Are Estus Flasks good design?

[rusty_shackleford]

For those of you that live under a rock, 'estus flask' is a mechanic popularized by dork souls that works in tandem with the bonfires. You get a flask that can heal you which has a set number of charges, the charges can be increased over the game, and they can be refilled when resting at a campfire.

One thing I'll put in the estus flask corner is that it's a consumable which sees significant usage, most RPG consumables do not — either because you are saving them for when they're needed, too situationally useful, or just not powerful enough to be worth using. The estus flask mechanic completely removes the first issue by replacing it with something akin to Vancian magic — charges per rest, you are encouraged to use it because you are aware of how plentiful the item is, there is no hidden information.
OTOH, sometimes consumables just become too readily available — loading up on potions at a shop, you have all the benefits of the estus flask(no hidden information of whether you will acquire more, etc.,) without the drawback of having charges that can only be replenished at certain areas.

What's the opinion on this?
Are you aware of any non-dork souls/soulslop games that use a similar mechanic? What about with things other than healy potions?


[edit to correct myself]
Estus Flasks do have hidden information in when you won't find the bonfire, but you know at some point you will replenish your flask.

[A Chinese opium den]

No, I rather dislike them.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Granblue Fantasy Relink has potions with limited charges, but you have 10 charges and the boss fights are usually only 5 minutes long max so you will usually kill the boss before you run out of charges. There are healing spells, but they are not available on demand (they have long cooldowns, some require you to build up combo points to use, and have to be charged up and aimed which isn't helpful because everyone is having to dodge the constant incoming barrage of AoEs so your spell will likely miss) so no one uses them and just minmaxes a glass cannon build to burn down the boss and chug potions.

[gerey]

Obviously, any mechanic is highly dependent on how it interacts with other games mechanics, but I like the Estus Flaks and other similar items, not only because it makes navigating the game world feel tense, but because it actually encourages you to use your resources, instead of hoarding them. I'm one of those guys that doesn't use items, waiting for that "perfect" moment... and then the game ends and I have a massive stockpile of stuff I never bothered using.

Take Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne (or Demon's Souls). First time playing DS1 I was very tense in certain areas where I didn't know when the next bonfire was going to be, while in Bloodborne the tension only really started creeping in when I started running out of blood vials, which was easily remedied by farming them. I think Bloodborne would have benefited from a mechanic similar to the Estus Flask.

[A Chinese opium den]

Granblue Fantasy Relink has potions with limited charges, but you have 10 charges and the boss fights are usually only 5 minutes long max so you will usually kill the boss before you run out of charges. There are healing spells, but they are not available on demand (they have long cooldowns, some require you to build up combo points to use, and have to be charged up and aimed which isn't helpful because everyone is having to dodge the constant incoming barrage of AoEs so your spell will likely miss) so no one uses them and just minmaxes a glass cannon build to burn down the boss and chug potions.

Sounds more like monster hunter tbh.

[Vergil]

S'cool
I'm actually kind of lukewarm on it to be honest. I do like the easy adaptive difficulty of being able to hoard healing supplies if you want/need to.

[gerey]

Oh, and another thing.

Estus Flaks makes it much easier for developers to properly balance the game. They will always have a general idea of just how many healing resources a player will have, at a minimum, for every encounter.

[DemoGraph]

Estus is good.
I find them to be quite similar to potions in Diablo (1 or 2). D potions are purchasable/craftable, but you can't hoard them, because you're limited by sash slots.
D2 town portal also shows why progress points (bonfires) are better than save-anytime teleports - less popamoling, more suspense.

I think that acquirable consumables are more relevant for survival games.

Souls are weak in regards to other consumables (like weapon buffs) - those are either too useless or too rare or dumb.

[Acrux]

Are you aware of any non-dork souls/soulslop games that use a similar mechanic? What about with things other than healy potions?

This sounds kind of like how Fell Seal handles consumable items. Instead of buying a bunch of potions or bombs or whatever, you can craft consumables slots for different items. Those can then be used in every encounter. So, you might have 3 healing potions, 1 mana potion, 1 bomb, 1 rock that and they are reset to maximum after each fight. You might find crafting equipment to let you build another mana potion, or build a stronger healing potion, and once crafted those are then added to the group's inventory.

[rusty_shackleford]

Are you aware of any non-dork souls/soulslop games that use a similar mechanic? What about with things other than healy potions?

This sounds kind of like how Fell Seal handles consumable items. Instead of buying a bunch of potions or bombs or whatever, you can craft consumables slots for different items. Those can then be used in every encounter. So, you might have 3 healing potions, 1 mana potion, 1 bomb, 1 rock that and they are reset to maximum after each fight. You might find crafting equipment to let you build another mana potion, or build a stronger healing potion, and once crafted those are then added to the group's inventory.

Well, that leans more towards them just being N-per-encounter usage abilities hidden as items. Estus flasks lean towards this too, perhaps adding material cost or requiring the services of certain craftsmen to replenish your flask would alleviate this.

[Orvas Dren]

they are just resource management for infants, which is what the average dork souls fan is mentally nowadays

[rusty_shackleford]

they are just resource management for infants, which is what the average dork souls fan is mentally nowadays

Can't really think of any games that have had serious resource management made this century, sergio.

[Zothique]

It keeps you from being a trash healspamming player, ideally. But there are times when Soulsborne games are so ******* hard that it becomes a matter of infuriation over a quality gameplay mechanic.

[Vergil]

they are just resource management for infants, which is what the average dork souls fan is mentally nowadays

Nowadays?

[Brother Michael]

Estus is excellent. Limits total mistakes that bad players make, such as being repeatedly tricked by delayed attacks from a boss.

[Oyster Sauce]

Healing potions need cooldowns. I used flasks to get full health while bosses were hitting me, including the final one in DS1.

[Rand]

For those of you that live under a rock, 'estus flask' is a mechanic popularized by dork souls that works in tandem with the bonfires. You get a flask that can heal you which has a set number of charges, the charges can be increased over the game, and they can be refilled when resting at a campfire.

One thing I'll put in the estus flask corner is that it's a consumable which sees significant usage, most RPG consumables do not — either because you are saving them for when they're needed, too situationally useful, or just not powerful enough to be worth using. The estus flask mechanic completely removes the first issue by replacing it with something akin to Vancian magic — charges per rest, you are encouraged to use it because you are aware of how plentiful the item is, there is no hidden information.
OTOH, sometimes consumables just become too readily available — loading up on potions at a shop, you have all the benefits of the estus flask(no hidden information of whether you will acquire more, etc.,) without the drawback of having charges that can only be replenished at certain areas.

What's the opinion on this?
Are you aware of any non-dork souls/soulslop games that use a similar mechanic? What about with things other than healy potions?


[edit to correct myself]
Estus Flasks do have hidden information in when you won't find the bonfire, but you know at some point you will replenish your flask.

I like it better than Diablo's ****** versions.
The early games were just potion spam.
The later ones had dead enemies drop "health orbs".
Both are acceptable game design, but logically and narratively stupid.

[Xenich]

For those of you that live under a rock, 'estus flask' is a mechanic popularized by dork souls that works in tandem with the bonfires. You get a flask that can heal you which has a set number of charges, the charges can be increased over the game, and they can be refilled when resting at a campfire.

One thing I'll put in the estus flask corner is that it's a consumable which sees significant usage, most RPG consumables do not — either because you are saving them for when they're needed, too situationally useful, or just not powerful enough to be worth using. The estus flask mechanic completely removes the first issue by replacing it with something akin to Vancian magic — charges per rest, you are encouraged to use it because you are aware of how plentiful the item is, there is no hidden information.
OTOH, sometimes consumables just become too readily available — loading up on potions at a shop, you have all the benefits of the estus flask(no hidden information of whether you will acquire more, etc.,) without the drawback of having charges that can only be replenished at certain areas.

What's the opinion on this?
Are you aware of any non-dork souls/soulslop games that use a similar mechanic? What about with things other than healy potions?


[edit to correct myself]
Estus Flasks do have hidden information in when you won't find the bonfire, but you know at some point you will replenish your flask.

Modern day "coin pusher" mechanic. Defeats the point of the game itself.

[Orvas Dren]

they are just resource management for infants, which is what the average dork souls fan is mentally nowadays

Can't really think of any games that have had serious resource management made this century, serjo.

probably because you only play bg3

[The_Mask]

Estus Flasks do have hidden information in when you won't find the bonfire, but you know at some point you will replenish your flask.

The game has a tutorial message on the floor saying that the flask will replenish when sitting down at bonfires.

* * *

Other than that, I think the only other "test" in regards to this mechanic is when you're done ringing the 2 bells of Awakening and when coming back to Andre, he says:

This is the old church. It was abandoned in favour of the church that you passed through. There are paths leading from here to two forbidden planes: Sen's Fortress, and Darkroot Garden. They attract all sorts of lunatics, no-one as cultured as yourself. It's fine to be Undead, but keep a level head, eh? Hah hah hah!

and

Sen's Fortress is an old proving ground built by the ancient gods. It is the only route to the great Anor Londo. Of course, most fools can't even find their way into that fortified deathtrap. But they won't stop trying! Take that bumbling Sir Onion... Hah hah hah!

and

I know little of the Darkroot Garden. Although, I've heard rumours of a divine blacksmith who resides there. Those who get stumped in the Catacombs seek him for divine weapons.

Meaning as soon as you exit Blighttown, you should head into the Catacombs to eventually expand your Estus repertoire, so that you enter O&S with 20 charges. Instead of the usual 5 most people have.

Conclusion: The Estus Flask mechanic was, in 2012, a test that not many people passed. We should have more of these kinds of tests in the future.

[rusty_shackleford]

The game has a tutorial message on the floor saying that the flask will replenish when sitting down at bonfires.

By 'hidden information', I was referring to it in game theory terms — you don't know when the next bonfire is unless you're a dirty cheater who looks it up. But you do know that if you fail, or if you do find a bonfire, your flask will be replenished. Unlike in a typical RPG, where you do not know how many more consumables of a certain type may exist in the game, if any more do at all.

[The_Mask]

The game has a tutorial message on the floor saying that the flask will replenish when sitting down at bonfires.

By 'hidden information', I was referring to it in game theory terms — you don't know when the next bonfire is unless you're a dirty cheater who looks it up. But you do know that if you fail, or if you do find a bonfire, your flask will be replenished. Unlike in a typical RPG, where you do not know how many more consumables of a certain type may exist in the game, if any more do at all.

Yeah, okay. With this I agree.

(The most frustrating experience was The New Londo Ruins with 0 bonfires in the whole area.)

[Vaako]

They are ok but you can also have gameplay mechanics where you just heal by killing tashmobs in fight and they drop a healthorb. Probably even easier to balance a game arround that. The nice thing in souls games is its part of the overall difficulty while exploring, so you are really looking out for more charges for them. That makes heal items parts of the progression what no other games really has. While I didnt like having to farm blood vials in bloodborne, the mechanic that you can get healthback by attacking shortly after you got damaged was pretty nice tho. Works pretty well if you dont have too many flasks. I rarely run out of healing items in eldenring tho.

[WhiteShark]

They're good. It's a bit gamey, but it's the best solution there is in a game with no clock (time/turn limit). Consumables you can endlessly farm tend to either be worthless, to compensate for their availability, or overpowered, because they weren't balanced against the possibility of hoarding a million of them. Only a clock can make the regular sort of consumables into an interesting resource management challenge.

[J1M]

No.

Maybe it would be acceptable if they weren't shoved onto the D-pad. But as is, I'd rather just have a longer health bar.

[rusty_shackleford]

Maybe it would be acceptable if they weren't shoved onto the D-pad. But as is, I'd rather just have a longer health bar.

This is a fair statement. Other than usage time and being able to be interrupted while used, how do estus flasks differ from just giving more HP?

[edit]
I'll add that while they may be functionally similar, there's definitely different psychology to having full health and low or no way to heal yourself than being almost dead.

[J1M]

Maybe it would be acceptable if they weren't shoved onto the D-pad. But as is, I'd rather just have a longer health bar.

This is a fair statement. Other than usage time and being able to be interrupted while used, how do estus flasks differ from just giving more HP?

[edit]
I'll add that while they may be functionally similar, there's definitely different psychology to having full health and low or no way to heal yourself than being almost dead.

Having full health and no flasks doesn't feel as hopeless as running around with 15% hp.

Can't say I've ever felt that being interrupted while trying to heal felt like fun or challenging gameplay, so I hope no professionals are thinking that is a great design. Let's be honest, they are just copying popular game.

How to do it so it wouldn't suck: make it so they are an out-of-combat recovery mechanism.

[WhiteShark]

Other than usage time and being able to be interrupted while used, how do estus flasks differ from just giving more HP?

Those are already pretty big differences, but another is that max health determines your threshold for being downed in one hit even if your total health is effectively higher because of estus.

[J1M]

Other than usage time and being able to be interrupted while used, how do estus flasks differ from just giving more HP?

Those are already pretty big differences, but another is that max health determines your threshold for being downed in one hit even if your total health is effectively higher because of estus.

If we are discussing being downed in one hit as a serious game mechanic in an action game things are already in the state known as dumpster fire.

[WhiteShark]

If we are discussing being downed in one hit as a serious game mechanic in an action game things are already in the state known as dumpster fire.

They're action RPGs. You can build like a glass cannon and go fight things way above your level. If you couldn't be oneshot in those circumstances, it were a poor RPG indeed.