Which RPG has the best class system?

[Raccoon]

inspired by the threads ive been reading here
which RPG has the best class system in your opinion?

[WhiteShark]

It depends on if you mean 'class system' in the generic sense or in the Shacklefordian sense. Personally I'm partial to job systems rather than class systems because I like being able to experiment and adapt my party to the present challenge. I think Voidspire Tactics has a pretty good job system.

[The_Mask]

Most answers will come most likely naming D&D classes, so I feel that you should've taken that out to eliminate banal answers.

That being said, I enjoyed the classes in Morrowind.

[ERYFKRAD]

Whichever ones have Barbarians in them.

[Acrux]

It depends on if you mean 'class system' in the generic sense or in the Shacklefordian sense. Personally I'm partial to job systems rather than class systems because I like being able to experiment and adapt my party to the present challenge. I think Voidspire Tactics has a pretty good job system.

It does, and it's on a pretty good sale right now:

[Tweed]

Wiz style class systems are still top shelf. Nothing like a well rounded education to help get you through the game.

[J1M]

I am partial to early Final Fantasy XI. No idea what happened as the level cap increased with more expansions.

Can walk back choices by switching jobs.
Subjob choice was very meaningful with a handful of viable options for each job.
Martial/caster divide provided some variety.
Party composition had room for variation.
Synergies encouraged jobs to work together when using abilities.

[Sweeper]

PF:KM
And it's not even close.

That being said, I enjoyed the classes in Morrowind.

Morrowind only offered the illusion of classes. You can max out every skill and attribute regardless of class, making the entire thing a moot point.

[maidenhaver]

I can't play Morrowind without VitruvianGuar's mods. One of them caps minor and misc skills.

[Raccoon]

I am partial to early Final Fantasy XI. No idea what happened as the level cap increased with more expansions.

Can walk back choices by switching jobs.
Subjob choice was very meaningful with a handful of viable options for each job.
Martial/caster divide provided some variety.
Party composition had room for variation.
Synergies encouraged jobs to work together when using abilities.

I liked the dual-classing system.
Too bad they never updated the awful PS2-style control system.

[Lhynn]

Whichever ones have Barbarians in them.

I acknowledge this users agenda.

[Tweed]

There should be more games where the races are classes. Like how 1st edition Elf was a class, you had to go to elf practice to become an elf. The RoK series did it.

[Klerik]

Darklands


(SPOILER{ *whispers* I know.....

[MadPreacher]

There should be more games where the races are classes. Like how 1st edition Elf was a class, you had to go to elf practice to become an elf. The RoK series did it.

This has never made sense to me even way back in the days of D&D Basic when humans actually had classes, but elves and dwarves were the class themselves.

[ERYFKRAD]

There should be more games where the races are classes. Like how 1st edition Elf was a class, you had to go to elf practice to become an elf. The RoK series did it.

This has never made sense to me even way back in the days of D&D Basic when humans actually had classes, but elves and dwarves were the class themselves.

When you roll an elf. You play an elf.
Because elves got no class.

[rusty_shackleford]

Race-as-class existed because demi-humans are an archetype. Remember, (proper) classes are archetypes.

If you ask someone to describe a standard fantasy dwarf or elf, the average person would give you one description for each. Someone more well read in mythos and/or fantasy might give you a couple for each, with a lot of overlap between them.
Now ask them to describe a standard human.

Most race-specific classes introduced are just specializations upon that archetype e.g., a dwarven defender.

[Klerik]

RPGs are not very advanced when it comes to expressing archetypes. Card games do a better job. Most rpgs do alot of beating around the bush to try and obscure simply different ways of doing damage. If you want an RPG to do in depth with archetypes, you need to do alot of writing and branching story-paths.

Archetypes are much more interesting than race anyways. A good character creation system should include the base pallette "Race, physical characteristics, stats." and then the chosen archetype to inhabit it.

[J1M]

RPGs are not very advanced when it comes to expressing archetypes. Card games do a better job. Most rpgs do alot of beating around the bush to try and obscure simply different ways of doing damage. If you want an RPG to do in depth with archetypes, you need to do alot of writing and branching story-paths.

Archetypes are much more interesting than race anyways. A good character creation system should include the base pallette "Race, physical characteristics, stats." and then the chosen archetype to inhabit it.

Genetics != Cosmetics.

[Emphyrio]

RPGs are not very advanced when it comes to expressing archetypes. Card games do a better job. Most rpgs do alot of beating around the bush to try and obscure simply different ways of doing damage. If you want an RPG to do in depth with archetypes, you need to do alot of writing and branching story-paths.

Archetypes are much more interesting than race anyways. A good character creation system should include the base pallette "Race, physical characteristics, stats." and then the chosen archetype to inhabit it.

please explain further what you mean. What card game are you talking about?

[Emphyrio]

I am not big on RPGs where the whole "game" is figuring out the optimal stats in character creation and die-rolling to hit enemies. There isn't much point in even having stat attributes as an option in d&d games. One 18-str 6-chr fighter is just like every other 18-str 6-chr fighter.

Troubleshooter has the best tactical character building of any RPG I've played. A character might be the "swordsman" class but he will play very differently depending on which masteries you give him. You can make it so that he gets a free attack every time an enemy moves adjacent to him, or a free attack after he's attacked in melee, make him run fast, make him inflict bleeding debuff and do 200% extra damage against bleeding enemies, 6 million hp and damage resist, get extra stats when he's outnumbered, high crit chance, instakills, etc. And you can change your build whenever you want and see what you like better. It's so much more engaging than these rpgs where your "build" that you're locked into all game is deciding whether to take the perk that gives +1hp/level or the one that gives +5% accuracy and +1 damage when using a short sword.

[Klerik]

RPGs are not very advanced when it comes to expressing archetypes. Card games do a better job. Most rpgs do alot of beating around the bush to try and obscure simply different ways of doing damage. If you want an RPG to do in depth with archetypes, you need to do alot of writing and branching story-paths.

Archetypes are much more interesting than race anyways. A good character creation system should include the base pallette "Race, physical characteristics, stats." and then the chosen archetype to inhabit it.

please explain further what you mean. What card game are you talking about?

All of them

Get ready for a long journey of learning you're going to jump off of as soon as you begin.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I prefer for there to be narrowly defined class fantasies. Ie, Dragoon from FF, Demon Hunter, etc. The narrower the class fantasy, the more memorable and potent it feels to me, and it also leaves more room for other classes to be added. Whereas if you have overly broad classes like "warrior" or "mage", then the classes feel too vague/generic, and it becomes harder for the devs to add new classes that don't feel like they are rehashing or stepping on the toes of another class.

Mechanically, I quite liked Final Fantasy Tactics' and FF11's job/subjob system, where you can equip a main job and then also equip a subjob and get some stuff from that second job. Kinda like multiclassing but more straightforward. I think FF11 jobs struck the right balance of having enough of different tools to be able to do different things (ie, Dark Knight having a stun that can also be used to generate aggro, heavy armor, a damage boost, and magic to deal magic damage and detonate magic burst), but not being so versatile so as to eliminate the need for specialization.

RPGs are not very advanced when it comes to expressing archetypes. Card games do a better job. Most rpgs do alot of beating around the bush to try and obscure simply different ways of doing damage.

I think this has more to do with unimaginative encounter design, where most encounters are "kill X to win" fights. SRPGs offer much more interesting scenarios where perhaps a boss is so dangerous, you cannot hope to kill the boss at that point, and instead need to stall for time. Or scenarios where you are pushing a cart and need to fend off overbearing waves of enemies, in which case crowd control becomes relevant. Etc. You see this emerge even in games like World of Warcraft which is mostly "kill X to win", where on certain mythic+ tournaments you saw teams where rather than kill all of the mobs, instead one of the players would aggro very powerful trash mobs and then flee (ie druid or monk because of their mobility) while the rest of the team went on ahead to try to kill the boss in time.

[UltraFan123]

Huh, the FF11 class system reminds me of the one from an MMO that may or may not ever be released called Ashes of Creation, where you get the choice to either specialize in one job or complement it with a secondary one.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Huh, the FF11 class system reminds me of the one from an MMO that may or may not ever be released called Ashes of Creation, where you get the choice to either specialize in one job or complement it with a secondary one.

Guild Wars 1 also allowed you to equip a second class. I think the most common term for it in Western games is "multiclassing", but with that term it's not clear as to how much of each class you get and how it varies from game to game. Whereas the term "subjob" makes it more clear that your main job is your main thing and you are only getting some stuff from your subjob.

[UltraFan123]

This is the comment I made time ago regarding AoC's job class system.

I like it where they give you a weaker secondary. If they add a bit of "learning" other stuff on top then that's fine.

I'm reminded of the class system that the never-coming MMO Ashes of Creation will supposedly have.

Sorry for the low quality pic since this is the only one I could find.

The idea of giving you the choice to specialize in just one thing or have a secondary sub-class to complement your main one always sounds good for player freedom and customization.

In the class chart above it also shows how the primary class that was chosen first affects the trajectory of how the secondary class will develop the build.

Starting first as a [Fighter] then picking [Mage] as a side makes you a [Spellsword] that uses magic to complement melee combat, while picking the classes in opposite order instead makes you a [Battle Mage] that uses weapons to complement spellcasting.

I would really like it if one day there's a single-player CRPG that implements a class combination system like this one.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

This is the comment I made time ago regarding AoC's job class system.

I like it where they give you a weaker secondary. If they add a bit of "learning" other stuff on top then that's fine.

I'm reminded of the class system that the never-coming MMO Ashes of Creation will supposedly have.

Sorry for the low quality pic since this is the only one I could find.

The idea of giving you the choice to specialize in just one thing or have a secondary sub-class to complement your main one always sounds good for player freedom and customization.

In the class chart above it also shows how the primary class that was chosen first affects the trajectory of how the secondary class will develop the build.

Starting first as a [Fighter] then picking [Mage] as a side makes you a [Spellsword] that uses magic to complement melee combat, while picking the classes in opposite order instead makes you a [Battle Mage] that uses weapons to complement spellcasting.

I would really like it if one day there's a single-player CRPG that implements a class combination system like this one.

Is a mage subclass equipped on a fighter really any different from a mage subclass equipped on a rogue? As in the mage abilities and mechanics are actually different depending on the main class? Or is it just fancy naming?

[J1M]

Huh, the FF11 class system reminds me of the one from an MMO that may or may not ever be released called Ashes of Creation, where you get the choice to either specialize in one job or complement it with a secondary one.

Guild Wars 1 also allowed you to equip a second class. I think the most common term for it in Western games is "multiclassing", but with that term it's not clear as to how much of each class you get and how it varies from game to game. Whereas the term "subjob" makes it more clear that your main job is your main thing and you are only getting some stuff from your subjob.

I would say the difference is that a subjob is like an equipment slot. There is no benefit to leaving it unfilled, your choices are limited to a human-friendly number, and enumerated.

Multiclassing is about foregoing the additional benefits of one class in exchange for the benefits of another. Hopefully resulting in a synergy or at least an interesting mechanical interaction. The number of viable options are numerous, the order they are selected can matter, and there are an even more overwhelming number of options that would lead to regret.