Dark and Darker, the medieval fantasy dungeon extraction game

[ihateindians]

This game and Dungeonborne would be a lot cooler if they didn't have some stapled on PVP component for the streamerfags to blowjob mouth over so clip farming channels can keep up their daily compilations.

Feels like it began as some single player dungeon crawler concept and then the developers became scared they may release something interesting and made a sudden pivot to some ****** Frankenstein monster that was rushed out the door and has weightless combat in 2024 somehow. Garbage.

[Yankee Zulu]

Regarding the PVE only

1) there were numerous attempts to make coop dungeon crawler. I told you about Kings and Heroes which failed. There is Dungeons of Sundaria. Is it even good? There was this DnD licenced Dark Alliance game with Sweet Baby inc involved whuch also failed. There was this Robin Hood inspired coop game which also failed. etc etc.

2) Dark Souls exist. It IS kinda similar to a dungeon crawler with coop involved.

3) The only successful fantasy coop game I can remember is Warhammer Vermintide. 2 is still popular.

If it was that easy everyone would do it.

[rusty_shackleford]

1) there were numerous attempts to make coop dungeon crawler.

There really wasn't.

3) The only successful fantasy coop game I can remember is Warhammer Vermintide. 2 is still popular.

Maybe you've heard of World of Warcraft?

[Yankee Zulu]

1) there were numerous attempts to make coop dungeon crawler.

There really wasn't.

3) The only successful fantasy coop game I can remember is Warhammer Vermintide. 2 is still popular.

Maybe you've heard of World of Warcraft?

Yes, there was. I listed just a few. There was plenty more.

Your favorite WOW is an MMO not a coop dungeon crawler. Do you know the difference?

[Oyster Sauce]

Your favorite WOW is an MMO not a coop dungeon crawler. Do you know the difference?

[rusty_shackleford]

Your favorite WOW is an MMO not a coop dungeon crawler. Do you know the difference?

That makes up probably 80% of the average person's playtime in WoW.

[Yankee Zulu]

Ok. You dont know the difference. Not going to explain it to you.
And btw theres an upcoming dungeon crawler from former WOW devs called FELLOWSHIP. For you and other *******.

[rusty_shackleford]

Ok. You dont know the difference. Not going to explain it to you.
And btw theres an upcoming dungeon crawler from former WOW devs called FELLOWSHIP. For you and other *******.

The art looks like the most generic chinese WoW mobile knockoff so you'd probably like it

[Xenich]

'muh balance' has ruined every single game it has touched

Pretty much.

EQ did a good job of classes on release (aside from broken features in some which caused issues for them such as rogue and functional aspects of Ranger). The hybrid vs primary wars complete screwed up the game.

People whining about "being useless" because they can heal, do light tanking, some dps, have utility... but "I can't tank hard fights!" or "but my DPS doesn't compete with that primary melee class" and the "but my druid spells don't heal as well as a cleric" screwed everything. Eventually hybrids were "balanced" to the point where they were "slighty" behind primary classes, which caused primary classes to whine about being useless.

Honestly, I didn't mind the "buffs" to any specific class, but when they started with "nerfing" to "balance", yeah... ********.

[Brother Michael]

Ok. You dont know the difference. Not going to explain it to you.
And btw theres an upcoming dungeon crawler from former WOW devs called FELLOWSHIP. For you and other *******.

From the Fellowship dev diary:

[ihateindians]

If it was that easy everyone would do it.

TBH if modern game devs didn't feel compelled to forcefuck multiplayer into every game as a main selling point it'd make for way better games as a whole since these sorts of always online, always meant to play with other people games allow a shitload of corners to cut. It's better when multiplayer/co-op is a perk or extension of a strong core game, not the core itself.

Imagine a game like this with the single player experience as its primary focus, proper level design, a sense of exploration and progress while avoiding traps and deadly enemies, static treasure that means something when found, combat that has tons of good feedback, in other words a game with a beginning and end to it with decent polish and quality. Co-op can still exist but it doesn't hijack the entire game and thrust it on you.

Multiplayer-only design leads to trash like these endless gameplay loops and grinds which becomes "this color coded item with generic affixes makes this number go up." It appeals to chimps trying to figure out how to use a rotary phone and need that constant dopamine hit of a new patch/content every month. z00mers fear credits screens.

[Orvas Dren]

Never understood why developers think they can "balance" PvE and PvP together. It doesn't work without one screwing the other.

it honestly works pretty well, no idea why you think this is some law

Just a fact of reality. PvP directs PvE balance and then content is designed around those constraints which usually ends up with every class containing a core design of healing/damage/survivability in some form or another.

PvP requires class to class balancing. PvE only requires class to content balancing (ie if one class is far more powerful in one area than another, it doesn't matter as effective content play is what is important in PvE).


You can have a damage focused class in PvE that has no self or accessible healing outside of another player and it can work well. In PvP this doesn't work well as every class has to have a balancing component to be able to counter each other. Overpowered characters in PvE is fine as what matters is that content is not trivialized and there is a trade off to that design (ie downtime, escape, etc...). Those types of designs allow for complete dominance in PVP and imbalance things.

this isn't really the case with dark and darker

[Xenich]

it honestly works pretty well, no idea why you think this is some law

Just a fact of reality. PvP directs PvE balance and then content is designed around those constraints which usually ends up with every class containing a core design of healing/damage/survivability in some form or another.

PvP requires class to class balancing. PvE only requires class to content balancing (ie if one class is far more powerful in one area than another, it doesn't matter as effective content play is what is important in PvE).


You can have a damage focused class in PvE that has no self or accessible healing outside of another player and it can work well. In PvP this doesn't work well as every class has to have a balancing component to be able to counter each other. Overpowered characters in PvE is fine as what matters is that content is not trivialized and there is a trade off to that design (ie downtime, escape, etc...). Those types of designs allow for complete dominance in PVP and imbalance things.

this isn't really the case with dark and darker

So how is healing handled? Every class can heal, be it spell, potion or ability? Or do some classes have zero healing ability? If so, how do they handle PvP?

If healing is worked into every class, then PvP is having an effect on PvE design and content. Even if healing isn't exactly, but "defense", "shielding", etc... is worked in to balance PVP, that will then have an effect on PvE content as well. Point is, PvP directs PvE design.

[Orvas Dren]

Just a fact of reality. PvP directs PvE balance and then content is designed around those constraints which usually ends up with every class containing a core design of healing/damage/survivability in some form or another.

PvP requires class to class balancing. PvE only requires class to content balancing (ie if one class is far more powerful in one area than another, it doesn't matter as effective content play is what is important in PvE).


You can have a damage focused class in PvE that has no self or accessible healing outside of another player and it can work well. In PvP this doesn't work well as every class has to have a balancing component to be able to counter each other. Overpowered characters in PvE is fine as what matters is that content is not trivialized and there is a trade off to that design (ie downtime, escape, etc...). Those types of designs allow for complete dominance in PVP and imbalance things.

this isn't really the case with dark and darker

So how is healing handled? Every class can heal, be it spell, potion or ability? Or do some classes have zero healing ability? If so, how do they handle PvP?

If healing is worked into every class, then PvP is having an effect on PvE design and content. Even if healing isn't exactly, but "defense", "shielding", etc... is worked in to balance PVP, that will then have an effect on PvE content as well. Point is, PvP directs PvE design.

Everyone can use potions or bandages as everything is tied to items that can all be found in dungeon. Healing pots heal over time though, and bandages can only stop bleeding and heal minor injuries. Resting also heals minor injuries over time, and resting with a campfire can heal all injuries over time. As for skills, you are limited to only two active skills for your class. Wizard, Rogue, and Bard have no healing abilities. Clerics and druids have healing spells. Ranger can sacrifice an ability slot to bring in 3 rations instead. Warlock only has life steal (casting spells sacrifices health). Barbarian has conditional heals when they kill a player (this is usually pretty hard) and fighter has a conditional ability that lets them regain some health if they get a successful kill within a time frame of certain ability's use. All of these besides barb have the same affect in PVP and PVE though so I fail to see the point. Classes are not designed to be balanced to one another and all have pretty different skill thresholds and niches.

[Xenich]

this isn't really the case with dark and darker

So how is healing handled? Every class can heal, be it spell, potion or ability? Or do some classes have zero healing ability? If so, how do they handle PvP?

If healing is worked into every class, then PvP is having an effect on PvE design and content. Even if healing isn't exactly, but "defense", "shielding", etc... is worked in to balance PVP, that will then have an effect on PvE content as well. Point is, PvP directs PvE design.

Everyone can use potions or bandages as everything is tied to items that can all be found in dungeon. Healing pots heal over time though, and bandages can only stop bleeding and heal minor injuries. Resting also heals minor injuries over time, and resting with a campfire can heal all injuries over time. As for skills, you are limited to only two active skills for your class. Wizard, Rogue, and Bard have no healing abilities. Clerics and druids have healing spells. Ranger can sacrifice an ability slot to bring in 3 rations instead. Warlock only has life steal (casting spells sacrifices health). Barbarian has conditional heals when they kill a player (this is usually pretty hard) and fighter has a conditional ability that lets them regain some health if they get a successful kill within a time frame of certain ability's use. All of these besides barb have the same affect in PVP and PVE though so I fail to see the point. Classes are not designed to be balanced to one another and all have pretty different skill thresholds and niches.

You seriously think they didn't design the classes and healing mechanic around them according to each classes abilities and function to balance their play against each other?

The point is that PvP design was first established, PvE was then created within that focus which is constrained by that initial design.

You don't just make a bunch of classes for PvE and then consider the PvP game. It was done PvP first, which is my point... PvP directs PvE game play and design. There are some things that just aren't functional in PvP which is why it is the base template that these games work from.

[Manny V]

all i'm sayin is Dark and Darker is fun

simple as

[Envergence]

all i'm sayin is Dark and Darker is fun

simple as

Manny, you're not allowed to enjoy things other people don't like!!!

[Orvas Dren]

You don't just make a bunch of classes for PvE and then consider the PvP game. It was done PvP first, which is my point... PvP directs PvE game play and design. There are some things that just aren't functional in PvP which is why it is the base template that these games work from.

well even if they did just that, it worked out

[Yankee Zulu]

The more you play this game the more you realize its design issues. Late game is all about movement speed. Thats why warriors do not wear heavy armor and use bows. Wizzards can kite you forever and you will never catch them. Ive seen one wizzard wiping the whole party of 3 many times.

Theres literally nothing you can do against a speedy rogue or a wizard. Fighters can throw some axes but those are quite limited and can be dodged.

Late game turns into a ******* clown fiesta with ranged skirmishes, flying chickens, rats going through doors, etc.

[Hauberk]

Nig and ******

No wonder the game is about home invasions, looting and murder. @YZ's comment above on late game alacrity hammers my point home and then some!

[Yankee Zulu]

I feel like an actual stamina bar could help here. Stamina to spend on either sprint and/or weapon hits/blocking. I watched a game where 2 bards found other players locked up in a small room. Bards were just standing ourside playing music not wanting to go in. And the fuckers inside kept quiet. Its so bad its idiotic.

Same issue with Dungeonborne. Once a melee character gets close he will simply start spamming left click until you die. You can get lifesteal on items and never die in close combat.

[Xenich]

You don't just make a bunch of classes for PvE and then consider the PvP game. It was done PvP first, which is my point... PvP directs PvE game play and design. There are some things that just aren't functional in PvP which is why it is the base template that these games work from.

well even if they did just that, it worked out

Nothing wrong with that, to each their own.

I have a bit of an issue with PvP (not in and of itself) and how it completely screwed up some MMOs of the past because of the point I was making.

If the game is primarily a PvP game from the start, with PvE thrown in as a tool, that is fine and I approach the game differently, but I despise PvE games that decide to have PvP, but then realize the PvE has to be adjusted to fit the PvP and then everything goes to hell.

[Yankee Zulu]

Latest update brought matchmaking. You can now find two other random hobos with a click of a button. This leads to lack of obligations and you can leave the party and the dungeon whenever you see fit and there will be no one to throw **** at you once you are back in the lobby.

[A Chinese opium den]

Wizzards can kite you forever and you will never catch them. Ive seen one wizzard wiping the whole party of 3 many times.

Theres literally nothing you can do against a wizard. Fighters can throw some axes but those are quite limited and can be dodged.

Based. Might pick this game up now.

[Cogemeister]

Ok. You dont know the difference. Not going to explain it to you.
And btw theres an upcoming dungeon crawler from former WOW devs called FELLOWSHIP. For you and other *******.

From the Fellowship dev diary:

Ahh ****, I was looking forward to Fellowship, the concept looked like the fun part of an MMO without all the grind.

[Orvas Dren]

Wizzards can kite you forever and you will never catch them. Ive seen one wizzard wiping the whole party of 3 many times.

Theres literally nothing you can do against a wizard. Fighters can throw some axes but those are quite limited and can be dodged.

Based. Might pick this game up now.

btw wizard is super easy to kill this guy just sucks

[Tag365]

EQ did a good job of classes on release (aside from broken features in some which caused issues for them such as rogue and functional aspects of Ranger). The hybrid vs primary wars complete screwed up the game.

People whining about "being useless" because they can heal, do light tanking, some dps, have utility... but "I can't tank hard fights!" or "but my DPS doesn't compete with that primary melee class" and the "but my druid spells don't heal as well as a cleric" screwed everything. Eventually hybrids were "balanced" to the point where they were "slighty" behind primary classes, which caused primary classes to whine about being useless.

Excuse me for talking about a month old post, but during what era did the balancing acts ruin the game? Was it already occurring during the era that Project99 emulates? Or was it after 2001 that the hybrid vs primary wars started distorting EverQuest into something it wasn't supposed to be?

[Xenich]

EQ did a good job of classes on release (aside from broken features in some which caused issues for them such as rogue and functional aspects of Ranger). The hybrid vs primary wars complete screwed up the game.

People whining about "being useless" because they can heal, do light tanking, some dps, have utility... but "I can't tank hard fights!" or "but my DPS doesn't compete with that primary melee class" and the "but my druid spells don't heal as well as a cleric" screwed everything. Eventually hybrids were "balanced" to the point where they were "slighty" behind primary classes, which caused primary classes to whine about being useless.

Excuse me for talking about a month old post, but during what era did the balancing acts ruin the game? Was it already occurring during the era that Project99 emulates? Or was it after 2001 that the hybrid vs primary wars started distorting EverQuest into something it wasn't supposed to be?

No specific era, unless you consider a specific class and its issues. Class wars began obviously at release with complaints (some legit, some because people didn't understand the concept of hybrid as it was designed in EQ, some who just had "greener" syndrome).

Also, it didn't help when people pigeon holed the roles (ie narrowly classifying classes as Tanks/Heal/DPS) which completely misunderstood the nuances of various classes and such forcing ended up screwing up the design of the class.

What I think really ruined EQ though was Planes of Power with its fast travel, heavy focus on raid players designing the group content around them with numerous zones made for raiders to flag and have exclusive access to group content. This caused a lot of people to move on eventually and their attempts to retain the players with things like The Legacy of Ykesha and LDON was just half assed attempts of trying to keep people looking to WoW (Beta was going around those times). I think the nail in the coffin was Gates of discord which after all the crap of PoPs gating, they release an expansion that the very first access to anything relevant was to require a raid flag to enter and even if you happened to zerg it with a public raid, the content was designed in a way that only top tier raiders could effectively group the content, which was all designed in a way to flag for more raids.

At that point, most people were jumping ship for WoW because it was focusing on group content, not raids.

So basically, what ruined EQ in my opinion was moving away from single group content. EQ's model of contested dungeons works fine with single group areas (providing there is enough content and they don't overload the servers), but it is horrible for raids. EQ was about endurance play with skilled execution. This doesn't work well if you have to have people "on call" 24/7 to log in and rush to an encounter that takes 30-40 very skilled people to defeat (or 72 zerging it) so the game became a place where people who had no responsibilities controlled all the content as they were the ones geared for it and all the content was made for them.

I think Dragons of Norrath was their solution to this issue (large world for groups and had stage progression with instanced raids), and from what I saw (going back and playing it at a later date), it was a very good expansion, but it was too late, WoW took most of the player base.

PoP though was the killer. I remember a lot of non-raiders complaining about the expansion. You also had some classes who were made ridiculously powerful (ie Bards being allowed to kite entire raid zones solo) and the Sony being inept and not understanding how to deal with Bard Song code (Verant had already left).

GoD put the nail in the coffin though. GoD and Omens of war were actually initially a single expansion, but the top guilds like Fires of Heaven with their leader Furor threw massive tantrums at the time demanding that they be catered to or they would take their 100's of zergers to WoW. If those would have been released together, it would have been a good expansion as it covers both group and raid progression, but instead you got the raid portion with GoD to which required very well geared PoP raiders to play (which those top guilds were **** blocking using the stupid flag design of PoP to keep the other guilds from progressing).

What is funny though, is Furor got what he wanted and then left anyway to WoW to **** that game up as well (in fact Tigole worked for Blizzard at the time and he Got Furor hired there) with their push to go to 40 man raids (WoW was initially only going to have a max of 25 man raids for MC and more focused on 10 mans like they had with Strath/Scholomance and a focus on group dungeons).

The interesting thing is that some of the biggest nerfs and fiascos with class balance all happened to be connected to the whiny *** top guild leaders who constantly caused issues with EQ.

[Tag365]

So were there any other good things about EverQuest's golden era that got corrupted later on? It seems from what I've watched of retro-implementation videos of the game they talk about the player characters being far more involved than in later MMORPGs due to various changes in the paradim introduced from World of Warcraft, and other videos disliking that later ones ended up being too solo centric which violated the purpose of the MMO part of the game.

Oh and it seemed like from what you're saying, the so called Holy Trinity of class roles (Tank/DPS/Heal or Support) was an invention of the players that ended up changing MMORPG game structuring later down the line.

[rusty_shackleford]

disliking that later ones ended up being too solo centric which violated the purpose of the MMO part of the game.

This is revisionist history fwiw. There was even an entire class dedicated to soloing(this is the original class description, taken from a P99 screenshot):

---

It would be difficult to list all the ways that EQ was great or why it was superior to WoW. The one thing WoW had over it was instanced dungeons(sorta), something a lot of EQ grognards refuse to admit is far better than just sitting in one room and killing the same mob over and over. Going thru a dungeon with a storyline with friends feels like a real adventure. I could type paragraphs on why competing for mobs is terrible, camping one area sucks, mobs spawning out of the air is far more immersion breaking than instances, etc.,

EQ actually had instanced dungeons before WoW tho in the form of Lost Dungeons of Norrath.

Oh and it seemed like from what you're saying, the so called Holy Trinity of class roles (Tank/DPS/Heal or Support) was an invention of the players that ended up changing MMORPG game structuring later down the line.

EQ didn't have the 'holy trinity' because it had a lot more roles. Same with vanilla WoW to a lesser extent. CC was a role unto itself in both, same deal with various support classes, etc., Hybrids were a much bigger deal, so on and so forth.
The thing I miss the most from early MMO(and RPG) design is probably races actually mattering a lot. And not just in how good your character is, but what gear they can equip, where they can go, who hates them, etc.,

---

Oh, and raids have always been ****. The smaller they've become, the less **** they've gotten. Because raids suck. Xenich is also right about the fast travel thing, it makes worlds feel too small and less memorable.