Xenogears

[Magick]

Anyone else played this? (my avatar iswas the MC's battle sprite)

Similar to FF7 (with slightly shittier graphics) which fans of politics, philosophy, religion/creation and mecha will like.
The MC doesn't even use any weapons (tho other party members do) and just beats monsters to death with his ******* fists/feet. He even fights with martial arts when using his mecha:

► Show Spoiler

The combat has a sort of "combo" system with "deathblows" (think limit breaks that you can use anytime, just by inputting the combo), as well as the standard "magic" and "items" and so on. The combo system / deathblows also transfers to the mechas (gears).
VERY deep story, really delving into philosophy and psychology. Starts off a little "typical" but draws you into the main political plot pretty quick, and you get exploring the world and using the mechas decently quickly too. Some of the supporting chars are a little lacking after their main story points are done, but some are consistently great (Bart, total bro, and a cute redhead female supporting char). Top-tier soundtrack to go with it, too.

The second disc is unfortunately completely unfinished and whizzes through the story elements in a narrative fashion, but it doesn't stop the game as a whole being awesome. I'd LOVE it if they did a re-master (and finished it) but like everything they probably wouldn't be able to help REMAKING it, where they either turn it lame & gay, or fill it with Japanese fever dream elements like the FF7 remakes..

Kinda hard to post much about it without spoilers, but it's an absolutely phenomenal game (if you like 90s squaresoft turn based JRPGs) and I highly rate it, even slightly above FF7/ChronoTrigger, which is saying a lot (for me).

[DDC]

I contend Xenogears has far and away the best plot and characters out of any JRPG. Sometimes the prose and writing isn't the best, but the overall storyline is creative and interesting and Xenogears is the one JRPG that really stuck with me over the years. The only really negative thing I can say about it is that the random encounter rate is out of control, leading to some dungeons that really drag.

I don't have the hatred for Disk 2 that a lot of fans have. Yes, I remember being a bit confused at the tonal shift the first time I played it, and there are several things that would have been nice to see expanded more, but it's also unique in that the plot accelerates at the same time that most JRPGs lose momentum and get bogged down with sidequests and padding, and I was excited to just rush through to see what happened. It's also special in that they managed to finish the story and cram the conclusion to that huge plot into a single self-contained game despite running out of development time/money. It easily could have ended partially complete with a cliffhanger that was never resolved, or split into sequels/DLC (meaning the story would lose momentum while you wait years for it to be finished).

I don't have a lot of confidence that a remake or remaster would recapture the magic. No voice acting and pixellated sprites contributed to the mystique of the game. If less was left to the imagination, it probably wouldn't translate well and there are too many ways for it to go wrong. For example, give Grahf a bad character model or the wrong voice actor and the whole thing is ruined. Could characters like Maria, Margie, and ChuChu even be voice acted in a way that isn't annoying and cringe, or did they work in the original because reducing them to text made them less obtrusive? It's worth noting that Monolith's Xeno games have gotten worse and worse as more and more resources and technology have been devoted to making them.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The Xeno series gets too up its own *** when it comes to the religion and gnosticism and crap. It's at its best when it's focusing on normal stuff.

I'm surprised more turn based JRPGs haven't done deathblows. There is Legend of Dragoon and Utawarerumono, but you're just following the button pressesl laid out for you.

Mechs are awesome. No idea why the Xenoblade games didn't have pilotable mechs.

My favorite theme from Gears:

[Rand]

I find the punchy-kicky games offputting.
There's a reason why humans invented weapons, and they're interesting and cool.
Punching things isn't.

[Magick]

lol well he just literally beats the **** out of them. Besides one character (and one who switches halfway) all other characters use weapons though. One of them is a priest with an entire arsenal of firearms under his habit.
I found it pretty refreshing to have a MC that didn't just use a sword like in every other game.

► Show Spoiler

Otherwise agree with all of the above. The encounter rate is sometimes terrible in some areas (90s JRPG syndrome. Tis why I liked Chrono Trigger so much tbh). And of course a ******* sewer level..
Agreed that it's fantastic that they still finished it even though they were rushed as hell. Full credit to them giving closure to the story.
Shame all the "spiritual successors" just didn't match up, you're right that they disappeared up their own ***, focusing purely on "story" and not trying to make a good "game" that ALSO had a story. I still need to go back and finish Xenosaga 2 at some point, but it just didn't "hook" me the same.
I guess with a remaster they could just fully flesh out and do up the anime cutscenes (which was interesting, too and suited mecha), but not have the rest of the game be fully voiced.

Flight has to be the best track yeah. What a phenominally emotional game! I love "The One Who Is Torn Apart", too. Super mysterious and fits the context at the time..

► Show Spoiler

Still gives me goosebumps..

Had a banging intro cinematic that left me confused as ****, but intrigued, too:

► Show Spoiler

[rusty_shackleford]

I find the punchy-kicky games offputting.
There's a reason why humans invented weapons, and they're interesting and cool.
Punching things isn't.

you use giant robots for combat in xenogears
here, enjoy a 3 hour video

[Magick]

you use giant robots for combat in xenogears
here, enjoy a 3 hour video

► Show Spoiler

MECHS, Rusty. Get it right! But yep!:

► Show Spoiler

That video has massive spoilers of course, but yes it's a great review. Watched that one myself recently and enjoyed reminiscing.
Some of it is a little rose-tinted and the graphics burn your eyes out nowadays, but eh I'm a big fan of this and Shining Force and despite both looking like **** in modern terms, I thoroughly ENJOYED both games. There's a lot I play nowadays and enjoy "bits", but rarely sit back and think "That was ******* GOOD end to end".

Probably helps that I grew up playing it back then, I guess you have fonder memories of such. Plus it was before all the "woke" ******** or any sort of "modern" politics or references besides broad philosophy stuff.

Have to really like classic 90s Squaresoft-style JRPGs to be into it, but if so it's definitely "up there" as a game. So wish they had the time and budget to finish it, but the bean counters chose Final Fantasy instead, blargh. I can understand why though, that one had broader appeal whereas this one is deeper and a little more niche.

[DDC]

Shame all the "spiritual successors" just didn't match up, you're right that they disappeared up their own ***, focusing purely on "story" and not trying to make a good "game" that ALSO had a story. I still need to go back and finish Xenosaga 2 at some point, but it just didn't "hook" me the same.
I guess with a remaster they could just fully flesh out and do up the anime cutscenes (which was interesting, too and suited mecha), but not have the rest of the game be fully voiced.

As far as the successors go, the back half of Xenosaga 3 is a real banger, just about the closest any JRPG has come to matching the excitement of Xenogears (other than maybe Shadow Hearts: Covenant). But you have to get through Xenosaga 1 and 2 to get there, which I thought was worth it. At least Xenosaga 2 is sort of short.

The Xenoblade games got progressively worse. Xenoblade 1 did some things right but suffered from a lack of compelling villains and the story wasn't dark enough. Xenoblade 2 brings in some better villains but is ruined by playing as a goofy 10 year old protagonist. I was looking forward to Xenoblade 3 a lot because of the supposed darker tone, but you play as a group of diversity-squad zoomers with zero personality, and somehow Xenoblade 2 ended up having the more likeable cast. These three games were largely a waste of time.

Xenoblade Chronicles X has by far the worst story (and the whole thing is tied up with an unexplained cliffhanger), but the game has mechs and is tremendously fun in terms of exploration.

[aweigh]

I contend Xenogears has far and away the best plot and characters out of any JRPG. Sometimes the prose and writing isn't the best, but the overall storyline is creative and interesting and Xenogears is the one JRPG that really stuck with me over the years. The only really negative thing I can say about it is that the random encounter rate is out of control, leading to some dungeons that really drag.

I don't have the hatred for Disk 2 that a lot of fans have. Yes, I remember being a bit confused at the tonal shift the first time I played it, and there are several things that would have been nice to see expanded more, but it's also unique in that the plot accelerates at the same time that most JRPGs lose momentum and get bogged down with sidequests and padding, and I was excited to just rush through to see what happened. It's also special in that they managed to finish the story and cram the conclusion to that huge plot into a single self-contained game despite running out of development time/money. It easily could have ended partially complete with a cliffhanger that was never resolved, or split into sequels/DLC (meaning the story would lose momentum while you wait years for it to be finished).

I don't have a lot of confidence that a remake or remaster would recapture the magic. No voice acting and pixellated sprites contributed to the mystique of the game. If less was left to the imagination, it probably wouldn't translate well and there are too many ways for it to go wrong. For example, give Grahf a bad character model or the wrong voice actor and the whole thing is ruined. Could characters like Maria, Margie, and ChuChu even be voice acted in a way that isn't annoying and cringe, or did they work in the original because reducing them to text made them less obtrusive? It's worth noting that Monolith's Xeno games have gotten worse and worse as more and more resources and technology have been devoted to making them.

Mostly agree.

Xenogears is in my all-time top ten list, probably somewhere in the top 5 even.

EDIT: Oh yeah and also the timeless OST for Xenogears is one that stays with you...

[Magick]

As far as the successors go, the back half of Xenosaga 3 is a real banger, just about the closest any JRPG has come to matching the excitement of Xenogears (other than maybe Shadow Hearts: Covenant). But you have to get through Xenosaga 1 and 2 to get there, which I thought was worth it. At least Xenosaga 2 is sort of short.

The Xenoblade games got progressively worse. Xenoblade 1 did some things right but suffered from a lack of compelling villains and the story wasn't dark enough. Xenoblade 2 brings in some better villains but is ruined by playing as a goofy 10 year old protagonist. I was looking forward to Xenoblade 3 a lot because of the supposed darker tone, but you play as a group of diversity-squad zoomers with zero personality, and somehow Xenoblade 2 ended up having the more likeable cast. These three games were largely a waste of time.

Xenoblade Chronicles X has by far the worst story (and the whole thing is tied up with an unexplained cliffhanger), but the game has mechs and is tremendously fun in terms of exploration.

Ooh thanks for this. I might actually get the other parts and finish Xenosaga then, when I can be bothered to get my PS2 out.
Wow it sounds like they've just been going constantly downhill. Then again Square is a shadow of its former self, and we're talking 2024 writing teams so..

@aweigh Fully agree. I'm not usually an "emotional" person but these **** tracks are genuinely moving, especially when experiencing them in-game. So much mysticism and wonder. There's only few I consider truly on par with that. This being one of them:

► Show Spoiler

[bloodedhunter]

Its basically final fantasy but with mecha that don't appear anywhere outside of combat and sometimes world exploration.

My main gripes are with xenosaga just outright not letting you play the game and xenogears does directly tie into episode 3.

► Show Spoiler

Sometimes less is more and the writers clearly didn't understand the concept of "show don't tell". They make KOTOR 2 look like a children's picture book by comparison with just how much random exposition is in every ******* scene when they should be using the medium to demonstrate. An anime adaptation and several VN spinoffs weren't even enough for them to just take a chill pill and let the player play the game for more than 20 seconds at a time.

Also the way the xenosaga games incorporated their codex is the most ******** implementation I have ever seen in a video game. Thank god Mass effect was my first intro to an in game codex and not the hodge podge of xenosaga episode III where it literally locks out at least 2/3rd's of the codex if you don't have a completed save for the first two games on your device.

Its like what if I want to read about what a Turian is? Nope. **** you, go replay Mass effect 1 and 2 on insanity difficulty again. We don't care that it took you the better part of a week.

[KOS-MOS]

I find the punchy-kicky games offputting.
There's a reason why humans invented weapons, and they're interesting and cool.
Punching things isn't.

you use giant robots for combat in xenogears
here, enjoy a 3 hour video

Thank you for the recommendation. This YouTube channel is a real gem. I devoured the 3-hour Xenogears video in one go, even though I know the game thoroughly.

[Gastrick]

It really blew me away when I played it, Xenogears is an amazing game all around, even with disc 2.

[aweigh]

LOVE xenogears, top 5 game for me.

BORED by xenosaga... sorry

LOVE xenoblade 1 and 2 (hated 3). Especially loved Xenoblade 2, the best one IMO besides the spin-off XCX.

[Magick]

It really blew me away when I played it, Xenogears is an amazing game all around, even with disc 2.

Replayed it many times and never get tired. <3
Deep story, gorgeous music, awesome mecha.

[Gastrick]

It really blew me away when I played it, Xenogears is an amazing game all around, even with disc 2.

Replayed it many times and never get tired. <3
Deep story, gorgeous music, awesome mecha.

The characters, world, minigames, epic scenes.
I know the Xenosaga games are considered a spiritual sequel, were they any good?

[Magick]

It really blew me away when I played it, Xenogears is an amazing game all around, even with disc 2.

Replayed it many times and never get tired. <3
Deep story, gorgeous music, awesome mecha.

The characters, world, minigames, epic scenes.
I know the Xenosaga games are considered a spiritual sequel, were they any good?

Unfortunately not. I picked up the second at some point and stopped playing midway.
They re-use a couple of themes and names but that's about it, it really is "spiritual".
The mecha combat just isn't the same, too.

Think Final Fantasy The Spirits Within, but as a game, and the Xenogears equivalent.

[Alberto Pizzaolla]

Xenogears is my favorite game of all time. One of the best written video games out there. The Xeno series as a whole is ******* fantastic.

Xenosaga is a bit rough around the edges, much more so than Gears, but I like it more so for what it was trying to be, rather than what it was.
The Xenoblade games are all great too, and I think they get better with each entry. (Barring X which I never finished as the story didn't compel me.) They're also the most competent as actual video games. Whereas Gears and Saga leave a lot to be desired in the gameplay department.

[Tweed]

Is this another jrpg where you kill god?

[Cipher]

It's good, but it has some very terrible flaws.

Even if we let the Disc 2 shenanigans slide, and we really shouldn't because holy ****, this was Sony movie slop games before they were even a thing, but understanding that the Devs said they just bit more than they could chew and they either released only the 1st Disc and hope for a sequel to finish the story/game or they rushed and butchered what was left in the Disc 2 we have, and they decided the 2nd option instead of hoping for success and a sequel.

The platforming on some dungeons is really annoying and janky. If it wasn't janky it woulnd't be as annoying but it is very janky and makes you waste your time. Half of the cast of characters are basically background the moment they join the party, like really their story is absolutely over and they could have been completely removed from the game and no one would even realize.

It has lofty hopes by including the gnosticism mythos and concepts to make a pastiche with jungian psychology but never really goes beyond.


Having said that, when its good, it is awesome. The music is superb and the combat system is very fun. However, this was the golden age of Squaresoft, when they not only had their flagship IP in Final Fantasy releasing gems like 7 and Tactics, but almost every other game from this era was an absolute banger. And this one is no exception. A very flawed gem, it is absolutely worth the playthrough but on a repeat, having already experienced the twists and the mysteries revealed, the flaws in the writing become painfully more obvious and the dreaded Disc 2 complete shift and "gameplay" (and I am being extremely generous here) take a huge nose dive.

[Magick]

It's good, but it has some very terrible flaws.

Even if we let the Disc 2 shenanigans slide, and we really shouldn't because holy ****, this was Sony movie slop games before they were even a thing, but understanding that the Devs said they just bit more than they could chew and they either released only the 1st Disc and hope for a sequel to finish the story/game or they rushed and butchered what was left in the Disc 2 we have, and they decided the 2nd option instead of hoping for success and a sequel.

The platforming on some dungeons is really annoying and janky. If it wasn't janky it woulnd't be as annoying but it is very janky and makes you waste your time. Half of the cast of characters are basically background the moment they join the party, like really their story is absolutely over and they could have been completely removed from the game and no one would even realize.

It has lofty hopes by including the gnosticism mythos and concepts to make a pastiche with jungian psychology but never really goes beyond.


Having said that, when its good, it is awesome. The music is superb and the combat system is very fun. However, this was the golden age of Squaresoft, when they not only had their flagship IP in Final Fantasy releasing gems like 7 and Tactics, but almost every other game from this era was an absolute banger. And this one is no exception. A very flawed gem, it is absolutely worth the playthrough but on a repeat, having already experienced the twists and the mysteries revealed, the flaws in the writing become painfully more obvious and the dreaded Disc 2 complete shift and "gameplay" (and I am being extremely generous here) take a huge nose dive.

Fully agree.
Disc 2 was because funding was diverted to FF7. Square had a choice between Xeno and FF7 as their flagship, and chose the latter.
They ran out of time / funding and had to just scrabble together what threads of game they'd got created, and wrap it up however they could.
Better than a "to be continued", then that never happening, I guess.

I absolutely love the mecha designs in this, too. I love how they're mostly melee. Most mecha stuff is all about laser guns and ****, whereas Weltall just runs up and beats the **** out of them with martial arts. Shame the kamehameha wasn't more powerful.

It is indeed a shame about the characters, too. They could have done a lot more with them.
One of my absolute fave games is Shining Force 3 and that sort of suffers the same. The characters are there and move the main plot along nicely, but have no individual "growth". Outside of Fei, Elly, Citan and Bart, Xeno's characters pretty much suffer the same. Rico, Esmerelda, Maria and even Billy have their snippets, but it pretty much just "ends" as soon as their little bit is done, and you could just forget that they're there.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Is this another jrpg where you kill god?

Yes.

[Classix]

Played this way back sometime after playing Legend of Legaia. Good music, liked the combo system. Could 'feel' the hits and attacks. "HMMF! HUYA!".

[Magick]

Played this way back sometime after playing Legend of Legaia. Good music, liked the combo system. Could 'feel' the hits and attacks. "HMMF! HUYA!".

Another thing I liked was when you pick up Citan, he's such a ******* beast and you're thinking "why is he on par with / stronger than my main character?" Then it all makes sense later.

[Classix]

Yeah he has some disgusting combos and you're like "why is this nerd in a green smock kicking so much ***?" Then he gets the sword and it's 1300+ dmg combos.

[Classix]

[somerandomdude]

I remember keeping Fei gearless going through the final dungeon because yamekei combos did 10K+ with the power crisis equipped, and he was way faster on foot. He didn't burn any fuel either.

[Magick]

Yeah he has some disgusting combos and you're like "why is this nerd in a green smock kicking so much ***?" Then he gets the sword and it's 1300+ dmg combos.

Yes, exactly lol. AND heals, too.
The magic could have been a bit better. Great effects! (for its time), but not super useful. I never bothered with Elly. I know you can do some MASSIVE damage with specific items, but meh.
Ah well, at least the martial arts and the combos are great. The battling system was more fun and refreshing than just selecting "attack" each time.

[Classix]

Yeah I never got bored with the combat as far as I remember. it was always "Oh yesss.. what else can I unlock/discover."

[Cipher]

It's good, but it has some very terrible flaws.

Even if we let the Disc 2 shenanigans slide, and we really shouldn't because holy ****, this was Sony movie slop games before they were even a thing, but understanding that the Devs said they just bit more than they could chew and they either released only the 1st Disc and hope for a sequel to finish the story/game or they rushed and butchered what was left in the Disc 2 we have, and they decided the 2nd option instead of hoping for success and a sequel.

The platforming on some dungeons is really annoying and janky. If it wasn't janky it woulnd't be as annoying but it is very janky and makes you waste your time. Half of the cast of characters are basically background the moment they join the party, like really their story is absolutely over and they could have been completely removed from the game and no one would even realize.

It has lofty hopes by including the gnosticism mythos and concepts to make a pastiche with jungian psychology but never really goes beyond.


Having said that, when its good, it is awesome. The music is superb and the combat system is very fun. However, this was the golden age of Squaresoft, when they not only had their flagship IP in Final Fantasy releasing gems like 7 and Tactics, but almost every other game from this era was an absolute banger. And this one is no exception. A very flawed gem, it is absolutely worth the playthrough but on a repeat, having already experienced the twists and the mysteries revealed, the flaws in the writing become painfully more obvious and the dreaded Disc 2 complete shift and "gameplay" (and I am being extremely generous here) take a huge nose dive.

Fully agree.
Disc 2 was because funding was diverted to FF7. Square had a choice between Xeno and FF7 as their flagship, and chose the latter.
They ran out of time / funding and had to just scrabble together what threads of game they'd got created, and wrap it up however they could.
Better than a "to be continued", then that never happening, I guess.

I absolutely love the mecha designs in this, too. I love how they're mostly melee. Most mecha stuff is all about laser guns and ****, whereas Weltall just runs up and beats the **** out of them with martial arts. Shame the kamehameha wasn't more powerful.

It is indeed a shame about the characters, too. They could have done a lot more with them.
One of my absolute fave games is Shining Force 3 and that sort of suffers the same. The characters are there and move the main plot along nicely, but have no individual "growth". Outside of Fei, Elly, Citan and Bart, Xeno's characters pretty much suffer the same. Rico, Esmerelda, Maria and even Billy have their snippets, but it pretty much just "ends" as soon as their little bit is done, and you could just forget that they're there.

From what I heard, it wasn't really about the money. The own devs said that they just bit more than they could chew since this was their first project of this scale, so the game/story kept getting feature creep. So, it was more about time than resources. It could be that the devs are saving face for the company since yeah, japanese, but from what I gathered this was more of mishandling of their time and scope instead of truly lack of funds.

And yeah, that syndrome of games that have a character story arc as an NPC but once it joins they disappear really sucks. Same thing happened with Final Fantasy Tactics. Agrias, Mustadio, Meliadoul, Rafa and Malak. All of them disappear from the plot as soon as they join. I guess in that game is because there's permadeath but, it just sucks.