Gary Gygax thread

[rusty_shackleford]

[rusty_shackleford]

https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09 ... alism.html

The intention behind Gygaxian Naturalism is to paint a picture of a "real" world, which is to say, a world that exists for reasons other than purely gaming ones. The implication is that monsters have lives of their own and thus go about their business doing various things until they encounter the player characters. Exactly what they do is described by reference to game mechanics, whether it be the numbers of non-combatants in a lair or spell-like abilities that help the monster do whatever it naturally does when it's not facing off against an adventuring party.

A consequence of Gygaxian Naturalism is that it grounds D&D a bit more in a pseudo-reality. I don't mean to imply that it's realistic in any meaningful sense, only that its fantasy follows "natural" laws of a sort, much in the way that, for example, I know that there are squirrels and raccoons and rabbits in my neighborhood who go about their business when I'm not seeing them in my yard or chasing them away from my recycling bins. That's one reason why AD&D has stats for so many kinds of "ordinary" animals: you can't build a "real" world without stats for sheep and cows and horses and such, because you never know when the PCs might need to kill one.

Games that lack this fall in two directions: Either they become much more like a fairytale with no grounding, or they become overly sterile — a collection of ideas with no collective whole, created piecemeal. You can see this in many cRPGs: Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp. Games that have made race/species & sex merely a cosmetic fall into the former.

The later Ultima games and games such as Ultima Underworld are obvious counterexamples.

[aeternalis]

Games that lack this fall in two directions: Either they become much more like a fairytale with no grounding, or they become overly sterile — a collection of ideas with no collective whole, created piecemeal. You can see this in many cRPGs: Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp. Games that have made race/species & sex merely a cosmetic fall into the former.

The later Ultima games and games such as Ultima Underworld are obvious counterexamples.

I think it's okay to let the game become more like an "ungrounded" fairytale if you're consciously deciding to go in that direction. In that case, it's probably more likely to be going in a "thematic/symbolic" direction. There needs to be some sort of grounding, an "internal consistency", even if the world as presented appears implausible. Planescape comes immediately to my mind (of course, lol storyfag) because it's quite internally consistent; it just plays by different rules.

I think the sterility "option" is obviously to be avoided at all costs; in fact, it feels like a non-option, like letting everything fall to the whims of bureaucracy... such games feel like they were just bashed together by committee with no clear creative direction, which is what I personally see in the current state of AAA and with tabletop games like D&D 5e.

I don't have an opinion on Pillars in particular. The story and world seemed like they had promise, but the gameplay and systems felt sterile as heck, and RTwP didn't help, so it didn't hold my attention. Maybe wrong place/wrong time for me as a player. I agree about Ultima, Ultima 7 in particular nailed that Gygaxian naturalism.

[Tweed]

I think it's okay to let the game become more like an "ungrounded" fairytale if you're consciously deciding to go in that direction. In that case, it's probably more likely to be going in a "thematic/symbolic" direction. There needs to be some sort of grounding, an "internal consistency", even if the world as presented appears implausible. Planescape comes immediately to my mind (of course, lol storyfag) because it's quite internally consistent; it just plays by different rules.

I think the sterility "option" is obviously to be avoided at all costs; in fact, it feels like a non-option, like letting everything fall to the whims of bureaucracy... such games feel like they were just bashed together by committee with no clear creative direction, which is what I personally see in the current state of AAA and with tabletop games like D&D 5e.

I don't have an opinion on Pillars in particular. The story and world seemed like they had promise, but the gameplay and systems felt sterile as heck, and RTwP didn't help, so it didn't hold my attention. Maybe wrong place/wrong time for me as a player. I agree about Ultima, Ultima 7 in particular nailed that Gygaxian naturalism.

Yeah, too bad about the combat.

Pillars is completely sterile and spends a good deal of its time trying not to be DND or Baldur's Gate and does it in the most obvious and stupidest of ways with all their "not-creatures" like Xaurips, Ghuls, and Fampyrs. Along with other funny names like Ducs and Biawics. The only interesting species in their list of totally not DND monsters are the not-illithid spider things. Potentially interesting things are never given their due, the game claims you're going insane and suffering from lack of sleep, but you never see any evidence of this other than some crappy ghosts, dreams, and flashbacks.

The big reveal at the end has to be the weakest baby fart in the history of writing and its obvious that the writers couldn't even be arsed to think contextually within their own lore. I seem to recall Fenstermaker complaining about how people saw the world as nihilistic. People see the world as nihilistic because the writers and developers never gave the player any reason to give a **** about it, by the time the game was nearing its end I couldn't have cared less about the fate of the Dyrwood or my companions or really anything else other than killing big bad just because the game told me to do it.

[Ranselknulf]

I watched parts of a documentary years ago that said Gary Gygax was a giga-chad who threw cocaine sex party D&D games or some **** like that.

I don't remember the narrative arc of the documentary, but I think it was something about how Gary Gigax was a bad steward of D&D and it was a good thing that WOTC purchased it from him.

Fast forward to today, I'm not sure which would have been better. D&D being owned by a cocaine sex party fiend, or the woke stazi penning thousands of gender ***** story arcs.

[rusty_shackleford]

I believe this is the first published material written by Gygax — a letter to the editor complaining, stating he will not renew his subscription. Very Gygaxian.
https://archive.org/details/Fantasy_Sci ... 5/mode/2up

[Acrux]

Interesting page. There's a letter there from James Blish complaining about the phrase "science fantasy", which also sounds very typical for him.

[Klerik]

The idea of "fantasy" or "myth" is an outdated catagorization because even the most fanciful and abstract fiction is based off of some aspect of reality that follows some sort of ruleset. Videogames in their illuminated form as just different definitions of reality creating a pre-selected dynamo of variables.

[WhiteShark]

The idea of "fantasy" or "myth" is an outdated catagorization because even the most fanciful and abstract fiction is based off of some aspect of reality that follows some sort of ruleset.

But myth is exactly this. Myth has always been an explanation for reality, not something separate from it.

[Klerik]

Indeed, that is a new awareness. Not the typical materialist notion that was accepted when I was in my younger years.

[aeternalis]

But myth is exactly this. Myth has always been an explanation for reality, not something separate from it.

Indeed, that is a new awareness. Not the typical materialist notion that was accepted when I was in my younger years.

You two are on some big-brain thoughts. Please accept a brofist from me because I can't give one on this forum.

[Emphyrio]

The idea of "fantasy" or "myth" is an outdated catagorization because even the most fanciful and abstract fiction is based off of some aspect of reality that follows some sort of ruleset.

The idea of "realist" fiction is also outdated, as realism exists in a fantasy world where there is nothing beyond mundane human understanding.

[Emphyrio]

How come guys who claim to be Gygax fans still play D&D instead of Lejendary Adventures?

[rusty_shackleford]

How come guys who claim to be Gygax fans still play D&D instead of Lejendary Adventures?

Probably because it's impossible to acquire LA material without pirating due to Gail Gygax pulling everything he worked on from Troll Lord Games.

[Luckmann]

Fast forward to today, I'm not sure which would have been better. D&D being owned by a cocaine sex party fiend, or the woke stazi penning thousands of gender ***** story arcs.

Definitely Gygax. Every time I see him or learn anything new about him I like him more.

[rusty_shackleford]

And again, I am not trying to be a contrarian, but if "RPG" means "character classes and levels" that is incorrect. That means "D&D" and D&D is not the only thing that defines it, or else every videogame would have to be Pong or have Pong-like elements.

I think you're mixing up the intent of D&D with the stated rules of D&D. I strongly suspect none of you have read this before(and barely anyone probably has), it's (to the best of my knowledge) the first time Gygax acknowledges D&D as a "role-playing game". It's scanned form copies of Europa #9 in response to another writer, from 1975 I believe. You'll want to open them in new tabs as they're quite large, so I haven't embedded them as images as to not slow the page down.
https://f.rpghq.org/1GU1TA320Krt.avif?n ... opa_1.avif
https://f.rpghq.org/eXUg23Sfvq4A.avif?n ... opa_2.avif
https://f.rpghq.org/AkGVpTecezlt.avif?n ... opa_3.avif

(These were rendered at 300DPI, I'm not an expert on this )

Specifically, I zero in on the: "constant challenge […] never-ending exercise in problem solving"

---

It's also why I suspect games that have the so-called "immersive sim" properties tend to be among the most well remembered RPGs — Deus Ex is the highest rated RPG on GOG as of writing, Bethesda games are somewhere on the 'immersive sim' spectrum, Larian games, Arkane games, so on and so forth — as they arguably embody the genre like nothing else.

[rusty_shackleford]

"Fantasy Wargaming a la Tolkien", published in multiple magazines, earliest date claims to be 1973.

[Xenich]

I watched parts of a documentary years ago that said Gary Gygax was a giga-chad who threw cocaine sex party D&D games or some **** like that.

I don't remember the narrative arc of the documentary, but I think it was something about how Gary Gigax was a bad steward of D&D and it was a good thing that WOTC purchased it from him.

Fast forward to today, I'm not sure which would have been better. D&D being owned by a cocaine sex party fiend, or the woke stazi penning thousands of gender ***** story arcs.

How much do you think those rumors are true though? Remember, Gygax was not liked by a "certain" crowd and was attacked many times over his comments on various issues defending the attacks on his game.

[Vergil]

Gaygax lol

[Nooneatall]

Gaygax lol

**** I came here to make that pun and you beat me to it.

[Xenich]

I see we have some Beavis and Butthead fans.

[Tweed]

Gaygax lol

**** I came here to make that pun and you beat me to it.

You're out of your element when it comes to Vergil and homosexuality.

[UltraFan123]

Gygaxian Naturalism is goated both for storytelling and world-building if you ask me.

[fkirenicus]

I see we have some Beavis and Butthead fans.

That was probably the best and most accurate description of the twain in question.

[fkirenicus]

Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp.

I have to agree completely on this. I've tried started playing Pillars... 3 times, and each time I find myself "why am I playing this" after about reaching the 1st village.
I must admit though that I am beginning to wonder if I should scrap FR because even EG himself now has more or less destroyed it, and embrace Oerth by Gygax & co. instead.

[UltraFan123]

Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp.

I have to agree completely on this. I've tried started playing Pillars... 3 times, and each time I find myself "why am I playing this" after about reaching the 1st village.
I must admit though that I am beginning to wonder if I should scrap FR because even EG himself now has more or less destroyed it, and embrace Oerth by Gygax & co. instead.

I do genuinely believe that Greyhawk is criminally underrated, alongside other underexplored DnD settings like Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun, and the like.

Eberron in particular was done dirty, I believe, since instead of actually putting effort to spark interest in this amazing fantasy world, WotC instead simply extirpated the "interesting" parts of the setting - the warforged race and artificer class - and slapped them into the Forgotten Realms.

But seeing how DnD is right now, I'm kind of glad that Forgotten Realms is the only one being dragged through the mud since WotC can't further ruin the settings they don't even bother to remember that exist. lol

[Xenich]

Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp.

I have to agree completely on this. I've tried started playing Pillars... 3 times, and each time I find myself "why am I playing this" after about reaching the 1st village.
I must admit though that I am beginning to wonder if I should scrap FR because even EG himself now has more or less destroyed it, and embrace Oerth by Gygax & co. instead.

I do genuinely believe that Greyhawk is criminally underrated, alongside other underexplored DnD settings like Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun, and the like.

Eberron in particular was done dirty, I believe, since instead of actually putting effort to spark interest in this amazing fantasy world, WotC instead simply extirpated the "interesting" parts of the setting - the warforged race and artificer class - and slapped them into the Forgotten Realms.

But seeing how DnD is right now, I'm kind of glad that Forgotten Realms is the only one being dragged through the mud since WotC can't further ruin the settings they don't even bother to remember that exist. lol

DDO is primarily in Eberron btw.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Pillars of Eternity completely lacks this and falls into the sterile camp.

I have to agree completely on this. I've tried started playing Pillars... 3 times, and each time I find myself "why am I playing this" after about reaching the 1st village.
I must admit though that I am beginning to wonder if I should scrap FR because even EG himself now has more or less destroyed it, and embrace Oerth by Gygax & co. instead.

I do genuinely believe that Greyhawk is criminally underrated, alongside other underexplored DnD settings like Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun, and the like.

Eberron in particular was done dirty, I believe, since instead of actually putting effort to spark interest in this amazing fantasy world, WotC instead simply extirpated the "interesting" parts of the setting - the warforged race and artificer class - and slapped them into the Forgotten Realms.

But seeing how DnD is right now, I'm kind of glad that Forgotten Realms is the only one being dragged through the mud since WotC can't further ruin the settings they don't even bother to remember that exist. lol

Better to end on a high note then be used as walking skin with no semblance of the original creation vision. I hope one day that someone will take inspiration Dark Sun and their own spiritual successor to the series.

Agree on POE being boring which is surprising since I usually like obsidian games.

[rusty_shackleford]

[Silvanus]

Gene Wolfe is a high tier recommendation, far superior to the usual genre fiction.