Mass Effect series.

[rusty_shackleford]

I didn't mind the reapear plot too much, in ME1 at least. The whole "ancient prophecy, looming evil" thing was ok, and having to explore, investigate and gather information throughout my travels to find out the scale of the threat, I found interesting. It just completely dropped the ball in #2, and I have yet to even play #3. They clearly had a good start, but just couldn't carry it on.

ME1 should have ended the reaper plot. The entire point was they'd have to now move at regular speed to get there, which was supposed to be slow. Suddenly, reapers move at the speed of the plot.

[maidenhaver]

Yeah, that's what I mean by a draw. The Reapers are still in deep space, but life prevails. I'd just write it where the Citadel's destroyed, the Mass network crashes, so galactic civ is broken into fiefs, and everyone's kind of doing what they want. Spectres are the only real law in their space.

[Lhynn]

I didn't mind the reapear plot too much, in ME1 at least. The whole "ancient prophecy, looming evil" thing was ok, and having to explore, investigate and gather information throughout my travels to find out the scale of the threat, I found interesting. It just completely dropped the ball in #2, and I have yet to even play #3. They clearly had a good start, but just couldn't carry it on.

ME1 should have ended the reaper plot. The entire point was they'd have to now move at regular speed to get there, which was supposed to be slow. Suddenly, reapers move at the speed of the plot.

Yep, it should have been a "hundreds of years down the line" sort of deal. Which is how I choose to view it.

2 and 3 didnt happen. With the tech they got from the reaper they killed, they would be prepared when they did get there, like 20 generations down the line.

[Magick]

I was really disappointed in the Asari ship in the ME1 battle lol. They could have done a LOT more with that and the other ships.

The Normandy zooming around and shooting some stuff was cool (though again could have done more), but WTF at that Asari piece of **** ship?
Apparently much got shut down by the reaper, but surely once de-activated, they should be fighting again?

I think they could have done more with some space battle scenes in this game. Considering space warfare is very much a thing then, and humans apparently even impressed the Turians with their carrier ships, yet do we ever see these?

[J1M]

ME2 was enjoyable, but let's be honest—the plot didn't make any sense and ultimately didn't contribute to the overall story. I suspect the ME3 plot felt rushed because ME2 didn't advance the narrative, forcing them to squeeze the story of two games into one.

One has to wonder exactly how the **** ME2's plot came to be. It's funny how so many people **** on ME1 for being the most clunky and outdated, yet despite all that, it had a far more enjoyable, sensible story.

Mass Effect 2 reeks of a game that was entirely made up of whiteboard ideas that they quickly had to slap a story around. Oh we KILL the protagonist in the first scene! Oh there's a suicide mission where ANYONE could die! You're part of a faction that operates outside of the law! etc etc
If I recall correctly multiple devs have come out and said the game was basically built around the suicide mission concept which kind of creates a problem when all your characters have to be expendable.

Casey and other Bioware devs were open with what happened during Mass Effect 2 as part of the marketing for the third one. Basically, they thought a suicide mission was a great idea and for a while Shepard was the one who did it near the end of the game but after revisions the already created sections about reviving his body were lifted and shifted to the start of the game. At one point they had you playing as Legion collecting Shepard's armor scattered in the Normandy wreck.

This is a somewhat rare case of us not needing to guess what happened due to the amount of press content that was created pertaining to the "crafting" of the trilogy.

[J1M]

I didn't mind the reapear plot too much, in ME1 at least. The whole "ancient prophecy, looming evil" thing was ok, and having to explore, investigate and gather information throughout my travels to find out the scale of the threat, I found interesting. It just completely dropped the ball in #2, and I have yet to even play #3. They clearly had a good start, but just couldn't carry it on.

ME1 should have ended the reaper plot. The entire point was they'd have to now move at regular speed to get there, which was supposed to be slow. Suddenly, reapers move at the speed of the plot.

Glad to see more people agreeing with this sentiment. The reapers as the only main antagonist makes the galaxy feel small.

[rusty_shackleford]

I didn't mind the reapear plot too much, in ME1 at least. The whole "ancient prophecy, looming evil" thing was ok, and having to explore, investigate and gather information throughout my travels to find out the scale of the threat, I found interesting. It just completely dropped the ball in #2, and I have yet to even play #3. They clearly had a good start, but just couldn't carry it on.

ME1 should have ended the reaper plot. The entire point was they'd have to now move at regular speed to get there, which was supposed to be slow. Suddenly, reapers move at the speed of the plot.

The over-correction for this is just as hilariously bad, btw.

From the codex entry on reapers in ME3:
"The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period."
As per usual, writers are fuckin' tards and despite wearing "I HEART SCIENCE!!!!" shirts, have absolutely zero concept of scale.

This means they'd go from the "Arcturus Stream" cluster to Earth in about a day. "Arcturus Stream" cluster is based on a real stellar stream with a real Arcturus star, so we can estimate this and extrapolate.
Now, this is an approximation of the ME galaxy maps:


Look at where the arcturus stream cluster is. Now look down from there, to the Viper Nebula. That's where the ME2 DLC takes place to destroy the gate. That was supposed to set the reapers back what was it, 6 months?
They'd get to earth in days. Moving at that speed, they wouldn't have even needed the relays at all.

How fast do you think the reapers are moving? Remember, 30 light years in a 24 hour period!
It's more than 10,000 times the speed of light.

[Classix]

@Classix

Good mix. 7:57 was my favorite. "Armin Van Buuren Presents Gaia - Stellar"

[J1M]

Was Origins the only DA game worth playing? Have it installed, just haven’t gotten around to it

Even though a lot of us hate Mass Effect 2 and/or 3, they're not even comparable to DA2 onwards. The good news is that DAO is a completely self-contained story, unlike ME1.

What do you mean Mass Effect is not a self contained story? The conclusion is that the enemy may return in a billion years.

[rusty_shackleford]

Was Origins the only DA game worth playing? Have it installed, just haven’t gotten around to it

Even though a lot of us hate Mass Effect 2 and/or 3, they're not even comparable to DA2 onwards. The good news is that DAO is a completely self-contained story, unlike ME1.

What do you mean Mass Effect is not a self contained story? The conclusion is that the enemy may return in a billion years.

I know they've said it was originally designed as a trilogy, but the first game is certainly meant to be standalone. If it was meant to be a trilogy by the time of ME1's development, it had to have been quite late into it.
Anyone know the earliest date when they first said it was designed as a trilogy?

[Luckmann]

Even though a lot of us hate Mass Effect 2 and/or 3, they're not even comparable to DA2 onwards. The good news is that DAO is a completely self-contained story, unlike ME1.

What do you mean Mass Effect is not a self contained story? The conclusion is that the enemy may return in a billion years.

I know they've said it was originally designed as a trilogy, but the first game is certainly meant to be standalone. If it was meant to be a trilogy by the time of ME1's development, it had to have been quite late into it.
Anyone know the earliest date when they first said it was designed as a trilogy?

I don't remember any exact dates, and this is certainly post-ME1, but the promise was that they were going to make ME their "cinematic storytelling" action-style RPG series, while they wanted to focus on more classic gameplay and adventure stories with Dragon Age. This promise was of course immediately broken the second EA took over and they shoveled DA2 out the door.

I don't think ME1 was ever conceived as a trilogy from the get-go, but I think the hope was fairly early on that it was going to be an enduring series, which is also why they set it up the way they did, with obvious sequel bait. But I also think that there's tell-tale signs that it wasn't planned as specifically a trilogy until ME2 was in development. So I understand people that feel like ME1 isn't exactly self-contained, but I also think that you're right in that it wasn't pre-planned to have a sequel in the same way they knew that they were making ME3 when ME2 shipped, for example.

[rusty_shackleford]

Anyone know the earliest date when they first said it was designed as a trilogy?

Earliest references I can find are around the time of ME1's release. It doesn't seem to be in any of the pre-release material.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

What do you mean Mass Effect is not a self contained story? The conclusion is that the enemy may return in a billion years.

I know they've said it was originally designed as a trilogy, but the first game is certainly meant to be standalone. If it was meant to be a trilogy by the time of ME1's development, it had to have been quite late into it.
Anyone know the earliest date when they first said it was designed as a trilogy?

I don't remember any exact dates, and this is certainly post-ME1, but the promise was that they were going to make ME their "cinematic storytelling" action-style RPG series, while they wanted to focus on more classic gameplay and adventure stories with Dragon Age. This promise was of course immediately broken the second EA took over and they shoveled DA2 out the door.

I don't think ME1 was ever conceived as a trilogy from the get-go, but I think the hope was fairly early on that it was going to be an enduring series, which is also why they set it up the way they did, with obvious sequel bait. But I also think that there's tell-tale signs that it wasn't planned as specifically a trilogy until ME2 was in development. So I understand people that feel like ME1 isn't exactly self-contained, but I also think that you're right in that it wasn't pre-planned to have a sequel in the same way they knew that they were making ME3 when ME2 shipped, for example.

Sometimes I wonder about a “what if” scenario where BioWare remained independent and not be sold to EA. Would mass effect be a trilogy or just a stand alone adventure.

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't think ME1 was ever conceived as a trilogy from the get-go,

The reason I have trouble believing it is because game development is very uncertain. At the time it was conceived, their most recent title(or releasing soon) would have been Jade Empire, not exactly a best-seller, iirc being one of their worst performing games. Bioware was essentially "bought out" during this time period by a private equity fund(headed by a former EA executive no less), their future was uncertain.

---

Also, I'm not sure if I agree with your EA characterization. Bioware has always gotten preferential treatment from EA compared to basically any other studio. I assume it has to do with Canadian subsidies.
Bioware was acquired by EA in 2007, prior to Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins.

People point at the 12-16 months deadline given to them by EA… but DA2 was originally supposed to be an expansion pack — Gaider revealed this a year or two ago. It makes a lot more sense in that context.

[rusty_shackleford]

Sometimes I wonder about a “what if” scenario where BioWare remained independent and not be sold to EA. Would mass effect be a trilogy or just a stand alone adventure.

Bioware was not independent when EA acquired them.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Sometimes I wonder about a “what if” scenario where BioWare remained independent and not be sold to EA. Would mass effect be a trilogy or just a stand alone adventure.

Bioware was not independent when EA acquired them.

Interesting didn’t know that. Thought they have some private investors but independent.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

I don't think ME1 was ever conceived as a trilogy from the get-go,

The reason I have trouble believing it is because game development is very uncertain. At the time it was conceived, their most recent title(or releasing soon) would have been Jade Empire, not exactly a best-seller, iirc being one of their worst performing games. Bioware was essentially "bought out" during this time period by a private equity fund(headed by a former EA executive no less), their future was uncertain.

---

Also, I'm not sure if I agree with your EA characterization. Bioware has always gotten preferential treatment from EA compared to basically any other studio. I assume it has to do with Canadian subsidies.
Bioware was acquired by EA in 2007, prior to Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins.

People point at the 12-16 months deadline given to them by EA… but DA2 was originally supposed to be an expansion pack — Gaider revealed this a year or two ago. It makes a lot more sense in that context.

I remember the BioWare founders said that EA give them enough **** to hang themselves.

https://www.vg247.com/ea-gives-you-enou ... re-founder

[J1M]

What do you mean Mass Effect is not a self contained story? The conclusion is that the enemy may return in a billion years.

I know they've said it was originally designed as a trilogy, but the first game is certainly meant to be standalone. If it was meant to be a trilogy by the time of ME1's development, it had to have been quite late into it.
Anyone know the earliest date when they first said it was designed as a trilogy?

I don't remember any exact dates, and this is certainly post-ME1, but the promise was that they were going to make ME their "cinematic storytelling" action-style RPG series, while they wanted to focus on more classic gameplay and adventure stories with Dragon Age. This promise was of course immediately broken the second EA took over and they shoveled DA2 out the door.

I don't think ME1 was ever conceived as a trilogy from the get-go, but I think the hope was fairly early on that it was going to be an enduring series, which is also why they set it up the way they did, with obvious sequel bait. But I also think that there's tell-tale signs that it wasn't planned as specifically a trilogy until ME2 was in development. So I understand people that feel like ME1 isn't exactly self-contained, but I also think that you're right in that it wasn't pre-planned to have a sequel in the same way they knew that they were making ME3 when ME2 shipped, for example.

It was conceived as a trilogy, remember this was part of their strategy to own IP instead of making money for Hasbro, but the "plans" for Mass Effect 2 was a paragraph, and Mass Effect 3 was a sentence.

[rusty_shackleford]

There's a bunch of plot threads that never get followed up on, most notably the dark energy stuff.
Also, biotics was itself called 'dark energy' when ME1 was in development. You can see it in the early pre-release material.

[fkirenicus]

I remember the BioWare founders said that EA give them enough **** to hang themselves.

https://www.vg247.com/ea-gives-you-enou ... re-founder

It is incredibly sad to see the company that gave us BG1 & 2, NWN, and DA:O reduced to the extremely sorry state they have been basically since 2011. But it's been straight downhill on full speed since about 2014 I think.

[rusty_shackleford]

It is incredibly sad to see the company that gave us BG1 & 2, NWN, and DA:O reduced to the extremely sorry state they have been basically since 2011. But it's been straight downhill on full speed since about 2014 I think.

The most important keystone of western liberalism is the idea that everyone is equal and therefore everyone is a replaceable cog. We're just seeing them putting their theory to the test.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

There's a bunch of plot threads that never get followed up on, most notably the dark energy stuff.
Also, biotics was itself called 'dark energy' when ME1 was in development. You can see it in the early pre-release material.

Didn’t the dark matter plot got scrapped because there was a massive leak that spoiled Mass Effect 3 story?

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

It is incredibly sad to see the company that gave us BG1 & 2, NWN, and DA:O reduced to the extremely sorry state they have been basically since 2011. But it's been straight downhill on full speed since about 2014 I think.

The most important keystone of western liberalism is the idea that everyone is equal and therefore everyone is a replaceable cog. We're just seeing them putting their theory to the test.

That’s an insane view that goes against common sense and basic reality.

[fkirenicus]

The most important keystone of western liberalism is the idea that everyone is equal and therefore everyone is a replaceable cog. We're just seeing them putting their theory to the test.

True, and yes, one might say there is some poetic justice about it.
But I still think it is sad. I remember fondly how awesome we found BG1 - exploration of the maps being some of the coolest things of all (that's why I still think BG1 is somewhat better than BG2 to this day).

[rusty_shackleford]

There's a bunch of plot threads that never get followed up on, most notably the dark energy stuff.
Also, biotics was itself called 'dark energy' when ME1 was in development. You can see it in the early pre-release material.

Didn’t the dark matter plot got scrapped because there was a massive leak that spoiled Mass Effect 3 story?

Yes, and no. It's not the same plot as originally intended.
Anything that has the reapers present in the galaxy was definitely not intended. IIRC, the reapers had already been trapped in dark space for decades by the time of ME1 because the protheans altered the keepers and therefore the gate to the citadel was not opened. This is obviously a massive plothole, because if they were close enough to get to the galaxy to use a mass effect gate as seen in ME2's DLC, then they could have… just done that.

To be clear, I mean they were trapped for decades after they were supposed to begin their purge. They had no reason to not just begin traveling to the galaxy unless it was incredibly far away.

[rusty_shackleford]

IIRC, the reapers had already been trapped in dark space for decades by the time of ME1 because the protheans altered the keepers and therefore the gate to the citadel was not opened.

https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Keeper
Wiki seems to imply it was much longer than decades. Basically, the entire plot is whack.

However, once an organic species has settled on the Citadel and reached the required level of technological advancement, the Reapers' current vanguard, a single Reaper left behind to monitor the situation, sends a signal to the Citadel, which in turn signals the keepers, compelling them to activate the Citadel relay to dark space, and begin the process of genocide. The Protheans succeeded in altering the Citadel's signal so that the keepers ignored it, though too late to save the Protheans themselves from extinction at the hands of the Reapers. The keepers have changed and evolved so they only respond to the Citadel itself; they are now no longer under Reaper control and pose no threat to anyone.

[rusty_shackleford]

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Relevant to the discussion at hand:

[Vergil]

I don't think ME1 was ever conceived as a trilogy from the get-go,

The reason I have trouble believing it is because game development is very uncertain. At the time it was conceived, their most recent title(or releasing soon) would have been Jade Empire, not exactly a best-seller, iirc being one of their worst performing games. Bioware was essentially "bought out" during this time period by a private equity fund(headed by a former EA executive no less), their future was uncertain.

---

Also, I'm not sure if I agree with your EA characterization. Bioware has always gotten preferential treatment from EA compared to basically any other studio. I assume it has to do with Canadian subsidies.
Bioware was acquired by EA in 2007, prior to Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins.

People point at the 12-16 months deadline given to them by EA… but DA2 was originally supposed to be an expansion pack — Gaider revealed this a year or two ago. It makes a lot more sense in that context.

I remember the BioWare founders said that EA give them enough **** to hang themselves.

https://www.vg247.com/ea-gives-you-enou ... re-founder

Devs do love to shrug their shoulders and blame publishers for everything

[J1M]

There's a bunch of plot threads that never get followed up on, most notably the dark energy stuff.
Also, biotics was itself called 'dark energy' when ME1 was in development. You can see it in the early pre-release material.

Didn’t the dark matter plot got scrapped because there was a massive leak that spoiled Mass Effect 3 story?

It's more of a "you made this? I made this" situation. The writer that did the Mass Effect world building was sidelined.

[logincrash]

Remember how in ME1 a letting a woman to decide for her child was a Paragon action and forcing her to vax the kid was the Renegade action?
Did the quest stay the same in the demaster? Or did they take a hatchet to it because current BioWare is all in favour of forcing people to ruin their bodies?