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Dungeon Thread: What Makes a Good Dungeon?

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Dungeon Thread: What Makes a Good Dungeon?

Post by Humbaba »

Is it this?:

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That was a joke. Laugh now.

I'll go right ahead and mention Durlag's Tower before any of you dopes do, because at this point we all know what makes it a fantastic dungeon. To me it's the perfect blueprint of how to make one. Good dungeons tell stories or give you the hints to piece it together.

It doesn't need to tell the story of the dungeon itself, it can also just be the setting of a story. Take the Ineluctable Prison from Wrathfinder for example, the best dungeon of the modern age. You get the lore of the place but the adventure is about busting your friend out of there and witnessing an internal power struggle for control of the prison (or you don't, depending) and find some interesting inmates with cool quests. That dungeon tells several stories in fact.

PST's "dungeons" barely qualify as such but boy do they tell stories and that's why they're great. Who can forget the "Don't trust the skull" moment? Or getting mazed and finding your journal made from your own skin and bones?

Bad dungeons are those that don't tell a story. They may be rooted in the context of the world in question and have a certain reputation, which is often enough to be honest but then you go inside the dungeon and it's just really unremarkable. I remember how godawful the dungeons in Tyranny were, not only because they all look the same but because they didn't engage you narratively at all. They have lore and history but once inside all you do is fight wisps and do a shape puzzle at the end. One dungeon attempts to tell a story; there's a dying dude and he wants you to find his fadda's sooard (or smth I don't remember). You then find it in 2 minutes, return it to him and then he dies. Riveting stuff.

Mechanically, you need to find loot. Good **** too. Stuff that would warrant being lost or hidden for centuries and then dug up. If you don't leave the place with at least one new useful item, something's gone wrong.
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Post by wndrbr »

God bless Todd

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Post by Emphyrio »

dungeons serve different purposes in different games.
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Post by Tweed »

Can't have a dungeon without dung.
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Post by Lich »

Dung luncheon
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Favorite dungeons are ones that are otherworldly, hollow-earth style caves.
Are these 'dungeons' though? Is the Underdark a dungeon?
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Post by Humbaba »

From the geniuses that brought you "What's and RPG?", here's "What's a dungeon?"

A dungeon is a building or an otherwise shut off area from the rest of the overworld map and requires a different mode of navigation. They often feature traps, puzzles and more difficult than average combat encounters. Towns are not dungeons, because they are not cut off from the overworld, do not require the player to adjust his manner of navigation, feature no traps and usually no enemy encounters at all. This rule is subject to exceptions.

The Underdark is an overworld despite being located below sea level, same goes for similarly expansive cave systems. The beholder caves for example are dungeons though, because they are shut off from the rest of the map, and featuring difficult enemies and traps.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:35
From the geniuses that brought you "What's and RPG?", here's "What's a dungeon?"

A dungeon is a building or an otherwise shut off area from the rest of the overworld map and requires a different mode of navigation. They often feature traps, puzzles and more difficult than average combat encounters. Towns are not dungeons, because they are not cut off from the overworld, do not require the player to adjust his manner of navigation, feature no traps and usually no enemy encounters at all. This rule is subject to exceptions.

The Underdark is an overworld despite being located below sea level, same goes for similarly expansive cave systems. The beholder caves for example are dungeons though, because they are shut off from the rest of the map, and featuring difficult enemies and traps.
The underdark isn't an overworld tho.
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Post by Emphyrio »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:35
The Underdark is an overworld despite being located below sea level, same goes for similarly expansive cave systems.
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Post by Humbaba »

The Underdark is an overworld.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:40
The Underdark is an overworld.
It's an underworld. You know, like in Ultima Underworld.
Which was also considered to be a dungeon.
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Post by Emphyrio »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:40
The Underdark is an overworld.
if we're talking about bg2 then even by your own jewed definition it's not. It's shut off from the rest of the game, has difficult combats even in the "main" cave area. Drowville is less a town and more another cave where the monsters aren't automatically hostile. The underdark is all one big dungeon with a hub in the middle.

I don't even know what you mean by it needing "different mode of navigation", that's not a thing in most rpgs.
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Post by Gregz »

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If I'm playing a treasure grinder like ZAngband or Diablo I, that's exactly how I want the game to be structured.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Emphyrio wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 14:46
I don't even know what you mean by it needing "different mode of navigation",
Presumably he's referring to things like early Ultima, but you're right, it's not common at all.
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Post by Humbaba »

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:46
Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:40
The Underdark is an overworld.
It's an underworld. You know, like in Ultima Underworld.
Which was also considered to be a dungeon.
Mechanically speaking it's an overworld, I thought this much was obvious.
Emphyrio wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 14:46
Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 12:40
The Underdark is an overworld.
if we're talking about bg2 then even by your own jewed definition it's not. It's shut off from the rest of the game, has difficult combats even in the "main" cave area. Drowville is less a town and more another cave where the monsters aren't automatically hostile. The underdark is all one big dungeon with a hub in the middle.

I don't even know what you mean by it needing "different mode of navigation", that's not a thing in most rpgs.
No idea how **** factor into this, Liberal.

The Underdark is an overworld because it contains towns. Dungeons don't contain towns, overworlds do. There is no main cave are, that's something you made up.

Drowtown is a town and not a cave just because it's located underground. If you wanna call the Underdark a dungeon then you'd have to consider Athkatla a dungeon as well.
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Post by Emphyrio »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:34
There is no main cave are, that's something you made up.
The area that all the other areas are connected to.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:34
Drowtown is a town and not a cave just because it's located underground. If you wanna call the Underdark a dungeon then you'd have to consider Athkatla a dungeon as well.
Yes.

https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09 ... alism.html
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Post by Emphyrio »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:34
Dungeons don't contain towns, overworlds do.
What about dungeons that have towns in them though
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Post by Emphyrio »

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:45
Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:34
Drowtown is a town and not a cave just because it's located underground. If you wanna call the Underdark a dungeon then you'd have to consider Athkatla a dungeon as well.
Yes.

https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09 ... alism.html
What does this have to do with Athkatla
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Post by Lich »

Dungeons should be mostly dark, narrow, labyrinthine and randomized, with occasional open and/or bright and/or handmade areas. Specifics depend on the context.
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Post by Humbaba »

Emphyrio wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:41
Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:34
There is no main cave are, that's something you made up.
The area that all the other areas are connected to.
Image
That's just the first map, I guess Candlekeep is the main area of BG1 as well then.
Emphyrio wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:48
Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 15:34
Dungeons don't contain towns, overworlds do.
What about dungeons that have towns in them though
Such as?
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Post by Emphyrio »

Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 16:08
That's just the first map, I guess Candlekeep is the main area of BG1 as well then.
The "first map"... of the overworld?

This is why I said your definition is jewish. Black is white. Words don't mean anything as soon as it's inconvenient.
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Town
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

I struggle to see how in a game like e.g., World of Xeen that a town is functionally different from a dungeon, beyond perhaps providing a few services not found in a dungeon.
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Post by KnightoftheWind »

Tomb Raider has the best dungeons.
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Post by Emphyrio »

KnightoftheWind wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 16:33
Tomb Raider has the best dungeons.
They're mostly sparse and boring with puzzles laid around for no good reason, but the setting certainly has the benefit of not being overused like medieval and post apoc dungeons.

I wonder why there has been no RPG with a premise like Tomb Raider.

A free tabletop RPG was just released https://tombraiderblog.crystald.com/en- ... l-release/
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Post by Gregz »

rusty_shackleford wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 16:25
I struggle to see how in a game like e.g., World of Xeen that a town is functionally different from a dungeon, beyond perhaps providing a few services not found in a dungeon.
It's not, and that design coincidence is a legacy from the very first days of cRPGs. It's very memory efficient to reuse all of the same structures.
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Post by Tweed »

I only explore donjons.
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Post by Humbaba »

Emphyrio wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 16:13
Humbaba wrote: ↑ June 22nd, 2023, 16:08
That's just the first map, I guess Candlekeep is the main area of BG1 as well then.
The "first map"... of the overworld?

This is why I said your definition is jewish. Black is white. Words don't mean anything as soon as it's inconvenient.
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Town
The overworld is divided into maps yes what's so hard about that Liberal? Is that too jewish for you?

"Towns" in dungeoncrawlers like nethack are at best an exception to the rule or some sort of hybrid.
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Post by Tweed »

Dungeon Master's dungeon doesn't really tell a story and it's still one of the best blobbers in the history of the universe.