What's your opinion on quest logs?

[Vergil]

Gotta have it. Morrowind's journal with a topics of interests system was nice.

[SoLong]

Quest logs record information a sane person would ask during the investigation (direction of the target, steps that need to be taken for the quest) but which would cause normal game dialogue to get incredibly bloated if you had to do it every. single. time!

Not to mention that if I take a break and forget something I'd have to sit through that long *** dialogue tree again, hunting for the one piece of relevant info.

[J1M]

I like quest logs but not indicators of exactly where to go because without a quest log entry I don't trust the developer has actually implemented a script that will react to player actions.

A character saying "I sure wish I had a shield to protect myself from bandits" is worldbuilding, not a player opportunity, without a quest log entry. That may not be how I would like things to be, but it certainly is the state of the industry with the current people in it.

[Tweed]

Notebook and pen, all the way. And this was a game in a series that started streamlining by including a quest log. I still took down manual notes.

My eyes fell upon H, R, I, O, K, T, F, P, C -> PITCHFORK and immediately knew this was a notelist for XEEN before I saw any other part of the page.

[Element]

I rarely check them and expect the information to be on point at a glance. I hate having to sift through wordcel sperging.
A tagging system would be nice, but a simple sort of the quests by area where they were received and by location which they want you to visit next would cover 95% of what I need. If that's not on the cards then a notebook would be preferable.

[Rand]

Nice. If people have notes from previous RPG runs, post them here.

Exile III.

► Show Spoiler

I have tons more.

[Rand]

I like my character taking quest notes I can refer to in-game.
Bonus points if I can add notes to them manually.
I prefer it to be game lore accurate, like Fallout and Fallout 2.

Morrowind's journal generally sucked and blew. But it was an honorable attempt at something new.

The one thing I do not want is on-screen quest stage notifications and completion pop-ups, map markers, and on screen pointers. Ever.

[Rand]

ATOM RPG has an acceptable quest log.



There is even at least one micro-quest where it is not logged, because the asker says not to, because his request is not very important, so your character doesn't. You have to remember yourself, for a trivial reward.

[Tweed]

There's one event in Warframe where Alad V gives you "Hot" and "Cold" hints as you get closer to an objective and chastises you for not being able to find anything that isn't marked on your map.

They never did anything like that ever again.

[Xenich]

They're fine and games that try to make you take manual notes to bring back that "old school" feel are just being stupid posers. Nobody misses that crap. I dare you to play The Magic Candle without a guide, take your own notes and tell me you still want to play your games that way.

If you haven't done it in a while (ie got lazy with all the modern hand out design), it can be a bit difficult to get back into swing, but once you do it is better I think. I did this several years ago going back through old games. I bought some nice graph paper and went to town. I later picked up Grid Cartographer as well to make it easier by popping on a second screen and doing my note taking and mapping there.

By the way, this is the software.



Anyone ever use it? Great util for older games.

[Nemesis]

I have tons more.

Nice. Post 'em.

[Magick]

Steam Notes is also pretty good now, too.

[Rand]

Steam Notes is also pretty good now, too.

I SOMEHOW NEVER HEARD OF OR NOTICED THIS.

[Magick]

Steam Notes is also pretty good now, too.

I SOMEHOW NEVER HEARD OF OR NOTICED THIS.

It's pretty recent. Some games I had some notepad site open in my browser lol, now they've integrated notes, and even a timer.
I hate the new chromium ********, but that's one of of the better changes.

[BosanskiSeljak]

Have it toggleable.

I.e. design the game around not needing one but have it optional if you want to track.

I usually take notes anyways because looking at a quest log ruins the atmosphere for me, unless it's written in a way that makes sense in game/world, i.e. Gothic.

[Big Red Dog]

Should the game automatically log quests for you, or should it expect the player to be taking notes?

Are there any RPGs that allow for 'assisted' note taking? e.g., being able to take notes at any point in time, and associating it with your location, NPC you're talking to, or just adding pre-defined 'tags' such as keywords mentioned, NPCs known, items, etc.,?

no quest log means that you have to rely on akhmed gupta making sure to have the npc tell you that you have to backtrack for 3 hours to press the red button if you want to progress rather than spending his entire work week writing dialogue for the mage that polymorphs into a cow for you to ****

[Xenich]

While early games required "out of game" note taking due to various design limitation and reasoning, it still is a defining factor of the style of play these games represented.

The thing I noticed in this is that with newer games over the years, most of the intellectual interaction has been removed using the excuses like "mundane repetition" or the like, but the fact is, note taking itself is an intellectual skill. It is the ability to view something and take away relevant details from your observation. It is the very basic aspect of reading comprehension and understanding. It really is key to the process even though it "appears" as if it is simply a motor task and the success or failure of a player can ride on their lack of attention or inability to discern these clues in play.

I am not saying that some automation isn't acceptable, but those things should be in the form of utils to make it easier for the player to take notes (ie in game note taking, customizable markers, etc...). With the modern auto based system, what you get is a dumbing down of the play which is why you have people playing games where they do entire quest lines and have no clue what the quest was about. Take away those, well... essentially "cheats" and the player then has to read, think about what is relevant from what they read and then attempt to apply it to their progression in the game which to be frank... is the entire ******* point of play in these types of games.

[TKVNC]

The issue with quest logs is that to have a quest log, the quest has to be scripted, and linear (unless it's AI driven, but that's a new, probably unexplored territory)

TTRPG is the only 'real' form of RPG since it reacts accordingly (the DM can change whatever they want on the fly, at least if they're not a ******). Having a quest log is not an issue, it's just a symptom of poor game design.

[DarkandGloomyname]

Notebook and pen, all the way. And this was a game in a series that started streamlining by including a quest log. I still took down manual notes.

I used to do something similar as a kid. You know how the goldbox games always had those thick lore booklets which mainly held the maps and the referenced dialog? I used to write notes in them and along the margins. Killed any possibility of selling them for money, but I was 11 and not thinking ahead. Most of the notes I kept were related to character builds and how I could further eke out more damage in another playthrough by making the most broken party.

I liked the way Gothic 1/2 did quest logs. Just basic info to let you know what you had to do, and you just sought out the npc or item that it requested and you did it. If the game design is clean and clever enough, you don't need an indepth quest log. The problem nowadays is that everyone tries to be smart and makes silly quests with inane requirements and dowses every NPC in floating icons. I blame WoW for that.

[rusty_shackleford]

Gotta have it. Morrowind's journal with a topics of interests system was nice.

This leans towards what I was discussing prior, I think. The automation of the questlog has been taken too far and removed any player interaction. Going back the other way while retaining some of the UX niceties would be a happy spot for me.

[rusty_shackleford]

Ideally, I think quests in the modern explicit sense wouldn't exist. No quest log, no checkboxes, no XP for completing them. Instead there would be information and requests, which one would have to track himself, and those could be pursued to their natural outcomes: loot, rewards, and favors. The game would provide a journal and a map, and the player would be in charge of maintaining both. All of this is part of the intellectual side of RPGs, which is really supposed to be the domain of the player.

If the player character happened to formerly be say, a skilled accountant expected to record transactions in meticulous detail, should this not also carry over to his ability to record his adventure activities?

[Rand]

I am not saying that some automation isn't acceptable, but those things should be in the form of utils to make it easier for the player to take notes (ie in game note taking, customizable markers, etc...). With the modern auto based system, what you get is a dumbing down of the play which is why you have people playing games where they do entire quest lines and have no clue what the quest was about. Take away those, well... essentially "cheats" and the player then has to read, think about what is relevant from what they read and then attempt to apply it to their progression in the game which to be frank... is the entire ******* point of play in these types of games.

Exactly. It's a real problem.
Take the Oblivion Dark Brotherhood quests, written by everyone's favorite hack, Emil Pagliarulo.
People play the quests and most seem to think it's good. It's not.
They think it's good because it has twists and turns they don't see coming, and it's complex for an Elder Scrolls game.
But if you have half a brain and think about what's going on and read the things the quests give you, you see that something's really wrong with the dead drop messages, but Emil's writing railroads you.
You HAVE to do the drops, even though you know something is wrong. They're written weird and don't seem to be reasonable targets. But you literally can't because you can't start an investigation as the quests don't let you. It's do the drop missions or nothing.
Worse, if you find the head early, figuring out the weirdo that's behind all of the nonsense, you CAN'T do anything with it. He won't even react to it, and the character definitely should.
Emil wrote the plot for a stupid, thoughtless character, and gave zero leeway for a smart person's actions. Guess why? Because stupid people can't write intelligent people as they can't understand what they might learn, think, or do. And Emil's not smart, even though he thinks he is.

[WhiteShark]

Ideally, I think quests in the modern explicit sense wouldn't exist. No quest log, no checkboxes, no XP for completing them. Instead there would be information and requests, which one would have to track himself, and those could be pursued to their natural outcomes: loot, rewards, and favors. The game would provide a journal and a map, and the player would be in charge of maintaining both. All of this is part of the intellectual side of RPGs, which is really supposed to be the domain of the player.

If the player character happened to formerly be say, a skilled accountant expected to record transactions in meticulous detail, should this not also carry over to his ability to record his adventure activities?

What if your character is a skilled tactician? Should he also make the turn-by-turn combat decisions for you? The problem is that, if it's to be a game, there must be an area in which the player exercises his personal abilities. In RPGs, this is the intellectual domain: the player does the thinking. The more you offload this to the character, the more you make the player a spectator instead of a participant.

[rusty_shackleford]

Ideally, I think quests in the modern explicit sense wouldn't exist. No quest log, no checkboxes, no XP for completing them. Instead there would be information and requests, which one would have to track himself, and those could be pursued to their natural outcomes: loot, rewards, and favors. The game would provide a journal and a map, and the player would be in charge of maintaining both. All of this is part of the intellectual side of RPGs, which is really supposed to be the domain of the player.

If the player character happened to formerly be say, a skilled accountant expected to record transactions in meticulous detail, should this not also carry over to his ability to record his adventure activities?

What if your character is a skilled tactician? Should he also make the turn-by-turn combat decisions for you? The problem is that, if it's to be a game, there must be an area in which the player exercises his personal abilities. In RPGs, this is the intellectual domain: the player does the thinking. The more you offload this to the character, the more you make the player a spectator instead of a participant.

Being a skilled tactician in DAO gave you more tactic slots. I disagree with a part of that design choice(IMO, it should be linked to the character with the highest tactics, as if they're leading the party). I think that was definitely a way someone who is a skilled tactician could be implemented, yes.