

Again, RNG is gambling, is a vice. You play with it at your peril, and you indulge it to your destruction.

wait why did you disagree react me saying it was a gambling addiction then

[Xenich]

I don't even know how to approach this because it is ******** on so many levels.

First, the point of a sub is pay for access to a service, these things cover operating costs and the like and expansions cover the development of the product.

Gambling is betting money in hopes of getting a higher return on the money bet.

Gaming RNG systems are based on statistical odds of chance, often combined with strategic leveraging of such. If you play an RPG, you are leveraging your development against the odds within an encounter.

RNG as a loot mechanic is just another layer of the RPG concept. In fact, what do you think DMs do when you go to look at that dragons stash after you slay it? They roll a dice to see what is rewarded.

Yet somehow you ******* have twisted a sub + RNG loot mechanic to = gambling addiction.

Seriously, you have to be trolling now as if I were this ******* stupid, I would end myself.

You're missing the point of being against RNG loot. Maybe Vergil is too, but I think he's just not explicating it well. He can feel free to correct me. TLDR; RNG is a vice, its introduction to MMOs inevitably corrupts both the devs/dev cycle and the playerbase, and even small amounts of RNG (used as a spice) must have firm and ruthless guardrails in place to prevent it from overtaking the entire game. It should never form the primary basis for progression, of either content or gear.

► Longer Explanation

When you add RNG into your game you also add a "pull" into a certain, degenerate, pattern of behavior. The behavior is an addiction to the hamster wheel. It's an addiction that causes players to spend money out of their means, to devote time they shouldn't devote, and in extreme cases to completely wreck their lives. The power of the pull is directly proportional to the amount and effect of the RNG in the game. Less RNG, less pull to degeneracy. More RNG, greater pull. RNG incentivizes these behaviors to a greater or lesser extent. RNG is a vice.

The standard apologetic for RNG in games (especially MMOs) is, "it's player choice. If they can't help themselves they shouldn't do it, and if they do it they're just ******* and deserve (insert X nasty consequence here)!". The moral problems with this stance are paramount and should be obvious. Yet I understand that most people simply don't have a solid moral foundation from which to judge this design paradigm negatively. So, setting aside moral considerations, practically speaking it also corrupts the devs and their dev cycle, and either corrupts or drives away players that are more resistant to RNG as vice.

More RNG introduces massively more studio wealth. Therefore the devs are incentivized to pump the gas on it. Greater RNG introduces greater degeneracy, which pumps more money into the studio. So the devs up the ante again. And so forth. Eventually you end up with late-stage WoW and DDO. How'd that RNG cycle work out for DDO, and for you, good sir "I'm impervious to the pull of RNG and therefore everyone else should be too!" Xenich? Still enjoying your game?

As greater and greater RNG is introduced into the game, even players who would normally be resistant to its pull begin to succumb. Witness Val's testimony in this very thread. Players who are highly resistant begin dropping from the game in disgust at the direction it takes. As the subscribing player-base dwindles, the game must focus more and more on RNG to continue securing funding. Everything goes to ****.

I will agree that comically silly RNG is somewhat acceptable with firm guardrails in place. WoW came closest with things like Runeblade of Baron Rivendare, which had a horrendous drop rate that was (as you were saying) obviously intended to make it a cool memory point/show-off for players, rather than a standard farming item. But there were no guardrails, so people still did it. They still ran Stratholme thousands of times for that shiny piece of loot that they'd be benching within ten levels anyways. Or, for a somewhat lesser version of that, witness Val's testimony in this very thread.

Again, RNG is gambling, is a vice. You play with it at your peril, and you indulge it to your destruction.

wait why did you disagree react me saying it was a gambling addiction then

You said liking RNG games is a "gambling addiction" behavior and like your claim about gambling, it is ignorant of the reason some people do it.

Ever play craps? Cards? Or even 21? There is a strategy to it and the "enjoyment" is the process of that understanding and play. Those who are "gambling addicted" are often obsessed with the "winning" rather than the play.

In RNG games, there is an enjoyment not in the "win", but in the anticipation of it. In EQ, most of the game as the strategy in getting there, setting up, etc... and then camping the named to see if the named popped, and if it did, what might drop from it.

Only the obsessed would camp a mob knowing that the chance of it dropping anything was improbable.

There was a mob called Raster for the monk epic, he was ridiculously rare and some monks would spend weeks and months camping it. I thought it was stupid and a waste of time, but when our group was heading around that area, we would pass through that area to see if he might be up. The chance of it was fun, but it was never expected. It was even more exciting when he did happen to be up one time when we were coming through. I didn't perm camp him, I didn't spend days or weeks sitting excessively in the same place, I got lucky playing the game as I always did, and I thought it was a fun experience to actually catch him up.

How is that an addiction? I wasted no effort, did not play excessive, etc... which is not the behavior of a "gambling addict".

[Stack of Turtles]

You said liking RNG games is a "gambling addiction" behavior and like your claim about gambling, it is ignorant of the reason some people do it.

Ever play craps? Cards? Or even 21? There is a strategy to it and the "enjoyment" is the process of that understanding and play.

Sorry, but if you think there's any strategy to gambling that the house don't already anticipate and control, you're a gambling addict.

[Xenich]

You said liking RNG games is a "gambling addiction" behavior and like your claim about gambling, it is ignorant of the reason some people do it.

Ever play craps? Cards? Or even 21? There is a strategy to it and the "enjoyment" is the process of that understanding and play.

Sorry, but if you think there's any strategy to gambling that the house don't already anticipate and control, you're a gambling addict.

I never said the odds weren't in favor of the house generally, but there is still a strategy in playing various gambling games where you can leverage certain bets to "improve" winning.

This is why some gamblers who know the systems will get banned in certain casinos, especially in games like blackjack with limited decks (ie counting cards).

There is no "guarantee" and really no sure win, after all they are games of chance, but for instance, games like Craps or 21, you can leverage the odds betting certain areas/times and if you are conservative, don't push stupid betting and the like, you can have a long night playing it and walk away without blowing tons of money and you might even come out ahead.

I don't gamble very often, maybe 3-4 times in my life, but I knew the odds, understood the games, stuck to the games I could leverage (no slots or similar bad odds games), gave myself a cutoff and had a good time. I would say that I actually came out ahead over all my time gambling ever.

I worked a dollar craps table one night, played all night and walked away with 3k when I was done. Other times I played all night, broke even. I think my worst time was spending all night and walking away down 50 bucks, for a full night of entertainment, free drinks and fully comped on my food.

But yeah, I am a gambling addict!

You are ********.

[Stack of Turtles]

I never said the odds weren't in favor of the house generally, but there is still a strategy in playing various gambling games where you can leverage certain bets to "improve" winning.

This is why some gamblers who know the systems will get banned in certain casinos, especially in games like blackjack with limited decks (ie counting cards).

There is no "guarantee" and really no sure win, after all they are games of chance, but for instance, games like Craps or 21, you can leverage the odds betting certain areas/times and if you are conservative, don't push stupid betting and the like, you can have a long night playing it and walk away without blowing tons of money and you might even come out ahead.

I don't gamble very often, maybe 3-4 times in my life, but I knew the odds, understood the games, stuck to the games I could leverage (no slots or similar bad odds games), gave myself a cutoff and had a good time. I would say that I actually came out ahead over all my time gambling ever.

I worked a dollar craps table one night, played all night and walked away with 3k when I was done. Other times I played all night, broke even. I think my worst time was spending all night and walking away down 50 bucks, for a full night of entertainment, free drinks and fully comped on my food.

But yeah, I am a gambling addict!

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

Yeah, I consider this a gambling addiction. If you're having fun gambling, that's insane and unhealthy. You may have it under control... for now. But you contribute to the kind of culture that enables gambling addictions, nevertheless.

[Kalarion]

wait why did you disagree react me saying it was a gambling addiction then

I wasn't disagreeing it's a gambling addiction, I was disagreeing the idea that gambling is not fun and never can be. It's precisely because it is fun to most people that gambling systems are so dangerous. The dopamine hit/excitement from "beating the odds", or "playing the odds" is what pulls people into the loop.

[Vergil]

Do casinos make you pay just to enter them?

[WhiteShark]

I don't think RNG and gambling tap into the same desire. Actual gambling has never appealed to me, and I find it insane that casinos are so popular, particularly slot machines, the most degenerate sort of gambling. Nevertheless, if I imagine, "You must kill this boss ten times to get this cool item," versus, "On average, you will have to kill this boss ten times to get this cool item, but it may be more or less," the latter is far more interesting. Assuming the gameplay itself is enjoyable, I see no intrinsic problem with that sort of RNG, though I do think drop rates should be kept within reasonable limits.

[Xenich]

I never said the odds weren't in favor of the house generally, but there is still a strategy in playing various gambling games where you can leverage certain bets to "improve" winning.

This is why some gamblers who know the systems will get banned in certain casinos, especially in games like blackjack with limited decks (ie counting cards).

There is no "guarantee" and really no sure win, after all they are games of chance, but for instance, games like Craps or 21, you can leverage the odds betting certain areas/times and if you are conservative, don't push stupid betting and the like, you can have a long night playing it and walk away without blowing tons of money and you might even come out ahead.

I don't gamble very often, maybe 3-4 times in my life, but I knew the odds, understood the games, stuck to the games I could leverage (no slots or similar bad odds games), gave myself a cutoff and had a good time. I would say that I actually came out ahead over all my time gambling ever.

I worked a dollar craps table one night, played all night and walked away with 3k when I was done. Other times I played all night, broke even. I think my worst time was spending all night and walking away down 50 bucks, for a full night of entertainment, free drinks and fully comped on my food.

But yeah, I am a gambling addict!

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

Yeah, I consider this a gambling addiction. If you're having fun gambling, that's insane and unhealthy. You may have it under control... for now. But you contribute to the kind of culture that enables gambling addictions, nevertheless.

wait why did you disagree react me saying it was a gambling addiction then

I wasn't disagreeing it's a gambling addiction, I was disagreeing the idea that gambling is not fun and never can be. It's precisely because it is fun to most people that gambling systems are so dangerous. The dopamine hit/excitement from "beating the odds", or "playing the odds" is what pulls people into the loop.

The level of pretentiousness in both of your positions, it is beyond measure. You have no clue why people like things they do, what causes them interest, and what drives them, but you have established some standard to proclaim yourself correct.

Simply because I found gambling certain games interesting in their mechanics, I enjoy statistics, and found the experience interesting in leveraging odds in play, I am addicted? That is the level of buffonry that calls someone who enjoys any activity an "adict in waiting" and wreaks of psychological pseudoscience logic.

Lets take this to another level...

RNG systems are statistical chance. AD&D and most pen and paper games are games of chance, gambling. They use dice, they are gambling.... Most video games use statistical odds as a means to establish things like combat or other various mechanics.

If you play many board games, they use dice or elements of chance in their play. If you play Magic the Gathering or any other type of similar game, they use RNG (ie shuffling a deck) as a means of statistical odds.

How about food, if you enjoy food past the simple means of eating and moving on, well.. you are an addict who has self control.

If you enjoy work/exercise for the feeling you get when are finished, you are a drug addict chasing the dopamine high.

The list goes on, and everything becomes "addiction", because for a real addict, everything is an addiction.

So apparently both of you are addicts then because you enjoy any type of activity, or are you "above it all" in your pretentious nature because you prefer gaming systems that do not have RNG?

Your logic is invalid and pretty absurd.

[Xenich]

I don't think RNG and gambling tap into the same desire. Actual gambling has never appealed to me, and I find it insane that casinos are so popular, particularly slot machines, the most degenerate sort of gambling. Nevertheless, if I imagine, "You must kill this boss ten times to get this cool item," versus, "On average, you will have to kill this boss ten times to get this cool item, but it may be more or less," the latter is far more interesting. Assuming the gameplay itself is enjoyable, I see no intrinsic problem with that sort of RNG, though I do think drop rates should be kept within reasonable limits.

The problem with their position is they are taking obsession and trying to blame it on an activity when the key problem is not the activity, but the individuals unhealthy ability to deal with various activities.

As long as there is something that brings enjoyment, there will always be those who lack self control and obsess. This is a mental problem of the individual, a lack of self control, an inability for that person to function at a normal level.

It is why the ******** "autistic" type spent enormous amounts of time trying to beat that 007 game to finish it under a certain time limit. It is why people obsess over collecting an abundance of money, or seek any other activity to levels of absurdity for lack of self control.

They have always existed, and they themselves are the problems, regardless if certain activities stimulate them more or less. For every activity someone will point to as a problem for people, I can point to some person who does an activity they think is normal, but does it to a level of obsession.

I find a lot of mechanics in modern game play to be mind numbing, simplistic, etc... because I see the end result (like reading a book I already read) and it holds no interest and becomes a simple widget based means of play. It is why token systems, or various reward systems that measure out a direct goal, requirements, etc... and say "do this 500000 times" and you get a big prize as just an exercise of futility.

Taking the logic of those arguing "gambling addiction" (who completely ignore the definition), those who spend enormous hours chasing those sprites have some form of repetitious coveting collection addiction.

: a compulsive, chronic, physiological or psychological need for a habit-forming substance, behavior, or activity having harmful physical, psychological, or social effects and typically causing well-defined symptoms (such as anxiety, irritability, tremors, or nausea) upon withdrawal or abstinence : the state of being addicted
alcohol addiction
an addiction to prescription painkillers
drug addictions
gambling addiction

RNG's are just chance. Only a complete moron, a fool, a person with an addictive personality would ignore statistical odds, then chase a reward of that nature through legitimate focus. Those who are not such see the type of reward for what it is, simply an extremely rare chance and not something to be concerned about.

As you said, RNG rewards placed in a practical range is realistic, but my point is that the "extreme" rare ones are there not for people to focus on obtaining, but as a surprise reward while they are playing the game normally.

To claim they are "bad" because some people can't control themselves is as I said, is excusing the responsibility of the individual, which apparently seems to be a theme in this society these days.

[ArcaneLurker]

Do casinos make you pay just to enter them?

Just like a ******* hooah

[Kalarion]

I never said the odds weren't in favor of the house generally, but there is still a strategy in playing various gambling games where you can leverage certain bets to "improve" winning.

This is why some gamblers who know the systems will get banned in certain casinos, especially in games like blackjack with limited decks (ie counting cards).

There is no "guarantee" and really no sure win, after all they are games of chance, but for instance, games like Craps or 21, you can leverage the odds betting certain areas/times and if you are conservative, don't push stupid betting and the like, you can have a long night playing it and walk away without blowing tons of money and you might even come out ahead.

I don't gamble very often, maybe 3-4 times in my life, but I knew the odds, understood the games, stuck to the games I could leverage (no slots or similar bad odds games), gave myself a cutoff and had a good time. I would say that I actually came out ahead over all my time gambling ever.

I worked a dollar craps table one night, played all night and walked away with 3k when I was done. Other times I played all night, broke even. I think my worst time was spending all night and walking away down 50 bucks, for a full night of entertainment, free drinks and fully comped on my food.

But yeah, I am a gambling addict!

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

Yeah, I consider this a gambling addiction. If you're having fun gambling, that's insane and unhealthy. You may have it under control... for now. But you contribute to the kind of culture that enables gambling addictions, nevertheless.

wait why did you disagree react me saying it was a gambling addiction then

I wasn't disagreeing it's a gambling addiction, I was disagreeing the idea that gambling is not fun and never can be. It's precisely because it is fun to most people that gambling systems are so dangerous. The dopamine hit/excitement from "beating the odds", or "playing the odds" is what pulls people into the loop.

The level of pretentiousness in both of your positions, it is beyond measure. You have no clue why people like things they do, what causes them interest, and what drives them, but you have established some standard to proclaim yourself correct.

Simply because I found gambling certain games interesting in their mechanics, I enjoy statistics, and found the experience interesting in leveraging odds in play, I am addicted? That is the level of buffonry that calls someone who enjoys any activity an "adict in waiting" and wreaks of psychological pseudoscience logic.

Lets take this to another level...

RNG systems are statistical chance. AD&D and most pen and paper games are games of chance, gambling. They use dice, they are gambling.... Most video games use statistical odds as a means to establish things like combat or other various mechanics.

If you play many board games, they use dice or elements of chance in their play. If you play Magic the Gathering or any other type of similar game, they use RNG (ie shuffling a deck) as a means of statistical odds.

How about food, if you enjoy food past the simple means of eating and moving on, well.. you are an addict who has self control.

If you enjoy work/exercise for the feeling you get when are finished, you are a drug addict chasing the dopamine high.

The list goes on, and everything becomes "addiction", because for a real addict, everything is an addiction.

So apparently both of you are addicts then because you enjoy any type of activity, or are you "above it all" in your pretentious nature because you prefer gaming systems that do not have RNG?

Your logic is invalid and pretty absurd.

You fool. I point out the dangers and practical problems with RNG-heavy systems, and all you can come up with is a false fixation on the idea I accused you of being a gambling addict? Pathetic. I have nothing else to say to you on this subject.

[Xenich]

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

Yeah, I consider this a gambling addiction. If you're having fun gambling, that's insane and unhealthy. You may have it under control... for now. But you contribute to the kind of culture that enables gambling addictions, nevertheless.

I wasn't disagreeing it's a gambling addiction, I was disagreeing the idea that gambling is not fun and never can be. It's precisely because it is fun to most people that gambling systems are so dangerous. The dopamine hit/excitement from "beating the odds", or "playing the odds" is what pulls people into the loop.

The level of pretentiousness in both of your positions, it is beyond measure. You have no clue why people like things they do, what causes them interest, and what drives them, but you have established some standard to proclaim yourself correct.

Simply because I found gambling certain games interesting in their mechanics, I enjoy statistics, and found the experience interesting in leveraging odds in play, I am addicted? That is the level of buffonry that calls someone who enjoys any activity an "adict in waiting" and wreaks of psychological pseudoscience logic.

Lets take this to another level...

RNG systems are statistical chance. AD&D and most pen and paper games are games of chance, gambling. They use dice, they are gambling.... Most video games use statistical odds as a means to establish things like combat or other various mechanics.

If you play many board games, they use dice or elements of chance in their play. If you play Magic the Gathering or any other type of similar game, they use RNG (ie shuffling a deck) as a means of statistical odds.

How about food, if you enjoy food past the simple means of eating and moving on, well.. you are an addict who has self control.

If you enjoy work/exercise for the feeling you get when are finished, you are a drug addict chasing the dopamine high.

The list goes on, and everything becomes "addiction", because for a real addict, everything is an addiction.

So apparently both of you are addicts then because you enjoy any type of activity, or are you "above it all" in your pretentious nature because you prefer gaming systems that do not have RNG?

Your logic is invalid and pretty absurd.

You fool. I point out the dangers and practical problems with RNG-heavy systems, and all you can come up with is a false fixation on the idea I accused you of being a gambling addict? Pathetic. I have nothing else to say to you on this subject.

The systems are not the problem, the people are... as I fully reasoned.

By your logic, everything is a danger, and if everything is a danger, your point is absurd.

Oh and by the way, you weren't disagreeing with him specifically calling me a gambling addict for my position... which his position was that of a ******.

[Vergil]

Oh and by the way, you weren't disagreeing with him specifically calling me a gambling addict for my position... which his position was that of a ******.

Lol you pay someone a monthly fee just to have the opportunity to gamble for the chance to experience content

[Xenich]

Oh and by the way, you weren't disagreeing with him specifically calling me a gambling addict for my position... which his position was that of a ******.

Lol you pay someone a monthly fee just to have the opportunity to gamble for the chance to experience content

So you aren't a fan of RPG systems I see.

[Vergil]

Oh and by the way, you weren't disagreeing with him specifically calling me a gambling addict for my position... which his position was that of a ******.

Lol you pay someone a monthly fee just to have the opportunity to gamble for the chance to experience content

So you aren't a fan of RPG systems I see.

Give me 15 dollars and I'll give you a chance to receive a response.