Fable: The Rings of Power

[Bertram_Tung]

Enjoy the things you're nostalgic for while recognizing that they have woke elements and demand none in the future. You don't need to do mental gymnastics to try to label something as non-woke when it clearly is. There's nobody on this forum who doesn't like a piece of media with abhorrently evil real-life political messaging in it and there's no transnigger who doesn't like something cool and good.

I never played Fable, so I don't have a dog in that fight. But generally speaking, this such a disingenuous argument. It's just another version of the leftist gaslighting stance "[Insert franchise here] was always woke, chud!" as a way to justify woke ****.

Treating modern, pervasive, systemically & ideologically driven content as the same phenomenon as isolated or incidental elements in older media is dishonest. Or at best it's coming from a zoomer who has no concept of what things were like before the last 15 years.

I sometimes think this reaction comes from a kind of subconscious defensiveness. Acknowledging that something meaningful was changed or lost before they became aware of it would force zoomers to confront that loss, the loss of a sane world that zoomers will never get to experience, so it is easier to believe that nothing fundamentally changed in the first place.

you're woke

Thank you for your concession.

[Kolgrim]

Enjoy the things you're nostalgic for while recognizing that they have woke elements and demand none in the future.

I agree. This is the best stance to take if the thing you like is indeed pushing bad messaging.

You don't need to do mental gymnastics to try to label something as non-woke when it clearly is.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out there is often a gray area with these things. Messaging is often left up to interpretation especially in regards to old media as the creators weren't always vocal about their intentions like modern artists. There's also the discussion of when does something become "woke." How much messaging must be included for something to become woke exactly? If we had Holocaust simulator 2000 for example but you were able to play a black man enacting a Shoah then is it woke because there's a black character? Where's the line exactly? I'm just saying that I believe this is a more nuanced topic and not always black and white.

[Bertram_Tung]

You don't need to do mental gymnastics to try to label something as non-woke when it clearly is.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out there is often a gray area with these things. Messaging is often left up to interpretation especially in regards to old media as the creators weren't always vocal about their intentions like modern artists. There's also the discussion of when does something become "woke." How much messaging must be included for something to become woke exactly? If we had Holocaust simulator 2000 for example but you were able to play a black man enacting a Shoah then is it woke because there's a black character? Where's the line exactly? I'm just saying that I believe this is a more nuanced topic and not always black and white.

The simplest (but not singular) difference is that the “woke elements” in older media were incidental or reflective of genuine artistic choices, not the result of corporate mandates, institutional incentives, or other kinds of systemic enforcement.

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

[Stack of Turtles]

If we had Holocaust simulator 2000 for example but you were able to play a black man enacting a Shoah then is it woke because there's a black character?

Yes.

(a holocaust simulator is inherently woke anyway because nazis are libtards)

[Stack of Turtles]

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

They always were, but that was also always, including now, a "genuine artistic choice" because the creators wanted it to be.

[Bertram_Tung]

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

They always were, but that was also always, including now, a "genuine artistic choice" because the creators wanted it to be.

Nope. Another zoomer talking about a world he can never comprehend.

[A Chinese opium den]

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

They always were, but that was also always, including now, a "genuine artistic choice" because the creators wanted it to be.

Nope. Another zoomer talking about a world he can never comprehend.

Zoomers are physiologically incapable of understanding a time where it wasn't an issue for ******* to be put in movies, this is true.

[Vaako]

For those which missed the stream.

[A Chinese opium den]

For those which missed the stream.

Why does synthetic man look like an Italian immigrant now?

[A Chinese opium den]

Gay sex ****** games are woke even if you enjoyed them as a kid

I understand the sentiment but if you take that hard-line approach to everything then almost every RPG or JRPG is woke. FF7? Cloud dressed as a woman so woke. Kotor? Woke because Bastila is a girlboss and there's a gay romance. The list goes on and on. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I'd rather push back and see a series redeemed then just abandon it for the **** to co-opt.

Yeah but imagine if every time devs made a really good game they didn't add sections where you have to pretend to be a woman to progress the main story. The prospective audience for any new promising games with gay **** in it could embargo the game until the devs are forced to capitulate and patch out the gay stuff, its never been more achievable now that games can be changed in real time over opinionated players pressuring and harassing devs. We would be fools to not use the benefits of modern times, and harassing libtards who put annoying **** in videogames to spite you is a Divine mission.

[Vaako]

For those which missed the stream.

Why does synthetic man look like an Italian immigrant now?

Think thats because he played GTA 4 and to fit in with the character there. And because he is...

[Oyster Sauce]

You don't need to do mental gymnastics to try to label something as non-woke when it clearly is.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out there is often a gray area with these things. Messaging is often left up to interpretation especially in regards to old media as the creators weren't always vocal about their intentions like modern artists. There's also the discussion of when does something become "woke." How much messaging must be included for something to become woke exactly? If we had Holocaust simulator 2000 for example but you were able to play a black man enacting a Shoah then is it woke because there's a black character? Where's the line exactly? I'm just saying that I believe this is a more nuanced topic and not always black and white.

The simplest (but not singular) difference is that the “woke elements” in older media were incidental or reflective of genuine artistic choices, not the result of corporate mandates, institutional incentives, or other kinds of systemic enforcement.

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

The incidental genuine artistic choice that wasn't forced by higher up suits in question:

Lionhead co-founder Peter Molyneux says he had to "fight" to get same-sex marriage in Fable, as Microsoft was wary about its inclusion. Molyneux says Lionhead "absolutely insisted on giving people choice in the game", despite concerns about extending that to more marriage options.

"I had to fly over to Microsoft and talk to the senior management to justify gay marriage," says Molyneux, speaking about some of the issues Lionhead ran into during Fable 2's development. He adds that Microsoft wasn't "against it" personally, but implies that upper management felt it wasn't necessary for the game.

Same-sex marriage was available in the first Fable, but sexuality was handled very differently. Fable 2 would be the first game in which NPCs had their own sexualities, barring the player from hooking up with anyone who wasn't interested in their gender. One quest even centres around helping a man come out to his father, as he tries to set his son up with a woman.

[Bertram_Tung]

I'm not. I'm just pointing out there is often a gray area with these things. Messaging is often left up to interpretation especially in regards to old media as the creators weren't always vocal about their intentions like modern artists. There's also the discussion of when does something become "woke." How much messaging must be included for something to become woke exactly? If we had Holocaust simulator 2000 for example but you were able to play a black man enacting a Shoah then is it woke because there's a black character? Where's the line exactly? I'm just saying that I believe this is a more nuanced topic and not always black and white.

The simplest (but not singular) difference is that the “woke elements” in older media were incidental or reflective of genuine artistic choices, not the result of corporate mandates, institutional incentives, or other kinds of systemic enforcement.

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

The incidental genuine artistic choice that wasn't forced by higher up suits in question:

Lionhead co-founder Peter Molyneux says he had to "fight" to get same-sex marriage in Fable, as Microsoft was wary about its inclusion. Molyneux says Lionhead "absolutely insisted on giving people choice in the game", despite concerns about extending that to more marriage options.

"I had to fly over to Microsoft and talk to the senior management to justify gay marriage," says Molyneux, speaking about some of the issues Lionhead ran into during Fable 2's development. He adds that Microsoft wasn't "against it" personally, but implies that upper management felt it wasn't necessary for the game.

Same-sex marriage was available in the first Fable, but sexuality was handled very differently. Fable 2 would be the first game in which NPCs had their own sexualities, barring the player from hooking up with anyone who wasn't interested in their gender. One quest even centres around helping a man come out to his father, as he tries to set his son up with a woman.

I started off by saying I wasn't talking about Fable. I've never played any of the fable games. I said I was talking about your general argument. Lrn2Read

Edit: funny that you looked that up for no reason tho

[Bertram_Tung]

Gay sex ****** games are woke even if you enjoyed them as a kid

I understand the sentiment but if you take that hard-line approach to everything then almost every RPG or JRPG is woke. FF7? Cloud dressed as a woman so woke. Kotor? Woke because Bastila is a girlboss and there's a gay romance. The list goes on and on. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I'd rather push back and see a series redeemed then just abandon it for the **** to co-opt.

Yeah but imagine if every time devs made a really good game they didn't add sections where you have to pretend to be a woman to progress the main story. The prospective audience for any new promising games with gay **** in it could embargo the game until the devs are forced to capitulate and patch out the gay stuff, its never been more achievable now that games can be changed in real time over opinionated players pressuring and harassing devs. We would be fools to not use the benefits of modern times, and harassing libtards who put annoying **** in videogames to spite you is a Divine mission.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.
That's actually one of the many reasons it's different now than it used to be, which (I think) is part of what Kolgrim was saying.

[A Chinese opium den]

I understand the sentiment but if you take that hard-line approach to everything then almost every RPG or JRPG is woke. FF7? Cloud dressed as a woman so woke. Kotor? Woke because Bastila is a girlboss and there's a gay romance. The list goes on and on. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I'd rather push back and see a series redeemed then just abandon it for the **** to co-opt.

Yeah but imagine if every time devs made a really good game they didn't add sections where you have to pretend to be a woman to progress the main story. The prospective audience for any new promising games with gay **** in it could embargo the game until the devs are forced to capitulate and patch out the gay stuff, its never been more achievable now that games can be changed in real time over opinionated players pressuring and harassing devs. We would be fools to not use the benefits of modern times, and harassing libtards who put annoying **** in videogames to spite you is a Divine mission.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that.
That's actually one of the many reasons it's different now than it used to be, which (I think) is part of what Kolgrim was saying.

Fair, its hard not to be overly harsh when looking back in posterity. But the least you can do is to admit that the things in the past were less gay only because the heat in the pot hadn't been brought to a boil yet. If even many of the all time classics had annoying woke moments in them, that just means we haven't seen the true golden age of gaming yet. Better times are yet to come.

[Roguey]

Remember https://www.gamespot.com/articles/micro ... 0-6439777/

As part of Eurogamer's fascinating, in-depth report on Fable developer Lionhead Studios comes a story about a time when the team pitched Microsoft on the idea of putting a black woman on the cover of Fable III. According to former art director John McCormack, Microsoft vetoed the idea.

He was not pleased.

"They were going, 'You can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman.' And I was like, 'Yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want.' [According to McCormack, Microsoft said] 'No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's f**king it. Stop the arguing.' I was like, 'F**k you!' That was a huge fight."

"They said, 'What's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, 'I don't know.' They went, 'Princess and the Frog. Work it out.' I was like, "F**k you, man.' I hated it."

McComack went on to say that Microsoft "missed the point" of Fable III overall by putting a traditional-looking, male hero on the cover.

"I was screaming at them in conference calls," he said. "I lost it at that point, because they just weren't getting the game. Especially because we were the first ever game that had gay marriage, we were about breaking down walls. It was meant to be funny and mature. They just took none of it and just did the usual white guy with a sword on the front. **** it! You missed the point!"

Bongs are gigawoke. Look at what they did to their own country. Now the game they're making reflects that.

[ThulsaDoomer]

Gay sex ****** games are woke even if you enjoyed them as a kid

I understand the sentiment but if you take that hard-line approach to everything then almost every RPG or JRPG is woke. FF7? Cloud dressed as a woman so woke. Kotor? Woke because Bastila is a girlboss and there's a gay romance. The list goes on and on. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I'd rather push back and see a series redeemed then just abandon it for the **** to co-opt.

Disregard the term woke, as it's meaning is new and still struggling to be defined by society. Instead, just use progressive or subversive, these are agreed upon words with clear meanings and implications. If we check your examples against these definitions, then yes, they are ideologically tainted. The problem is narrowing your view to modernist terms, that isn't how older ideologues operated when they created the media of yesteryear. What you guys are trying to find here is whether or not some inclusions, which we would consider radical liberal propaganda, is intentional or unintentional, provided the developers or lead developers saw these concepts as a "normal trajectory" of society and included them because that is what they genuinely believed, and not because they wanted to moralise on an audience. I've broached this subject before and it's a very murky area, it is why analysis is so important if we want to tackle subversive media.

Anyway, KOTOR is woke, Bioware was already hiring homosexuals and allowing them to contribute fetish content to their games by this period. Refer to my narrative cohesion thread for DA:O. The dilemma you seem to be having is accepting that a lot of media parroted as great was created by deviants whose morals simply eroded as society became more accepting of them. Prior to that, they had to hide a lot of their ideological nonsense, as once upon a time corporate executives preferred giving fans what they desired as it resulted in large sales, and not catering to every ******** whim of a developer.

[Bertram_Tung]

I'm not. I'm just pointing out there is often a gray area with these things. Messaging is often left up to interpretation especially in regards to old media as the creators weren't always vocal about their intentions like modern artists. There's also the discussion of when does something become "woke." How much messaging must be included for something to become woke exactly? If we had Holocaust simulator 2000 for example but you were able to play a black man enacting a Shoah then is it woke because there's a black character? Where's the line exactly? I'm just saying that I believe this is a more nuanced topic and not always black and white.

The simplest (but not singular) difference is that the “woke elements” in older media were incidental or reflective of genuine artistic choices, not the result of corporate mandates, institutional incentives, or other kinds of systemic enforcement.

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

The incidental genuine artistic choice that wasn't forced by higher up suits in question:

Lionhead co-founder Peter Molyneux says he had to "fight" to get same-sex marriage in Fable, as Microsoft was wary about its inclusion. Molyneux says Lionhead "absolutely insisted on giving people choice in the game", despite concerns about extending that to more marriage options.

"I had to fly over to Microsoft and talk to the senior management to justify gay marriage," says Molyneux, speaking about some of the issues Lionhead ran into during Fable 2's development. He adds that Microsoft wasn't "against it" personally, but implies that upper management felt it wasn't necessary for the game.

Same-sex marriage was available in the first Fable, but sexuality was handled very differently. Fable 2 would be the first game in which NPCs had their own sexualities, barring the player from hooking up with anyone who wasn't interested in their gender. One quest even centres around helping a man come out to his father, as he tries to set his son up with a woman.

Re-reading this, I’m struggling to see how this is supposed to damage my argument or support yours. It seems like the quotation you shared actually strengthened my point.

You’re giving an example of a developer fighting against the publisher to include same-sex marriage. That’s exactly the kind of artistic choice I was describing, rather than being corporately mandated. Today the positions would be reversed.

I guess if your argument is "Well he was in charge of the studio so he is the higher up!" But being the co-founder of the studio doesn’t erase the fact that he was negotiating against a higher-level corporate entity (Microsoft) that had veto power over the content.

[Tangerine]

I don't want ******* in my games regardless of when they were made.

[rusty_shackleford]

woke = gay race communism = cultural marxism

[Oyster Sauce]

The simplest (but not singular) difference is that the “woke elements” in older media were incidental or reflective of genuine artistic choices, not the result of corporate mandates, institutional incentives, or other kinds of systemic enforcement.

Today such elements are typically baked in intentionally as part of a coordinated, ideologically-driven agenda.

The incidental genuine artistic choice that wasn't forced by higher up suits in question:

Lionhead co-founder Peter Molyneux says he had to "fight" to get same-sex marriage in Fable, as Microsoft was wary about its inclusion. Molyneux says Lionhead "absolutely insisted on giving people choice in the game", despite concerns about extending that to more marriage options.

"I had to fly over to Microsoft and talk to the senior management to justify gay marriage," says Molyneux, speaking about some of the issues Lionhead ran into during Fable 2's development. He adds that Microsoft wasn't "against it" personally, but implies that upper management felt it wasn't necessary for the game.

Same-sex marriage was available in the first Fable, but sexuality was handled very differently. Fable 2 would be the first game in which NPCs had their own sexualities, barring the player from hooking up with anyone who wasn't interested in their gender. One quest even centres around helping a man come out to his father, as he tries to set his son up with a woman.

Re-reading this, I’m struggling to see how this is supposed to damage my argument or support yours. It seems like the quotation you shared actually strengthened my point.

You’re giving an example of a developer fighting against the publisher to include same-sex marriage. That’s exactly the kind of artistic choice I was describing, rather than being corporately mandated. Today the positions would be reversed.

I guess if your argument is "Well he was in charge of the studio so he is the higher up!" But being the co-founder of the studio doesn’t erase the fact that he was negotiating against a higher-level corporate entity (Microsoft) that had veto power over the content.

It doesn't matter why every single man in the British fantasy game wants to have gay sex with you

[ThulsaDoomer]

I don't want ******* in my games regardless of when they were made.

Nostalgia sure does blind people to the reality of the past. Just because I enjoyed something when I was 12 doesn't mean I need to enjoy it now, some things are better left in the past.

[Bertram_Tung]

Remember https://www.gamespot.com/articles/micro ... 0-6439777/

As part of Eurogamer's fascinating, in-depth report on Fable developer Lionhead Studios comes a story about a time when the team pitched Microsoft on the idea of putting a black woman on the cover of Fable III. According to former art director John McCormack, Microsoft vetoed the idea.

He was not pleased.

"They were going, 'You can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman.' And I was like, 'Yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want.' [According to McCormack, Microsoft said] 'No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's f**king it. Stop the arguing.' I was like, 'F**k you!' That was a huge fight."

"They said, 'What's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, 'I don't know.' They went, 'Princess and the Frog. Work it out.' I was like, "F**k you, man.' I hated it."

McComack went on to say that Microsoft "missed the point" of Fable III overall by putting a traditional-looking, male hero on the cover.

"I was screaming at them in conference calls," he said. "I lost it at that point, because they just weren't getting the game. Especially because we were the first ever game that had gay marriage, we were about breaking down walls. It was meant to be funny and mature. They just took none of it and just did the usual white guy with a sword on the front. **** it! You missed the point!"

Bongs are gigawoke. Look at what they did to their own country. Now the game they're making reflects that.

That's another good example to support what I was saying. The woke artist was fighting to put nigress on the cover. Microsoft was like "**** no, we want to make money".

Today the position would be reversed (if you can actually find a dev who isn't a ****** anymore). Vavra is the nearest example I can think of off the top of my head. He got punished for KCD1 and was forced to bend the knee for KCD2 by corporate overlords. (Yes he may actually be a woke *** himself but I suspect he was buck broken.)

[Bertram_Tung]

woke = gay race communism = cultural marxism

Woke is one contemporary branch of cultural Marxism, not the whole thing. Equating the two conflates a subset with the full system.

[Bertram_Tung]

@ThulsaDoomer What are you disagreeing with in my last post? Tell me.

I said that the difference between back then and now is that "woke" inclusion was the decision of the developer, not forced by the Publisher/Corporate backing. Publishers actually wanted to make money back then, so they (rightfully) fought against stuff like gay marriage and ******* on the cover. Then Oyster and Roguey both provided examples proving exactly what I said, where the developer was fighting to include gay/****** **** and the publishers were against it.

(If you were just disagreeing with what I said about Vavra, okay then - I don't know a ton about his specific situation, it was just intended to draw a parallel to how the dynamic has changed because woke **** is pushed by publishers and other corporate funding now.)

[Kolgrim]

Gay sex ****** games are woke even if you enjoyed them as a kid

I understand the sentiment but if you take that hard-line approach to everything then almost every RPG or JRPG is woke. FF7? Cloud dressed as a woman so woke. Kotor? Woke because Bastila is a girlboss and there's a gay romance. The list goes on and on. I just don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I'd rather push back and see a series redeemed then just abandon it for the **** to co-opt.

Yeah but imagine if every time devs made a really good game they didn't add sections where you have to pretend to be a woman to progress the main story. The prospective audience for any new promising games with gay **** in it could embargo the game until the devs are forced to capitulate and patch out the gay stuff, its never been more achievable now that games can be changed in real time over opinionated players pressuring and harassing devs. We would be fools to not use the benefits of modern times, and harassing libtards who put annoying **** in videogames to spite you is a Divine mission.

I agree completely with you. We should pressure devs to patch out subversive messaging and yeah FF7 would be a better game if we weren't forced to pretend to be a woman in that one section. I just used it as an example to argue that just because it has one bad moment in it like that doesn't mean the whole product is bad or that the IP isn't worth fighting for.

In my original comment to Oyster Sauce I was just speaking about gaming in general and trying to articulate that we shouldn't cede ground to leftists just because past games may have the occasional liberal idea floated. If we take the stance that we only fight for based games and everything else should be turned over to the left then we'll never win the culture war. That's all I'm saying.

[methoxetamine]

(Yes he may actually be a woke *** himself but I suspect he was buck broken.)

Subversion is firmly embedded in his DNA

[rusty_shackleford]

(Yes he may actually be a woke *** himself but I suspect he was buck broken.)

Subversion is firmly embedded in his DNA

weird how everyone has grandparents that somehow managed to escape from the nazi death camps

[maidenhaver]

(Yes he may actually be a woke *** himself but I suspect he was buck broken.)

Subversion is firmly embedded in his DNA

weird how everyone has grandparents that somehow managed to escape from the nazi death camps

Almost like they weren't death camps and they didn't escape, but were freed. Unfortunately. War makes enemies do ******** ******* moves like release swine from incarceration. "My enemies locked them up for absolutely no reason at all. I will free them and they will love my charity and my occupation."

[Bertram_Tung]

His dear old grandpa sure got into lots of wacky adventures!