Brain/talent drain in game devs, how to stop it?

[rusty_shackleford]

most of the reason for all the various microtransactions is in the long development time itself
that is, the people who want "longer development times!" and "less crunch!" are directly responsible for lootboxes, cosmetic DLC, "head start", etc.,

[Decline]

Pay better wages and get rid of that DEI ******** so intelligent people with talent will start to bother again?

[rusty_shackleford]

Pay better wages and get rid of that DEI ******** so intelligent people with talent will start to bother again?

soyer gets paid more than $250k a year to post dumb leftist **** on twitter

[CSM-101]

Pay better wages and get rid of that DEI ******** so intelligent people with talent will start to bother again?

soyer gets paid more than $250k a year to post dumb leftist **** on twitter

But they live in San Francisco where $250k is only just above the poverty line.

[Decline]

Pay better wages and get rid of that DEI ******** so intelligent people with talent will start to bother again?

soyer gets paid more than $250k a year to post dumb leftist **** on twitter

That's why I used the word AND

But still, the wages for the average programmer on gayms is lower than elsewhere, ignoring certain 'Rockstars'
And you want to attract talent. Even if you cut all the DEI ******** tomorrow why bother?

[Orvas Dren]

Pay better wages and get rid of that DEI ******** so intelligent people with talent will start to bother again?

soyer gets paid more than $250k a year to post dumb leftist **** on twitter

That's why I used the word AND

But still, the wages for the average programmer on gayms is lower than elsewhere, ignoring certain 'Rockstars'
And you want to attract talent. Even if you cut all the DEI ******** tomorrow why bother?

not sure why people are disagreeing with you, its objectively true. Gaming produces an absurd amount of money now yet game devs are treated terribly and paid less than lots of other programmers.

[rusty_shackleford]

. Gaming produces an absurd amount of money now

Most games do not produce an "absurd amount of money". A small portion of games(read: mobile garbage, gacha games, etc.,) are making the overwhelming majority.
Something like 80% of EA's revenue comes from 'live services' AKA their sportsball game lootboxes(gacha for westerners)

[Decline]

. Gaming produces an absurd amount of money now

Most games do not produce an "absurd amount of money". A small portion of games(read: mobile garbage, gacha games, etc.,) are making the overwhelming majority.
Something like 80% of EA's revenue comes from 'live services' AKA their sportsball game lootboxes(gacha for westerners)

If they don't make good money they cannot pay for talent.

[J1M]

Game developers have no respect for themselves. That's why they are treated poorly and that's why the best people stay out of the industry.

Pay parity would not be enough to secure the best programmers. Job security needs to be there as well.

[rusty_shackleford]

I'd personally have zero interest in working as a code monkey for a game developer, and development teams are too big for people to be wearing multiple hats. Tim Cain was both a designer(gameplay, setting, story, etc.,) and a programmer. That just doesn't happen anymore.
What's the point of working on a game that you can't say you contributed to in a meaningful sense?

[Orvas Dren]

. Gaming produces an absurd amount of money now

Most games do not produce an "absurd amount of money". A small portion of games(read: mobile garbage, gacha games, etc.,) are making the overwhelming majority.
Something like 80% of EA's revenue comes from 'live services' AKA their sportsball game lootboxes(gacha for westerners)

that is still a market size of $250 billion with the average AAA title netting budgets of how much on average?

[rusty_shackleford]

. Gaming produces an absurd amount of money now

Most games do not produce an "absurd amount of money". A small portion of games(read: mobile garbage, gacha games, etc.,) are making the overwhelming majority.
Something like 80% of EA's revenue comes from 'live services' AKA their sportsball game lootboxes(gacha for westerners)

that is still a market size of $250 billion with the average AAA title netting budgets of how much on average?

AAA titles seem to have quite thin profit margins. It took months for Spiderman 2 to be profitable, Horizon Forbidden West seemingly wasn't profitable, etc.,
All it takes is one misstep and your entire studio goes poof.

[Orvas Dren]

Most games do not produce an "absurd amount of money". A small portion of games(read: mobile garbage, gacha games, etc.,) are making the overwhelming majority.
Something like 80% of EA's revenue comes from 'live services' AKA their sportsball game lootboxes(gacha for westerners)

that is still a market size of $250 billion with the average AAA title netting budgets of how much on average?

AAA titles seem to have quite thin profit margins. It took months for Spiderman 2 to be profitable, Horizon Forbidden West seemingly wasn't profitable, etc.,
All it takes is one misstep and your entire studio goes poof.

probably because these games SUCK which is largely due to other problems as well

[rusty_shackleford]

that is still a market size of $250 billion with the average AAA title netting budgets of how much on average?

AAA titles seem to have quite thin profit margins. It took months for Spiderman 2 to be profitable, Horizon Forbidden West seemingly wasn't profitable, etc.,
All it takes is one misstep and your entire studio goes poof.

probably because these games SUCK which is largely due to other problems as well

The EA sports titles suck too, but they print money in comparison.

[edit]
This reminds me of all the video game outlet sites complaining of EA laying off staff despite making profits. Of course they're going to cut staff in areas that are unprofitable, that's how businesses operate. It's not like those divisions are doing R&D or something, they're just unprofitable.

[Decline]

AAA titles seem to have quite thin profit margins. It took months for Spiderman 2 to be profitable, Horizon Forbidden West seemingly wasn't profitable, etc.,
All it takes is one misstep and your entire studio goes poof.

probably because these games SUCK which is largely due to other problems as well

The EA sports titles suck too, but they print money in comparison.

Weird way of spelling successful

[Orvas Dren]

AAA titles seem to have quite thin profit margins. It took months for Spiderman 2 to be profitable, Horizon Forbidden West seemingly wasn't profitable, etc.,
All it takes is one misstep and your entire studio goes poof.

probably because these games SUCK which is largely due to other problems as well

The EA sports titles suck too, but they print money in comparison.

These titles are also lower budget, don't need to change much, and most importantly are largely tied to a brand for sales. This isn't just games like Madden though, BG3 earned over 600 million to a 100 million budget, a little game like Lethal Company made almost entirely by a single 21 year old earned 50-75 million, and kenshi netted 38 million after everything.

The market size is so big that you don't even need to be some AAA gacha game to make an absurd amount of money. This obviously takes more than just well-paid programmers, but if you want longevity and to compete with other sectors with talent, it helps.

[rusty_shackleford]

and most importantly are largely tied to a brand for sales.

EA recently lost the fifa brand and saw no change tho.

This isn't just games like Madden though, BG3 earned over 600 million to a 100 million budget, a little game like Lethal Company made almost entirely by a single 21 year old earned 50-75 million, and kenshi netted 38 million after everything.

Unicorn games, 1-2 a year at best.

Your argument is "everyone should just make one of the best selling games ever made and then we can pay people a lot!"?

The market size is so big that you don't even need to be some AAA gacha game to make an absurd amount of money.

A tiny minority of that is from direct game sales, FYI. The massive majority is from microtransactions.
https://gamedevreports.substack.com/p/v ... ate-of-the

2023 was a record year for Steam. Games worth $9 billion were sold (excluding microtransactions).

[Orvas Dren]

and most importantly are largely tied to a brand for sales.

EA recently lost the fifa brand and saw no change tho.

This isn't just games like Madden though, BG3 earned over 600 million to a 100 million budget, a little game like Lethal Company made almost entirely by a single 21 year old earned 50-75 million, and kenshi netted 38 million after everything.

Unicorn games, 1-2 a year at best.

Your argument is "everyone should just make one of the best selling games ever made and then we can pay people a lot!"?

The market size is so big that you don't even need to be some AAA gacha game to make an absurd amount of money.

A tiny minority of that is from direct game sales, FYI. The massive majority is from microtransactions.
https://gamedevreports.substack.com/p/v ... ate-of-the

2023 was a record year for Steam. Games worth $9 billion were sold (excluding microtransactions).

I could probably name 100 games in the last couple of years that made an absurd amount of money without being on this list. They are not unicorns, like kenshi for example, just because they don't make 600 million. 30 million for a team of a handful of people is still an insane amount and is easier than ever now to obtain. Even if the 9 billion is true (that is steam alone though) that is still a big pot that will only continue to grow.

[rusty_shackleford]

I could probably name 100 games in the last couple of years that made an absurd amount of money without being on this list

Go ahead.
Kenshi released 6 years ago, fyi.

[Stack of Turtles]

I could probably name 100 games in the last couple of years that made an absurd amount of money without being on this list. They are not unicorns, like kenshi for example, just because they don't make 600 million. 30 million for a team of a handful of people is still an insane amount and is easier than ever now to obtain. Even if the 9 billion is true (that is steam alone though) that is still a big pot that will only continue to grow.

I'm not sure you know how money works. I guess that makes sense if you grew up in Soviet Yugoslavia.
You can't pay a dev team out of the $30 million your game might make until after you have that money. You could give them equity, which is how it used to work and is now a broken system, or you could accept capital from an investor who will expect you to show how inclusive your game is, if you can even find any investors anymore. Either way, you won't even attract talent when there isn't talent to attract.

[Rand]

The EA sports titles suck too, but they print money in comparison.

Sports attracts normies/******* and various sorts of *******.
People who are notoriously incapable of discerning actual good things, and also of impulsively wasting money on worthless garbage.
Different audience.

[gerey]

Sports attracts normies/******* and various sorts of *******.

Sportniggers are one of the major contributors to the downfall of gaming. Their degenerate thirsting for ****** **** is what popularized MTX and all other associated cancers. They will pay a premium to collect ***** like a buck breaking Jewish plantation owner did 200 years ago.

Also, all of them are civic nationalists - that alone should warrant their summary execution.

[Kowe]

and most importantly are largely tied to a brand for sales.

EA recently lost the fifa brand and saw no change tho.

This isn't just games like Madden though, BG3 earned over 600 million to a 100 million budget, a little game like Lethal Company made almost entirely by a single 21 year old earned 50-75 million, and kenshi netted 38 million after everything.

Unicorn games, 1-2 a year at best.

Your argument is "everyone should just make one of the best selling games ever made and then we can pay people a lot!"?

The market size is so big that you don't even need to be some AAA gacha game to make an absurd amount of money.

A tiny minority of that is from direct game sales, FYI. The massive majority is from microtransactions.
https://gamedevreports.substack.com/p/v ... ate-of-the

2023 was a record year for Steam. Games worth $9 billion were sold (excluding microtransactions).

How the **** did Starfield earn 235m!? What the hell. Why pay for this slop or even play it ?
The second graph highlights again why the mobile market is such a problem for gaming with how lucrative it is. Those mobile gamers are definitely to blame for a lot of issues with the industry and therefore game development. Why develop something if being uncreative and lazy leads to more profit ? It is even more appalling once one understands coding, 3d modelling and other work, and how they monetize things, and ******* just eat it up.
The next problem is with all the normie trends. In recent times, Marvel and the superhero movies and games. And how some try to make movies out of games.

Devs being fired from the bigger studios is not necessarily bad, if they can build smaller teams and release less costly titles. This does have its own fair share of issues as has been seen with some indie game development. It is still the sounder option.

[Rand]

How the **** did Starfield earn 235m!? What the hell. Why pay for this slop or even play it ?

I got it for free and I still feel ripped off for the time it took to download and play it until I saw that it just kept getting worse.

[rusty_shackleford]

How the **** did Starfield earn 235m!? What the hell. Why pay for this slop or even play it ?

Brand. Same reason Cyberjunk sold a ton of copies, people were expecting a game like their previous title.

[Magick]

and most importantly are largely tied to a brand for sales.

EA recently lost the fifa brand and saw no change tho.

This isn't just games like Madden though, BG3 earned over 600 million to a 100 million budget, a little game like Lethal Company made almost entirely by a single 21 year old earned 50-75 million, and kenshi netted 38 million after everything.

Unicorn games, 1-2 a year at best.

Your argument is "everyone should just make one of the best selling games ever made and then we can pay people a lot!"?

The market size is so big that you don't even need to be some AAA gacha game to make an absurd amount of money.

A tiny minority of that is from direct game sales, FYI. The massive majority is from microtransactions.
https://gamedevreports.substack.com/p/v ... ate-of-the

2023 was a record year for Steam. Games worth $9 billion were sold (excluding microtransactions).

Would love to see that list by profit, rather than revenue.

[Rand]

How the **** did Starfield earn 235m!? What the hell. Why pay for this slop or even play it ?

Brand. Same reason Cyberjunk sold a ton of copies, people were expecting a game like their previous title.

I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 right now.
Unlike Starfield, it's not only not a bad game (it's flawed, but decent and fun), but the tech used is pretty amazingly well done, in the end.
Zero loadscreens except on start, or if you fast travel. Don't fast travel.

[Decline]

How the **** did Starfield earn 235m!? What the hell. Why pay for this slop or even play it ?

Brand. Same reason Cyberjunk sold a ton of copies, people were expecting a game like their previous title.

I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 right now.
Unlike Starfield, it's not only not a bad game, but the tech used is pretty amazingly well done, in the end.
Zero loadscreens except on start, or if you fast travel. Don't fast travel.

Bethesda has huge technical debts that will spill the doom of the company (it already has).
Just look at ESO, at what could've been a badly needed fresh start for the tech stack ended up even worse than the creation engine.
Much like Paradox, Bethesda has demonstrated that they're unable to progress so they're forced to resell buggy reskins of the old games until they go out of business.

[rusty_shackleford]

Brand. Same reason Cyberjunk sold a ton of copies, people were expecting a game like their previous title.

I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 right now.
Unlike Starfield, it's not only not a bad game, but the tech used is pretty amazingly well done, in the end.
Zero loadscreens except on start, or if you fast travel. Don't fast travel.

Bethesda has huge technical debts that will spill the doom of the company (it already has).
Just look at ESO, at what could've been a badly needed fresh start for the tech stack ended up even worse than the creation engine.
Much like Paradox, Bethesda has demonstrated that they're unable to progress so they're forced to resell buggy reskins of the old games until they go out of business.

That is the least of Bethesda's issues.

[Brother Chad]

Pay parity would not be enough to secure the best programmers. Job security needs to be there as well.

Honestly you would have to pay programmers/other talent a hefty premium to make modern games managed by modern gamedevs.

I can only imagine the utter ennui resulting from being hired to make Dustborn or similar ****.